Erfworld #137 - The Discussion Thread

[Whispri]

Well, my first thought was "It's naughtymancy." And while destroying the world in a rain of earth and fire is pretty naughty, it's not naughty in the same way croakamancy is naughty. I mean, un-erfing these terms, I read naughty as "taboo". Messing with the dead has always been taboo. You'd have to go nuclear before just setting fire to things was taboo.

Erf isn't our World, there's no reason to think uncroaking is taboo there. Oh sure the madman hell bent on genocide doesn't approve, but what does he know?

Shockmancy, Croakamancy, Deletionism. That's Death Magic all. What other form of magic is directly involved in Death and Killing? Some create fearsome creatures and some are very helpful if your planning to kill people, but none of the others really sound like the sort of thing you'd mostly use to directly pile up, put to use, or unmake corpses.

[Lombard]

Successes.
Delete all the nearby siege. Exactly as planned.

Umm I saw this and also noticed your list of 'failures' didn't include losing all the dragons he sent to kill the seige... lol are you making an attempt at spin-doctoring or is that just a massive oversight? The seige-killing and the dragons were a major story arc in this strip.

[Aquillion]

Really disagree on that last bit. It does seem you're engaged in some sort of logical fallacy here where good or bad luck is ordained to come in streaks. A streak of luck is much less probable than any individual occurrence of a random outlier on a probability chart.

Or, you know, the situation could just be really stacked against Parson. Which we knew from the very beginning.

Ansom hasn't "gotten lucky" as often as people are saying. He didn't get particularly lucky against the initial ambush (it was an obvious strategy, and just Parson's initial feint -- it wasn't a big deal, since it theoretically let them put their mole in the enemy camp anyway.) A big part of why that plan failed was because nobody had told Parson about Charlie.

Ansom got marginally lucky with the Donut of Doom, but his own attributes (in deciding to take a third option in the first place) and, perhaps more importantly, Wanda's secretiveness (she concealed the nature and limitations of her hold on Jillian from Parson until it was too late, which made it impossible for him to accurately evaluate the potential risks that her Gwiffions posed to his plan) were much more important. Parson could have placed the Dwagons elsewhere if he Wanda had told him enough to be worried about Jillian (note that contrary to what someone said earlier in this thread, there was no risk of Webinar swooping in to the rescue -- the Gwiffons are Jillian's units, not Jetstone ones, even when she's acting as a mercenary, and she could -- and did -- prevent Webinar from using them effectively.)

Ansom obviously had zero luck with his own plan to take out Stanley, or his attack on the tunnels (in fact, the tunnels went catastrophically against him, when Sizemore implied that there was a decent chance it could have gone the other way.) Ansom was also catastrophically unlucky to have Jack's mind restored exactly when it was -- everything would have ended then and there if it hadn't.

And in the most recent sequence of events, there was no luck involved at all. Charlie had made it clear to Parson that this was something he was considering doing already. It was an offer that Ansom had on the table. Word of God is that the entire area they were over was part of the walls -- the Arkenpliers couldn't have fallen anywhere else. If anything, Wanda is lucky to have survived getting hit by that many Archons, not unlucky to have been incapacitated. It was an extremely risky gambit on Parson's part, one he only attempted because he knew the potential benefits were high enough to justify it.

[Whispri]

Or, you know, the situation could just be really stacked against Parson. Which we knew from the very beginning.

Ansom hasn't "gotten lucky" as often as people are saying. He didn't get particularly lucky against the initial ambush (it was an obvious strategy, and just Parson's initial feint -- it wasn't a big deal, since it theoretically let them put their mole in the enemy camp anyway.) A big part of why that plan failed was because nobody had told Parson about Charlie.

Ansom got marginally lucky with the Donut of Doom, but his own attributes (in deciding to take a third option in the first place) and, perhaps more importantly, Wanda's secretiveness (she concealed the nature and limitations of her hold on Jillian from Parson until it was too late, which made it impossible for him to accurately evaluate the potential risks that her Gwiffions posed to his plan) were much more important. Parson could have placed the Dwagons elsewhere if he Wanda had told him enough to be worried about Jillian (note that contrary to what someone said earlier in this thread, there was no risk of Webinar swooping in to the rescue -- the Gwiffons are Jillian's units, not Jetstone ones, even when she's acting as a mercenary, and she could -- and did -- prevent Webinar from using them effectively.)

Ansom obviously had zero luck with his own plan to take out Stanley, or his attack on the tunnels (in fact, the tunnels went catastrophically against him, when Sizemore implied that there was a decent chance it could have gone the other way.) Ansom was also catastrophically unlucky to have Jack's mind restored exactly when it was -- everything would have ended then and there if it hadn't.

