How Did Familicide Stop?

[Nettlekid]

Sorry if this has been done to death (haha...ha...) but after deciding to reread the comic for the fourth time or so, and coming to Vaarsuvius' fairly recent lamentations when s/he first realizes the scope of the damage done by the Familicide spell (in Girard's temple), it set me to wondering: Exactly how did Familicide stop at all? Was there a certain number of iterations, of "once-twice-thrice removeds" that it killed off, before stopping? When V says that the spell kill Tarquin's wife, and if she had borne a child it would have slayed the child too, then logically the magic would have then slayed Tarquin, and thus Elan, Nale, and Elan's mother as well, right? If it can so easily get into another continent by just one remarriage, I would expect it to...well, wipe out the world, pretty much. I know that the magnitude of the spell is why V was cowering in shame, but it looks to me like it should have done EVEN MORE damage than it seems to have done.

[NZNinja]

I believe this has the details you're looking for.

EDIT: For clarity, Familicide doesn't jump by marriage, but by blood. So Tarquin's wife's (Penelope) child was killed because she (it was a daughter as best I recall?) was related to the Ancient Black Dragon by virtue of her Draketooth father. Penelope was then killed by Familicide's second step, which is to kill anyone related (again, by blood) to anyone killed in step one.

Tarquin was never in danger; neither was Elan, or Nale. But many more Humans could have been killed if the Draketooths hadn't already been isolated from the general population for several generations.

[rodneyAnonymous]

When V says that the spell kill Tarquin's wife, and if she had borne a child it would have slayed the child too, then logically the magic would have then slayed Tarquin, and thus Elan, Nale, and Elan's mother as well, right?

Incorrect. Step 1 killed the child Penelope had by Orrin (because it shared blood with the black dragon that V cast familicide on), and Step 2 killed Penelope (because she shared blood with the child killed in Step 1). If she had a child by Tarquin, it would be the slain child's half-sibling, and Step 2 would have killed it also.

[Nettlekid]

Oh, so it does only stop on the second iteration. I thought that maybe it would go like "A black dragon is killed because it is related to V's Dragon. Orrin is killed because he is descended of that black dragon. Penelope's child is killed because it is descended of Orrin. Penelope is killed because she shares the blood of the child. Penelope's non-existent child with Tarquin is killed because it shares the blood of Penelope. Tarquin is killed because he shares the blood of that child." And so on. Basically, if you share the blood of a victim, you die. But I guess that's not the strict case?

[rodneyAnonymous]

No, that's not how it works. There are only two steps. Orrin and Orrin/Penelope's child were killed by the same (first) step. Penelope was killed by the second step, and if she had any other children, they'd have been killed by the second step also.

[B. Dandelion]

It might be simplest to explain it this way: The only people who died were either themselves Draketooths (killed in step 1) or had living Draketooth relatives (killed in step 2). The spell makes no further iterations after that.

Penelope isn't a Draketooth. So a hypothetical child of Penelope and Tarquin is also not a Draketooth. Tarquin has no Draketooth relatives, and thus he doesn't die. Penelope and her hypothetical child die because they do have a living Draketooth relative in Orrin's daughter.

[EmperorSarda]

Penelope isn't a Draketooth. So a hypothetical child of Penelope and Tarquin is also not a Draketooth. Tarquin has no Draketooth relatives, and thus he doesn't die. Penelope and her hypothetical child die because they do have a living Draketooth relative in Orrin's daughter.

Though had Tarquin and Penelope had a child, then Tarquin, Nale, Elan and Elan's mother would have been killed as well.

[Douglas]

Though had Tarquin and Penelope had a child, then Tarquin, Nale, Elan and Elan's mother would have been killed as well.

No, they would not.

Step 1: Kill everyone who has a common ancestor with the target, living or dead, reaching all the way back to the original creatures spawned when the world was created.
Step 2: Kill everyone who has a still-living common ancestor with, or is an ancestor of, anyone killed in step 1.

