GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread II

[DracoDei]

Monstrous (IE without opposable thumbs) means it can't use most equipment and is MUCH less likely to have equipment... this keeps things much simpler...
It also avoids arguements about "I strap +5 barding of wootness onto it, get it to split, then teleport one split away and dimensional anchor it preventing it from rejoining while I remove the barding, then sell the barding, wash/rinse/repeat."... come to that, probably just say that it can't time-clone equipment period...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Monstrous (IE without opposable thumbs) means it can't use most equipment and is MUCH less likely to have equipment... this keeps things much simpler...
It also avoids arguements about "I strap +5 barding of wootness onto it, get it to split, then teleport one split away and dimensional anchor it preventing it from rejoining while I remove the barding, then sell the barding, wash/rinse/repeat."... come to that, probably just say that it can't time-clone equipment period...

Why not? Maybe the equipment, if removed from the time clone, reverts back to it's original timeline, thus disappearing. That seems like a much more elegant way of preventing that sort of abuse. Although I'm not sure even that is necessary, since (speaking strictly for myself) I at least only make monsters with their primary function in mind; they're supposed to be creative and original antagonists/allies, not something to abuse mechanically to eke out every benefit. Player's aren't supposed to find out exactly what's going on or how to exploit it.

But maybe that's just me.

[Lappy9000]

My bad. I wasn't thinking of how the Monster Manual presents creatures. It is correctly as an 1st level NPC warrior.

Lappy,

Also, you had this under Diatocks as Characters: ""Traits: A soulstitched possesses the following traits:...." Don't you mean "diatock" not "soulstitched"?

BTW, it is missing 8 skill points. The modifier for Int is always a minimum of 1 so even creatures with penalties to Int still get skill points to spend. Plants get 2 times Int modifier (minimum 1) with quadruple for their first HD.

Debby

Gads, my copy-pasted evil plots have been foiled! Oh, and thanks for the skill point thing. On it right now!

[DracoDei]

But maybe that's just me.

I meant it was the SIMPLEST solution, not necessarily the BEST one...

[TheLogman]

Well, after a long time with no Homebrewing (Fallout 3 and school will do that to you), I am back in the field, if only for one more submission. Pretty happy with this one, like the concept. If anyone can help out with errors I may have made, or help with some confusing wording, please tell me, it's been a while and my skills are a wee bit rusty.

[DracoDei]

For the Temporal Echoes:
The Superior Movement: ability needs to specify it is Ex or Su, and I think Superior Incorporeality: would perhaps be more descriptive, if PERHAPS slightly less accurate... also the way it is written makes it sound like they can go as deep as they like, but if they do they can't come out the other side.

((And may I mark myself down for an "immitation is the sincerest form of flattery" point for this or something? Free Spirit did it first... or did you come up with it independantly do you think?))

[Bhu]

I may give it a shot after all. I have one or two ideas, I just need to look over some rules to see if they're feasible.

[Debihuman]

Well, after a long time with no Homebrewing (Fallout 3 and school will do that to you), I am back in the field, if only for one more submission. Pretty happy with this one, like the concept. If anyone can help out with errors I may have made, or help with some confusing wording, please tell me, it's been a while and my skills are a wee bit rusty.

Lore DC numbers are way off -- they shouldn't be so high as they are based on 10+HD and then +5 for every next level. Starting with DC 30 for a 5 HD monster is simply too high and the 50 DC for the last is ridiculous. Normally the progression would be 15, 20, 25. I could see you making a case that due to their rarity it would be more difficult so 20, 25, 30 isn't wholly unreasonable but going beyond that will be.

Challenge Rating is missing. Granted, this is more of an art than a science but they have a lot of immunities and they cast spells at caster level 11 which is significant. I'd put their CR rating at least 7 despite their low number of hit dice. Ability drain tends to be problematic for lower levels because it is permanent unlike ability damage. In conjunction with it being immune to turning, you are looking at a TPK in a handbasket. The problem with handing out special abilities like candy is that it tends to make creatures which are unbalance for the number of HD they have.