And in the most recent sequence of events, there was no luck involved at all. Charlie had made it clear to Parson that this was something he was considering doing already. It was an offer that Ansom had on the table. Word of God is that the entire area they were over was part of the walls -- the Arkenpliers couldn't have fallen anywhere else. If anything, Wanda is lucky to have survived getting hit by that many Archons, not unlucky to have been incapacitated. It was an extremely risky gambit on Parson's part, one he only attempted because he knew the potential benefits were high enough to justify it.

Ranting on Luck, Plot Shields and decidedly minor antagonists was here.

Actually scratch that, the reason Ansom's called 'lucky' is that his victories, such as they are, are occurring through no fault of his own. Jillian's capture discovered? Webinar ignored his orders. Trap avoided? Vinny talked sense into him and he hired the Archons, cause you know, four times as much force as needed to take the City just aren't good enough odds. Dwagons discovered? Jillian stopped looking for them at just the right point to stumble on them by mistake. Jillian attacked the Dwagons? The Archons decided to work for free. Being disarmed, dismounted, and surrounded by Uncroaked? A force of Archons capable of taking the City on it's own turned it into a minor hurdle. Which is the problem. He started the battle with a massive advantage in numbers, the Dwagons are gone, and it still isn't enough for him to pose a threat on the strength of his own abilities. As War Leaders go, he's a joke.

As for Wanda and fall damage, her injuries could easily be the result to a critical if you want to bring luck into that little situation. And of course she was moving quickly and Ansom may benefit from his own leadership bonus. As far as Jack goes, it was actually harder to snap him out of it than a trained Thinkamancer thought it would be, if Stanley had flown into that hex veiled... As for the tunnel incident, that was Parson being brilliant, if there was luck involved he made his own. Ansom doesn't do that, he throws money at problems.

Aside: Actually now I think of it, why did Ansom even bother massing his fliers for a rescue attempt? I mean fine, once she was released, but he was readying his fliers before he knew that. How could he have gotten Jillian out of the dungeons without taking the City?

[teratorn]

Ansom doesn't do that, he throws money at problems.

Yes, because he can. Whatever Parson does Ansom can buy his way out of it. Without Charlie, Parson would have finished Ansom a long time ago.

To be fair, at the beginning of the campaign Ansom thought he would need no strategy, just brute force. He didn't expect any surprises from Stanley's side. Charlie was his way to compensate for the Parson factor, something that was completely unexpected.

Aside: Actually now I think of it, why did Ansom even bother massing his fliers for a rescue attempt? I mean fine, once she was released, but he was readying his fliers before he knew that. How could he have gotten Jillian out of the dungeons without taking the City?

I'm more interested in knowing what that means in terms of game mechanics. If Jillian is captured shouldn't her gwiffons become neutral or something like that?

[Lamech]

I'm more interested in knowing what that means in terms of game mechanics. If Jillian is captured shouldn't her gwiffons become neutral or something like that?

Apperantly one can capture leaders and not eliminate there side... and I'm betting if one does capture a overlord the remaining units can all be blackmailed.

Aside: Actually now I think of it, why did Ansom even bother massing his fliers for a rescue attempt? I mean fine, once she was released, but he was readying his fliers before he knew that. How could he have gotten Jillian out of the dungeons without taking the City?

If I would have to guess it would be a fient at Stanley and then rush for the dungeon. At which point they would run out the tunnels. Of course, doing so probably would have ended, really, really badly... air defenses Wanda's shockomancy, and her foolamancy. But they didn't know that.

[headhoncho]

Actually scratch that, the reason Ansom's called 'lucky' is that his victories, such as they are, are occurring through no fault of his own. Jillian's capture discovered? Webinar ignored his orders. Trap avoided? Vinny talked sense into him and he hired the Archons, cause you know, four times as much force as needed to take the City just aren't good enough odds. Dwagons discovered? Jillian stopped looking for them at just the right point to stumble on them by mistake. Jillian attacked the Dwagons? The Archons decided to work for free. Being disarmed, dismounted, and surrounded by Uncroaked? A force of Archons capable of taking the City on it's own turned it into a minor hurdle. Which is the problem. He started the battle with a massive advantage in numbers, the Dwagons are gone, and it still isn't enough for him to pose a threat on the strength of his own abilities. As War Leaders go, he's a joke.

QFT. It's heavy-handed and dissatisfying.

And by the way, I think objectively we're supposed to understand that Parson is the perfect warlord, if only based on his (debatably) perfect track record in hundreds if not thousands of wargames. Assuming he was telling the truth, and we have no reason to believe he wasn't.

Of course, this might also be an illustration of how theory meets reality, but if that's one of the primary messages as opposed to a secondary or tertiary one, well, that would be dissatisfying as well, IMO.

