[3.5e/d20r] The Sorceror: What's More Important?

[Fax Celestis]

Sizing up my options for a revamp on the Sorceror class, and I'm curious: is it more important for a Sorceror to have class features that mitigate spell level adjusts and allow him to alter his spells naturally; or is it more important for them to have 'heritage' class features, eventually progressing them towards a racial apotheosis (dragon, demon, angel, or otherwise)? I'm uncertain I can fit both into the class.

[Lert, A.]

I would say the former. Blood may be the means by which the sorcerer gains access to his magic, but he himself is about magic, not the blood itself.

I would think that Eschew Materials would be a base and then work from there.

[Flickerdart]

Hm. Well, the flavour of the Sorcerer is a magic-user that takes its talents from innate will, not study. Spells are a lot more important to this concept than the heritage.

However, if the sorcerer would choose a race from which his abilities stemmed and then be limited in spell choice to that particular race's (such as Fire spells for Red Dragon heritage or Evil spells for Demonic) the heritage thing could work a lot better, and make the Sorcerer vastly different from the Wizard. Maybe make this concept a Prestige Class, if you're keeping those for d20r.

[Kurald Galain]

I would say the latter. His powers draw from his heritage, and are an artistic and intuitive form of magic. The one who takes the scientific approach and understands how to logically alter (or reduce level adjustments of) his spells is the wizard.

[thegurullamen]

I believe the former is the stomping ground of the wizard class, hence bonus metamagic feats versus the sorc's nothing. However, I have yet to see a sorc remake that can make the undead/magic/fey/demon heritage incarnate/aspect/avatar/paragon/whatever work without adding class features a sorc doesn't need or that don't just plain suck.

If you can make the latter work without seeming forced or subpar, then I recommend that one. Otherwise, augments it is.

[TheStranger]

Definitely the former. Personally, I find the "heritage" aspect of the Sorcerer fluff to be forced. I prefer to ignore it, and I'd hate to have the class throw it in my face in such a concrete way. Making heritage abilities a major part of the Sorcerer class really constrains fluff/roleplaying options; metamagic-type abilities are going to be useful for any Sorcerer, and players can embrace or ignore the heritage fluff through roleplaying.

[pyrefiend]

The heritage is more important. It's what makes the sorcerer unique, and the former can all ready be achieved by the wizard, anyway. Racial abilities might be best represented with a variety of spell lists. The sorcerer would gain access to a few of them depending on his heritage, like Flickerdart suggested. To use one of his examples, a sorcerer with a red dragon heritage might have access to the dragon and fire arcane spell lists.

[Zeta Kai]

Forget the latter option. The draconic heritage is an unproven theory that is just fluff speculation, & has never impacted the crunch. If you want a racial apotheosis, go for Dragon Disciple instead. Sorcerers are spellslingers, pure & simple. Let's just make sure that they are good at sorcery, & leave the dragons to the experts.

[Zeful]

"Heritage" abilities are a generally large failure of logic at best. You have 1/100th to 1/1000th non-mortal blood while still being your chosen race and class. And because you gain all your spells/class features from this blood, the creature your descended from should be 100 to 1000 times more powerful that you ever will be. The only way "heritage" works if the heritage is from a creator race like the Sharruk (or however it's spelled), which supposedly undermines the concept.

That said you should keep the Sorcerous heritage concept the throw-away line that it is in the PHb, and simply write a new exclusive spell list for them.

[Darrin]

Sizing up my options for a revamp on the Sorceror class, and I'm curious: is it more important for a Sorceror to have class features that mitigate spell level adjusts and allow him to alter his spells naturally; or is it more important for them to have 'heritage' class features, eventually progressing them towards a racial apotheosis (dragon, demon, angel, or otherwise)? I'm uncertain I can fit both into the class.

Here's what I did in my campaign: Sorcerers gain a bonus feat at 1st/5th/10th/15th/20th, similar to wizards. They can choose any metamagic, item creation, bloodline, or heritage feat. Trying to fit both some kind of lineage and metamagic is thus up to the player.

[Oslecamo]

Sorcerer: because 9th level arcane spellcasting and bending the universe at will isn't enough for some people.

Well, if you insist in giving the sorcerer even moar power(wich he really doesn't need), then go the spell route. It's probably easier to balance and the sorcer is suposed to be magic incarnate anyway, not someone whose grandmother was raped by some random monster.

[Fizban]

I'm with TheStranger: screw the heritage stuff, I'm sick of all the sorcerer goodies requiring you to be a dragon or some other wacko. If anything, you learn the magic first and then use it to jack draconic powers, or the magic is what makes the dragons dragony so you get it too, but no more bloodlines.

I'd say sorcerers should have more spontaneous magic manipulation. Not a new system for making spells on the spot, but drop the limits on spontaneous metamagic and give them some bonus feats, maybe even reduce the level on the ones that don't give you more numerical mechanical effect (like widen). There's a PrC in Bestiary of Krynn that lets you actually reduce the level of your spells by reverse engineering those feats, which effectively gives you a whole extra tier of spells per day. That's a little overboard, but I like the idea.

[Fax Celestis]

Sorcerer: because 9th level arcane spellcasting and bending the universe at will isn't enough for some people.