Heritage should probably be 6-10 or family 2-4 since the overlap doesn't make much sense. Organization is probably "Any" since you could have generations of these things.

Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks.

Just my two cents.

Debby

[TheLogman]

Nope, sorry Draco, never read your free spirit.

EDIT: RE-read the Lore stuff. I'll go back and fix some of that stuff.
As for the ability drain, I was basing of the Ghast's 1d4 Constitution Drain, but I can see how that could be unbalanced.

I guess I'll ratchet down the touch damage and make it ability damage instead of drain. These things aren't supposed to hit high anyway.

[BisectedBrioche]

Hmm, I still can't seem to think of something. Even the "hat" method's failing me.

[Debihuman]

Nope, sorry Draco, never read your free spirit.

EDIT: RE-read the Lore stuff. I'll go back and fix some of that stuff.
As for the ability drain, I was basing of the Ghast's 1d4 Constitution Drain, but I can see how that could be unbalanced.

I guess I'll ratchet down the touch damage and make it ability damage instead of drain. These things aren't supposed to hit high anyway.

The ghast's ability drain is only transmitted on a successful bite and has a 1 day incubation period (before damage can begin) and is avoidable with a DC 15 Fort Save. You didn't mention anything about a save and damage happens immediately. This makes your critter far more dangerous to lower level parties.

Debby

[TheLogman]

I just realized, I made two mistakes.

Firstly, the Drain was based on the drain from the wraith, not the ghast. Secondly, I forgot to add that drain to the special attacks (Which adds the save against that drain).

I set the CR at 8. I'm pretty happy with that. Considering the sheer number of immunities it has, I think that 8 is an acceptable CR, especially considering the high miss chances. The idea is that it's hard to hit, but doesn't deal much. It's spell-like abilities are all about evading and controlling from the sidelines.

I don't like making tank monster, I like making subtle monsters that can control from the sidelines. Fragile, but quick and subtle.

[Debihuman]

Temporal Echo is missing its Initiative 7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative); its Fort save is wrong and it should be +1 (it still gets to have its poor fort save based on hd with no modifier for Con); the word "melee" is missing on attacks. I.e. Incorporeal Touch +5 melee.... Can they speak and if so, what language(s) do they know? Note that they only get one bonus language based on Int.

Debby

[Sir Shadow]

*looks at DebiHuman's entry* I love you... I mean... I love Phantom Tollbooth <__<;;;

[TheLogman]

Added the Initiative, (How did I forget that?), corrected the Fortitude Save, and clarified how they communicate.

They don't speak, they communicate with Ghost Sound and Sending, but prefer not to speak to mortals at all (That note is in the monster now).

[Debihuman]

*looks at DebiHuman's entry* I love you... I mean... I love Phantom Tollbooth <__<;;;

Why thank you very much! I am much flattered. It was one of my favorite books when I was growing.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Can I get an official ruling from VT about the "twins" entry?

And how about some critique people?

[Bhu]

Can I get an official ruling from VT about the "twins" entry?

And how about some critique people?

I haven't had a chance to peek at it in detail but I like the concept. I may or may not get an entry up in time. Every concept I come up with seems done best as a Template (argh!). I'll try to go over the twins by this weekend.

[DracoDei]

I haven't had a chance to peek at it in detail but I like the concept. <Snip> I'll try to go over the twins by this weekend.

Thank you very much.

I may or may not get an entry up in time. Every concept I come up with seems done best as a Template (argh!).

I find that very interesting... I wouldn't think that "Time" would be something PARTICULARLY prone towards templates...

[Debihuman]

Okay, I'm looking at the "Twins." Right off the bat, I have absolutely no idea what these are. A reference would be nice. Who is speaking the quotes? When you have a creature, you should have at least a brief description. These really need a little history to flesh out.