[fendrin]

Aside: Actually now I think of it, why did Ansom even bother massing his fliers for a rescue attempt? I mean fine, once she was released, but he was readying his fliers before he knew that. How could he have gotten Jillian out of the dungeons without taking the City?

Keep in mind he doesn't know about the lookamancer link. He may have been betting on the element of surprise: Punch through the tunnels to the dungeon, grab Jillian, and punch out before Stanley gets the message of an attack. From this, it seems he's done similar things before.

Apperantly one can capture leaders and not eliminate there side... and I'm betting if one does capture a overlord the remaining units can all be blackmailed.

Hmm, so maybe Banhammer is alive & imprisoned somewhere? Jillian wouldn't know, and Wanda may not want him to be released. The only other Faqian who might know is Jack, and we don't know enough about him to know his views on it one way or another.

It would certainly explain Wanda's evasions about Duty (3 times she has discussed Duty, and every time there is an evasion of some sort).

[Charlicat]

Hmm, so maybe Banhammer is alive & imprisoned somewhere? Jillian wouldn't know, and Wanda may not want him to be released. The only other Faqian who might know is Jack, and we don't know enough about him to know his views on it one way or another.

Heck, for all we know Banhammer could be alive and well in FAQ and Jillian only went barbarian because she was disowned. The casters would be either allied or traded forces. It's strongly implied that FAQ is fallen, though. I'm very interested in having the FAQ backstory filled in.

[Suicide Junkie]

And by the way, I think objectively we're supposed to understand that Parson is the perfect warlord, if only based on his (debatably) perfect track record in hundreds if not thousands of wargames. Assuming he was telling the truth, and we have no reason to believe he wasn't.

His perfect track record was implied by Wanda's weasel wording of an answer to Stanley.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0019.html
S: "And you're going to tell me you've won them *all*?
W: "He is alive, lord."
S/P: "Debatably"

No lies there, but a hearty helping of misdirection and CYA on Wanda's part.

I'm quite certain that he hasn't won every single game. Less than half would be more likely. If he had won every single game, then his players wouldn't still be around; playing with Parson as the GM under those circumstances would be nothing but an exercise in frustration.

Of course, he was really giving his players a huge advantage at the start. In order for the game to be interesting, that would have to be a close call after taking skill into account.
And that is what's important; not whether you won or lost heavily unfair games, but how many skill points you have and how unfair it has to be before you will be defeated :)

[fendrin]

Heck, for all we know Banhammer could be alive and well in FAQ and Jillian only went barbarian because she was disowned. The casters would be either allied or traded forces. It's strongly implied that FAQ is fallen, though. I'm very interested in having the FAQ backstory filled in.

I doubt Banhammer would have just disowned her... especially not while she was out with a bunch of troops. He could have waited until she returned and then disbanded her. That way he wouldn't lose the gwiffons.

His perfect track record was implied by Wanda's weasel wording of an answer to Stanley.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0019.html
S: "And you're going to tell me you've won them *all*?
W: "He is alive, lord."
S/P: "Debatably"

No lies there, but a hearty helping of misdirection and CYA on Wanda's part.

To be fair, at that point there is no evidence that Wanda knows that Parson is referring to games and not real wars. If you take that out of the equation, what she is saying makes sense.

I'm quite certain that he hasn't won every single game. Less than half would be more likely. If he had won every single game, then his players wouldn't still be around; playing with Parson as the GM under those circumstances would be nothing but an exercise in frustration.

So long as everyone knew the rules and the rules are simple enough that they don't need arbitration (like most TBSs, unlike most RPGs), there is no reason to think that just because Parson created the scenario that he had an advantage.

Of course, he was really giving his players a huge advantage at the start. In order for the game to be interesting, that would have to be a close call after taking skill into account.
And that is what's important; not whether you won or lost heavily unfair games, but how many skill points you have and how unfair it has to be before you will be defeated :)

Yes, I'd say that in Parson's scenario, the he would have been defending the GK-like city against a coalition of his players. As such, they would have the definite advantage. Really, the key to making any (strategy) game fun is to give each side a fair chance to succeed. In Parson's case, he gave himself a huge handicap in forces (though I would guess not 25:1), but that is counterbalanced by his defensive position and natural abilities. It's like in chess where sometimes the better player will start without some pieces to make the game more fair (usually when teaching the game or in casual play, obviously not in tournaments).

[Olibarro]

So start telling me every skill, bonus or resource I might not know about.

"What I wouldn't give for a Holocaust Cloak."

[Tubercular Ox]

Erf isn't our World, there's no reason to think uncroaking is taboo there. Oh sure the madman hell bent on genocide doesn't approve, but what does he know?