On that note, let me explain myself a little:

Because Sorcery isn't exactly a 'perfected' magic, sorcerors will have a chance when casting to have disrupted magic/extra effects/etc, rather similar to a Wild Magic zone. In exchange, I'm considering giving them the power to augment or alter spells on the fly and without metamagic: that is, take a fireball and change it from a 30' sphere to a 60' line. There'll also be the ability to mitigate level adjusts via the means of sacrificing some part of yourself: ranging from HP damage to ability damage to irreversible aging (a la Shannara). Further, sorcerors won't be restricted to one or two schools of magic.

Wizardry is more scientific and therefore isn't capable of being modded on the fly. In exchange, they don't suffer from wild magic. They will, however, have a more limited spell list, since they'll have to specialize into one of four schools.

[Vexxation]

Awesome Stuff about how magic will work

Fax, how is it you were not put in charge of 4E?

[Dogmantra]

I'm in the majority here: sorcerors are spellcasters first, dragon heritage-ed second, if at all.

Though, they could do with a new class feature, like reverse metamagic, maybe: you can reduce the level of a spell, by applying penalties.

Oh, just read your post Fax, and that sounds more awesome than reverse metamagic.

[Fax Celestis]

Fax, how is it you were not put in charge of 4E?

You know, I ask myself that question all the time. I just settle with putting myself in charge of "3.Fax", as it's been dubbed on the homebrew forums.

[Lert, A.]

Fax, how is it you were not put in charge of 4E?

Listens to the peasants he does.

How scandalous!

[Glyphic]

How about a more beefy 'Favored spell' like the wu-jen gets?

[Oslecamo]

Fax, how is it you were not put in charge of 4E?

Because of the following reasons. In his version:

1-Wizards only have one school of magic-the one wich has teleport
2-Sorcerers are the new frenzied bersekers, randomly killing party members when their spells randomly change and hit them.


So 3/4ths of magic get choped down since only sadic people who don't care about teamplay play Fax's "friendly fire" sorcerers, and the wizard is the only arcane caster left, and he will pick the school with teleport, wich probably will have most of the remaining best spells.

[Lert, A.]

Way to prejudgethe house that hasn't had the foundation laid.

Maybe wait and see, before getting all snarky?

[Fax Celestis]

Because of the following reasons. In his version:

1-Wizards only have one school of magic-the one wich has teleport
2-Sorcerers are the new frenzied bersekers, randomly killing party members when their spells randomly change and hit them.

So 3/4ths of magic get choped down since only sadic people who don't care about teamplay play Fax's "friendly fire" sorcerers, and the wizard is the only arcane caster left, and he will pick the school with teleport, wich probably will have most the remaining best spells.

You pretty obviously haven't read about anything I've done so far.

Wild Magic does not mean "the spell reverses and effects the caster"; it means "the spell might be at CL -3, might be automatically empowered, or might just be cast regularly."

[kamikasei]

1-Wizards only have one school of magic-the one wich has teleport

Can I just point out that this reasoning is pretty specious given that psionics handles mandatory specialization without all psions being of the same discipline?

{Scrubbed}

[FMArthur]

I feel like saying "do the heritage thing" because it's more interesting to me, but what happens to people who just want a spontaneous wizard? How much will the heritage concept differ from the classic sorcerer? Can you explore a spontaneous variant wizard concept for those people if your sorcerer is very different?

Sorry if these are dumb or irrelavent questions, since I haven't read through all of your other work (I will soon, I promise!). Also, you should know before you remake it that there's only one O in 'sorcerer'.

[Oslecamo]

{Scrubbed}

[Fax Celestis]

Can I just point out that this reasoning is pretty specious given that psionics handles mandatory specialization without all psions being of the same discipline?

I can?

Oh good.

Which is, in fact, exactly how I was going to model wizardry.

[Fax Celestis]

Wow you also changed what wild magic is? Excuse me my error, I tought your work still had some connections with D&D, but it seems I was wrong. So what's empowered? And CL? And regularly? Cast is using magic, right?

Wouldn't it be better to just rebuild the system from scratch if you're changing so much stuff?

I said "akin to wild magic", not "wild magic". {Scrubbed}

[kamikasei]

Which is, in fact, exactly how I was going to model wizardry.

I don't envy you that task - are you planning to rewrite many spells, or just change schools/levels?

[Alleine]

I'd definitely say the first one. Heritage is cool and all, but not actually that helpful. I would rather have the natural spell adjusting on the fly.

[Lert, A.]

Can I point out how you were comparing apples to cyborg elephants with laser swords? Can I ? Oh, good.

I want cyborg elephants with laser swords now.

And maybe an apple.

[kamikasei]

Anyway, on topic, I would suggest combining the two by giving the Sorceror options to alter their magic more readily than wizards but making them better at doing so for spells in some way associated with their heritage. Of course, the difficulty there is constructing "themes" for spells. An idea might be something like Person Man's domain Favored Soul variant.

Kamikasei:Psions can do that because 90% of the powers are available to you no matter what specialization you have. Wizards, on the other hand, have 90% of their spells divided in schools.

In fact, all psionic powers have a discipline, it's just that some are exclusive to specialists in that discipline.

Fax clearly says sorcers, unlike wizards, won't be limited to just one schools of magic. This means wizards are restricted to just one school. Wich means you get 1/4th the total of spells plus the 10% universal spells, meaning a much smaller percentage.

So your reasoning seems to be that if you a) assume that Fax's brief description of some of the changes in his sweeping revision project cover only changes to the classes with no accompanying changes to the spells, and b) assume that Fax is an idiot, then his ideas are bad. Sure, I'll grant that conclusion, given those assumptions.