I don't understand initiative at all. it seems like one may always go first regardless of initiative and the other always goes last regardless of initiative. Giving one a -20 and the other a +20 doesn't really reflect that other than to seem arbitrary. Perhaps this should be a special quality.

Is the +5 deflection bonus from Cha? Where is described?

What is the special ability "Final Word"? It is still missing.

Environment should at least state their home plane.


Creatures with a swim speed need to have the swim skill in their stat block [they have a +8 bonus].

The First Word doesn't qualify for an epic feat as it doesn't have enough hit dice. Frankly with three bonus feats, you should probably have given it more hit dice.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Have been trying to fix some of the stuff Debihuman mentioned (fluff will probably be the LAST thing I add since I have it pretty clearly in mind)...

Any suggestions for what these guys' home plane would be? I am thinking whatever the NN afterlife is, whatever plain the bloodwar is on, or maybe Vahalla...

[DracoDei]

Added in a few more things including some fluff, and a very basic note to GMs explaining the intended use of them in the game.

[Bhu]

The First Word still has his Epic Feat

I think their weapons might be worth more than 250K (but I'd have to look)

I am...uncertain about CR. There is very little to compare them too.

[DracoDei]

He is supposed to have that Epic Feat, it is a bonus feat, he doesn't have to qualify for it in the normal way.

The Sword of the Final Word comes out to a +9 level weapon by the book I think before you add in the fact that the -20 to initiative, the *True Strike* effect, the no AoO/Cleave/Whirlwind Attack/etc, and the Maximized damage thing... I eyeballed that into there by making it 50k more than a +10 enchantment equivalent weapon.

I gave no value for how much The Swords of the First Word are worth. (So what do people think it should be?)

[BisectedBrioche]

OK, I've finally come up with something. Hopefully by the end of the day I'll have the Carnivorous Thyme up.

[Lappy9000]

Yo, Logman, your table looked a little wonky, so I fixed it up for ya'!

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Knowledge (arcana)
{table=head] DC | Result
15 | The location or name of a person who knows something about Temporal Echoes.
21 | Temporal Echoes exist, and are spirits that were denied existence because of time travelers.
26 | Temporal Echoes will often band up with any relatives they should have had to extract revenge on whoever caused them to not be born.[/table]

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[B]Knowledge (arcana)[/B]
{table=head] [B]DC[/B] | [B]Result[/B]
15 | The location or name of a person who knows something about Temporal Echoes.
21 | Temporal Echoes exist, and are spirits that were denied existence because of time travelers.
26 | Temporal Echoes will often band up with any relatives they should have had to extract revenge on whoever caused them to not be born.[/table]

Also, one of the Check DC's should reveal the Undead and Incorporeal traits of the temporal echoes. I think that happening in the first check is standard, but I'm not sure.

Skills: Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Hide +13, Listen +8, Search +6, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +8
Feats: Ability Focus (Ability Drain), Improved Initiative,

Minor typo thing. Left a comma in after Improved Initiative.

It is said that the multiverse has a plan. Certain people live, certain people die. Certain people get together, certain people never talk to each other.

Should be a semi-colon there.

Other than that, it looks excellent!

Debihuman, just found some minor typos:

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• A deceased watchdog's pocketwatch has been stolen from the Hall of the Fallen (a mauseoleum which displays the the pocketwatchs of the greatest watchdogs whoever lived). The heirs of the deceased request the PCs to find the missing item.
  
• A watchdog has been corrupted and enslaved by a covey of hags. The PCs are recuited to stop the nefarious plans.

Those should be "mausoleum", "pocketwatches", and "recruited". And there's an extra "the" in there too.

Spoiler

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[Table=head][B]DC[/B]| [B]Result[/B]
16 | The creature is a watchdog and guards the Doldrums. Its purpose is to see that time is being used wisely. This reveals type and subtype.
21 |A watchdog’s bark is worse than its bite and it can sound its alarm as warning. Watchdogs can talk and sometimes carry passengers.
26 |Reveals all special abilities and special qualities. Bards can tell which lineage a particular watchdog is from, adding +2 to any diplomacy checks.
[/table]

All you need to do is put [Table=head] at the beginning of yer table. Looks fine, otherwise, though.