Trace back far enough, and the Ancient Black Dragon shares an ancestor with the Draketooth clan. Thus, the entire Draketooth clan dies in step 1. This includes Penelope's Draketooth child.

In step 2, as things actually happened:
Penelope is an ancestor of her child, and dies. Her parents, if they are alive, would also die. Her siblings, if any, would die if and only if at least one of her parents was alive.

In step 2, with a hypothetical child of Penelope and Tarquin:
Penelope dies as before. The P/T child has a living common ancestor with P's Draketooth child (namely, Penelope herself), and dies. Tarquin does not have a living common ancestor with the Draketooth child, however, and the existence of his child with Penelope does not change that so he lives. Nale, Elan, and all the rest of his family also survive untouched.

The short version: breeding with someone only opens you up to Familicide if your partner is a step 1 target. Penelope was a step 2 target.

[EmperorSarda]

No, they would not.

Step 1: Kill everyone who has a common ancestor with the target, living or dead, reaching all the way back to the original creatures spawned when the world was created.

The Giant actually specified that if the common ancestor is dead, the relative survives.

It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead

I think it depends on if it is recursive or iterative. Because if the spell places Mama Dragon in step 1 and targets everyone who can claim direct relation with them before recursively calling each and every one of those direct blood relations, we eventually get to Penelope and a theoretical child with Tarquin. Penelope in step 1 gets killed because her Draketooth daughter, and then the spell targets all relatives of Penelope; parents, uncles, cousins, etc; placing them in step 1.

So if the theoretical child of Penelope and Tarquin gets targeted, that child gets recursively called to be in step 1, thus slaughtering Tarquin in step 2.

Also:

Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target.

[Draconi Redfir]

someone really needs to draw a familicide family tree or something. maybe that will make explaining this easier

[Douglas]

The Giant actually specified that if the common ancestor is dead, the relative survives.

That was for step 2, not step 1.

I think it depends on if it is recursive or iterative. Because if the spell places Mama Dragon in step 1 and targets everyone who can claim direct relation with them before recursively calling each and every one of those direct blood relations, we eventually get to Penelope and a theoretical child with Tarquin. Penelope in step 1 gets killed because her Draketooth daughter, and then the spell targets all relatives of Penelope; parents, uncles, cousins, etc; placing them in step 1.

There is no recursive call. There's step 1, and there's step 2. That's it. Neither step says "repeat" or "invoke step X again".

So if the theoretical child of Penelope and Tarquin gets targeted, that child gets recursively called to be in step 1, thus slaughtering Tarquin in step 2.

A hypothetical child of P and T being targeted in step 1 would require either P or T to themselves be targeted in step 1. P is a step 2 target, T is not a target at all.

Also:

Ok, so P's siblings are dead regardless. Whether her aunts and uncles were targeted did depend on whether her parents were alive, though.

[Nilehus]

From my understanding, the spell would start with the dragon, travel down the Draketooth family line, and end with Penelope and Orrin's child, since that's the last blood relative in that particular chain.

Step 2 would kill Penelope, her mom, her dad, and anyone related by blood to them. If that's all right, Tarquin would be spared, since he has no direct blood connection with Penelope (thankfully) and no blood relation to any members of the dragon family we know of.

That's my understanding, at least. If that's the case, though, that still leaves a bunch of people that would be upset that their spouse dropped dead.

[The Giant]

There is no recursiveness or whatever. Penelope's actual child was targeted in Step 1, Penelope was targeted in Step 2. Penelope's theoretical child with Tarquin is also targeted, because that child and Penelope's actual child have shared ancestors. Tarquin, however, has no shared ancestors with the actual child, so he's safe. The spell does not check for people with shared ancestors for people killed only by Step 2.

EDIT: Nilehus and douglas have it right.

[EmperorSarda]

There is no recursiveness or whatever. Penelope's actual child was targeted in Step 1, Penelope was targeted in Step 2. Penelope's theoretical child with Tarquin is also targeted, because that child and Penelope's actual child have shared ancestors. Tarquin, however, has no shared ancestors with the actual child, so he's safe. The spell does not check for people with shared ancestors for people killed only by Step 2.

EDIT: Nilehus and douglas have it right.

Ah, well good to know then.

[Sniffnoy]

There is no recursiveness or whatever. Penelope's actual child was targeted in Step 1, Penelope was targeted in Step 2. Penelope's theoretical child with Tarquin is also targeted, because that child and Penelope's actual child have shared ancestors. Tarquin, however, has no shared ancestors with the actual child, so he's safe. The spell does not check for people with shared ancestors for people killed only by Step 2.

EDIT: Nilehus and douglas have it right.

Oh, I see now! By "shared blood with", you meant "has a common ancestor with". I had interpreted that as "has some chain of blood relations to" -- so e.g. having a common descendant would count, and there would be no need for a second step as the recursivity is incorporated into the first step. But with that more limited definition it makes sense.

[Silver Swift]

Okay, so if the familytree looks like this before the familicide:



With blue being the target of of the spell, green the people still alive at the time of casting and grey being the people that are already dead, then afterwards the tree would look like this:



Where red dots are the targets hit by step 1 of the spell and orange dots are the people hit by step 2. The people on the left side are shielded because the only common descendant with the step one targets is dead, but the people on the right side all die because the bottom right red dot was still alive when familicide was cast. Is that accurate?

Edit:So the reason familicide would eradicate all life on earth if it was cast in our world is that step one skips over dead relatives. Step 2 would do relatively little damage, but that doesn't matter because everyone dies in step 1?

Editedit: Scratch that, step 2 would also kill all life on earth if anyone was hit in step 1.

[Thrillhouse]

You probably would eventually exterminate all life if you went beyond step 2...and it might not take very many more steps.

[ChristianSt]

Okay, so if the familytree looks like this before the familicide:

Blue = Target
Green = Living
Grey = Dead at start
Red = Dead Familicide Step 1
Orange = Dead Familicide Step 2

I think the result should be this:


Reasoning: Step 1 kills all that shares blood with the target (=having common ancestors). So it even kills the distant ancestors-group (C), but doesn't kill A, because they only have a child, but A doesn't share blood with the target.

Step 2 kills A (because of sharing blood with a child of the target - if the children would have been dead, A would survive step 2) and the rest of the orange-marked persons (because they have common ancestors with people killed by step 1). Person B survives because there is no common ancestors with any step 1 target. (That would be a possible spot for Tarquin if he had children with Penelope - Penelope was a step 2 target).

If none of the persons would have been dead before Familicide, the only living person besides B would be D, because all of the grey persons would have been Familicide step 1 target, and so all of the other survivors besides D would have been step 2 target.
If the four person group E would have been dead before Familicide, all of the orange persons F would have lived, because the other step 1 targets wouldn't share blood with them.

That is the outcome if the given tree is complete. If there is more to tree that is not shown, than the outcome could be more devastating (most notable variable: number of original humans. If you say that all humans are descendants from one couple (say Adam & Eve), then ALL living humans would be step 1 targets, because they all share some amount of blood with each other - namely some part of blood they inherited from Adam & Eve)

[Silver Swift]

Wow, lots of clumsy errors , but thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.

That is the outcome if the given tree is complete. If there is more to tree that is not shown, than the outcome could be more devastating (most notable variable: number of original humans. If you say that all humans are descendants from one couple (say Adam & Eve), then ALL living humans would be step 1 targets, because they all share some amount of blood with each other - namely some part of blood they inherited from Adam & Eve)

We have word of the giant that the world was created fully populated, so we know that there is no Adam & Eve scenario going on. Of course, even then every generation vastly increases the amount of damage familicide would do, assuming no incest whatsoever (which admittedly is a fairly ridiculous assumption in this case) the number of step 1 target doubles every generation.