[Debihuman]

He is supposed to have that Epic Feat, it is a bonus feat, he doesn't have to qualify for it in the normal way.

The Sword of the Final Word comes out to a +9 level weapon by the book I think before you add in the fact that the -20 to initiative, the *True Strike* effect, the no AoO/Cleave/Whirlwind Attack/etc, and the Maximized damage thing... I eyeballed that into there by making it 50k more than a +10 enchantment equivalent weapon.

I gave no value for how much The Swords of the First Word are worth. (So what do people think it should be?)

DracoDei, As far as I know, you cannot give out epic bonus feats until a creature has at least 21 HD. Even if I'm wrong, you should really reconsider upping the number of HD. Monsters really shouldn't have more than 2 bonus feats. More than two bonus feats, and they deserve to have more hit dice. The First Word has 4 bonus feats and one of those is epic. This is making very difficult to evaluate.

Can a challenger refuse to accept the challenge from either of these? What if a PC simply concedes the battle? Can they be banished?

Lappy -- thanks for the help.

Debby

[DracoDei]

DracoDei, As far as I know, you cannot give out epic bonus feats until a creature has at least 21 HD. Even if I'm wrong, you should really reconsider upping the number of HD. Monsters really shouldn't have more than 2 bonus feats. More than two bonus feats, and they deserve to have more hit dice. The First Word has 4 bonus feats and one of those is epic. This is making very difficult to evaluate.

A friend of mine with a degree in English once said something along the lines of "In highschool they teach you the rules of language. In college they show you how to break selectively nearly everyone of those rules to good advantage." I am breaking the rules. Next you are going to tell me that arbitrarily giving The Final Word a -20 to initiative or maximizing his damage doesn't fly because it doesn't follow the rules guidelines for how things are supposed to work. As for bonus feats specifically... so I made some of the HD count like fighter levels to some extent? So what? So I gave out an epic bonus feat? I COULD have just upped the intiative bonus from double-haste by 4 more points, but the epic feat underlines the whole "epitomy of swiftness of attack" thing much better IMHO. Now, yes, it DOES make it even harder to judge the CR, but what is life without a little challenge, eh?

Can a challenger refuse to accept the challenge from either of these?

Answer to the question you really asked: Sure, but they would probably be a fool to.
Bit of a nit-pick: They never fight appart from eachother, they always fight as a team, the party accepts or declines the challenge for both of them together.

What if a PC simply concedes the battle?

Ummmm, good question, never really occured to me that anyone would concede after accepting.... then they laugh at him and kill him as slowly and painfully as possible for being such a wimp maybe? (and then they get True Rezzed, just like normal)
Edit: I guess if the PARTY conceded and it was fairly obvious as to the details of how things were going to turn out (remember they are motivated by competion with eachother, as well as with others).

Can they be banished?

As it currently stands... yes. Might have to look into that though... would be kinda cheesy to banish one and then defeat the other for his weapon(s) I think... maybe make it so they are banished together as if they were a single 40HD creature, and either are both banished or both remain???
Edit: Just realized that you may have meant: "Does banishing them count as defeating them so that they leave their weapons behind?", the answer is in that case is "No".

[adanedhel9]

The Sower of Seasons is up. As always, suggestions and critiques are welcome.

So a few nights ago I dreamed that my entry had something to do with frying sausages and that I had to justify how that had anything to do with time maniputation. You wouldn't believe how difficult that was to get out of my head.

[Lappy9000]

The Sower of Seasons is up. As always, suggestions and critiques are welcome.

So a few nights ago I dreamed that my entry had something to do with frying sausages and that I had to justify how that had anything to do with time maniputation. You wouldn't believe how difficult that was to get out of my head.

That's a cool entry. And the frying sausages wouldn't be too much weider than other entries in these competitions....