[Douglas]

Blue = Target
Green = Living
Grey = Dead at start
Red = Dead Familicide Step 1
Orange = Dead Familicide Step 2

I think the result should be this:


Reasoning: Step 1 kills all that shares blood with the target (=having common ancestors). So it even kills the distant ancestors-group (C), but doesn't kill A, because they only have a child, but A doesn't share blood with the target.

Step 2 kills A (because of sharing blood with a child of the target - if the children would have been dead, A would survive step 2) and the rest of the orange-marked persons (because they have common ancestors with people killed by step 1). Person B survives because there is no common ancestors with any step 1 target. (That would be a possible spot for Tarquin if he had children with Penelope - Penelope was a step 2 target).

If none of the persons would have been dead before Familicide, the only living person besides B would be D, because all of the grey persons would have been Familicide step 1 target, and so all of the other survivors besides D would have been step 2 target.
If the four person group E would have been dead before Familicide, all of the orange persons F would have lived, because the other step 1 targets wouldn't share blood with them.

That is the outcome if the given tree is complete. If there is more to tree that is not shown, than the outcome could be more devastating (most notable variable: number of original humans. If you say that all humans are descendants from one couple (say Adam & Eve), then ALL living humans would be step 1 targets, because they all share some amount of blood with each other - namely some part of blood they inherited from Adam & Eve)

Assuming the E group is the four red circles near the letter, I believe this is correct in every detail.

[The_Final_Stand]

I thought of it like this:

Step One. From the Target, move up the family tree only. Select each individual that the target is directly descended from and is still alive. (parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc.)

For each selected individual, kill them and any direct descendants (children, grandchildren, great grandchildren).

This would, for instance, if cast on me, kill my aunt on my mother's side (related via my grandmother), and my cousins, but leave my uncle, who is not by blood related to me, untouched.

Step Two. For each individual killed in Step One, repeat step one. Find all direct living ancestors, then kill them and their descendants.

This step would kill my uncle, as he's the parent of one of my cousins killed in Step 1, and his parents, brothers, sisters, etc as long as someone's still alive for there to be a bloodline. The husband of his sister, even if they had a child, would be untouched (other than the grief of losing his child, wife, extended family...)

So yeah. Pretty murderous spell.

[Silver Swift]

So yeah. Pretty murderous spell.

I think that sums it up pretty nicely. Makes you wonder what Haera designed it for in the first place, other than randomly wiping out significant portions of the world populations, it doesn't seem to have a lot of uses. Of course, she was an epic level necromancer so to her, that might be a valid use (lot's of materials to work with, not a lot of competition), assuming you have some way to prevent yourself from becoming collateral damage.

[gamephil]

It's probably irrelevant to the story (the Terrible Trio are around, so she *might* make a second appearance), but I like the idea so much that the creator of this spell accidentally killed herself with it that I'm just going to assume that's true until proven otherwise. It's not merely evil, but stupidly excessive.

[Grey Watcher]

Blue = Target
Green = Living
Grey = Dead at start
Red = Dead Familicide Step 1
Orange = Dead Familicide Step 2

I think the result should be this:


Reasoning: Step 1 kills all that shares blood with the target (=having common ancestors). So it even kills the distant ancestors-group (C), but doesn't kill A, because they only have a child, but A doesn't share blood with the target.

Step 2 kills A (because of sharing blood with a child of the target - if the children would have been dead, A would survive step 2) and the rest of the orange-marked persons (because they have common ancestors with people killed by step 1). Person B survives because there is no common ancestors with any step 1 target. (That would be a possible spot for Tarquin if he had children with Penelope - Penelope was a step 2 target).

If none of the persons would have been dead before Familicide, the only living person besides B would be D, because all of the grey persons would have been Familicide step 1 target, and so all of the other survivors besides D would have been step 2 target.
If the four person group E would have been dead before Familicide, all of the orange persons F would have lived, because the other step 1 targets wouldn't share blood with them.

That is the outcome if the given tree is complete. If there is more to tree that is not shown, than the outcome could be more devastating (most notable variable: number of original humans. If you say that all humans are descendants from one couple (say Adam & Eve), then ALL living humans would be step 1 targets, because they all share some amount of blood with each other - namely some part of blood they inherited from Adam & Eve)

I would only add to the verbal description that the spell (as I understand it) works based on common ancestors or descendants (unless there's a usage of the word "ancestor" that I'm unaware of that encompasses both ).

[Doug Lampert]

I thought of it like this:

Step One. From the Target, move up the family tree only. Select each individual that the target is directly descended from and is still alive. (parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc.)

NO! See the Giant's post in this very thread! Step one goes back to the creation of the world and the original ancestral dragons and cares nothing for alive or dead.

That explanation is clearly given in various posts by the other douglas, and is specifically stated to be correct by the giant.

Step two is the one that works only on living links.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Suddenly, Mitochondrial Eve is a lot more terrifying as a concept.

Also, to revise V's analysis, it isn't casting a fireball in a marketplace to kill a thief. It's meteor swarming the whole village.

[Silver Swift]

Suddenly, Mitochondrial Eve is a lot more terrifying as a concept.

Also, to revise V's analysis, it isn't casting a fireball in a marketplace to kill a thief. It's meteor swarming the whole village.

And then meteor swarming another few random villages just to be thorough.

[ChristianSt]

Wow, lots of clumsy errors , but thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.



We have word of the giant that the world was created fully populated, so we know that there is no Adam & Eve scenario going on. Of course, even then every generation vastly increases the amount of damage familicide would do, assuming no incest whatsoever (which admittedly is a fairly ridiculous assumption in this case) the number of step 1 target doubles every generation.

I know that the Giant stated the world was fully populated with a certain amount of original humans. I wanted only to add that it could potentially wipe out one species if the right circumstances are given. (With an Adam & Eve scenario being the easiest one; but with enough interbreeding (over time) it isn't the only option.)

I would only add to the verbal description that the spell (as I understand it) works based on common ancestors or descendants (unless there's a usage of the word "ancestor" that I'm unaware of that encompasses both ).

From what the Giant said about it earlier it doesn't really care about descendants, but more about shared blood (sure a person shares blood with all of his/hers ancestors/descendants, but you can have common descendants with someone you don't share blood with; but you share some amount of blood with each person that has a common ancestor with you, because you both have some blood of that common ancestor).
So the best way to figure out who "shares blood" is to start with the original humans, label them all with different labels (perhaps "1"..."N") and each born human has all labels off his/her parents combined (and that's the point where Familiced can get really ugly, because if you don't add new original humans (thus adding labels), it is quite possible that (given enough time/interbreeding) there will be humans with all labels).
In the first step Familicide kills simple all humans that share a label (equal to sharing blood) with the target. In the second step I'm not that sure, but from "Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1." I would simply do the same once again, starting with the combined set of labels of all victims of step 1, but with the explanation that Rich added about living ancestors, maybe it could spare some of them.

Sure having a common descendent with someone targeted by Familicide will kill you, because the target shares blood with the descendent (killing it step 1) and then, because you share blood with the descendent it will kill you in step 2 [if you are not killed by step 1].

* I said humans, but it would be better to replace it with given species or something other, because we know that Familicide doesn't exclude non-humans, but talking about humans is easier.

[Doug Lampert]

I would only add to the verbal description that the spell (as I understand it) works based on common ancestors or descendants (unless there's a usage of the word "ancestor" that I'm unaware of that encompasses both ).

Bloodline actually, which the Giant used in comic in the description of the spell.

[Grey Watcher]

Bloodline actually, which the Giant used in comic in the description of the spell.

I was referring specifically to ChristianSt's explanation, which, aside from that one small issue is very thorough and clear.

I guess I just prefer using terms like "ancestor" and "descendant" over "bloodline" or "sharing the blood" because the former are more specific and therefore, to my mind, clearer.