Well, it's circumstantial evidence but in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0032.html Parson says "You've got all the classic evil creatures on your side," and Stanley doesn't come back with "What? What's wrong with undead?" Instead he goes on about there being no good and evil. Admittedly, it could have just as easily been "What's wrong with Hobgoblin death metal?" so, as I said, circumstantial at best.

Shockmancy, Croakamancy, Deletionism. That's Death Magic all. What other form of magic is directly involved in Death and Killing? Some create fearsome creatures and some are very helpful if your planning to kill people, but none of the others really sound like the sort of thing you'd mostly use to directly pile up, put to use, or unmake corpses.

In my heart of hearts I know you're far more likely to be right than I am, although I refuse to be convinced of anything until it shows up in the story, but the more I thought about it the more I liked my theory.

There are in fact four taboos in modern warfare: Chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear. Getting into the Delorean these translate to poison, disease, and befoulment. (Before the fortuitous discovery of uranium, salting the earth was popular) I'd love to see magic like that come about. It's got matter, it's got motion, it's got Erf, it's got Naughty. Sadly, it doesn't really have Shock, which, of course, is the most relevant descriptor, so I'll be vaguely disappointed when we find out what Shockmancy is.

lol are you making an attempt at spin-doctoring or is that just a massive oversight?

Possibly. I included it as "Trap units behind enemy lines" In my first draft of the post I very clearly described it as totally booped; that got lost in a rewrite.

[Lamech]

I doubt Banhammer would have just disowned her... especially not while she was out with a bunch of troops. He could have waited until she returned and then disbanded her. That way he wouldn't lose the gwiffons.

If he was about to get captured, he might have handed all units in the field to her; this would minimize gains to his captor. And possibly prevent his captor from finding out about Jillian.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Yes, I'd say that in Parson's scenario, the he would have been defending the GK-like city against a coalition of his players. As such, they would have the definite advantage. Really, the key to making any (strategy) game fun is to give each side a fair chance to succeed. In Parson's case, he gave himself a huge handicap in forces (though I would guess not 25:1), but that is counterbalanced by his defensive position and natural abilities. It's like in chess where sometimes the better player will start without some pieces to make the game more fair (usually when teaching the game or in casual play, obviously not in tournaments).

I think his players were going to be playing the GK side. Parson speaks of having planned a no-win scenario for them, and that doesn't sound like they'd be playing the RCC.

Parson is a gamer and socially inept. He knows how to give orders, but not how to deal with people. It seems that a certain part of the comic is how Parson learns this skill (dealing with Stanley; talking to Maggie; talking to Sizemore...).

Maybe Parson will win once he knows how to deal with Wanda.

Has this been shown in the strip? Parson seems to have close friends who he games with and who care about him. Casual players in a game you host aren't likely to be telling you that they are concerned about your obsession with gaming, it's counterproductive to their reasons for hanging out with you at all. Parson has seemed to form an easy friendship with Sizemore, and Misty very quickly looked to provide unasked for assistance to him, something people don't typically do for people who are unpersonable. And Parson even deals well with Maggie, even though he can't quite figure her out.

It's true that gamers are often portrayed as being socially inept, but I'm not sure that Parson has been shown to fit this part of the gamer personality stereotype.

[fendrin]

I think his players were going to be playing the GK side. Parson speaks of having planned a no-win scenario for them, and that doesn't sound like they'd be playing the RCC.

Remember that his scenario is only similar to what is happening on Erf. If the RCC only had , say, a 4:1 numerical superiority, they would have already lost. The devil, as they say, is in the details. We do not have the details.

[Bhurin]

I don't think Parson is getting smaller (look at him compared to Bogroll - no real change). Rather, I think some of the central characters are getting bigger - or more specifically, more maturely proportioned (I've mentioned this before). Look at the head-body ratio of characters like Wanda when we first meet them - they are toddler-like. But in this most recent page, Wanda is proportioned like a teenager.

I don't think this is simply the artist evolving his style - I think there's a deep-narrative cause that has not yet been revealed.

- jeff

THAT is a brilliant thought. Naturally, I had taken the change in artwork to be the product Jamie's refining art style. But like many I had also noted the changes in Parson's appearance, and suspected he may be being affected by his stay in Erfworld.

Like an introduced species into an unready ecosystem, something small can have profound impact on the world around it. If Erfworld is changing Parson, it is possible that Parson is changing Erfworld too.

Neat thought. Kudos.

[Aquillion]

Ranting on Luck, Plot Shields and decidedly minor antagonists was here.

Spoiler

Show

Actually scratch that, the reason Ansom's called 'lucky' is that his victories, such as they are, are occurring through no fault of his own. Jillian's capture discovered? Webinar ignored his orders. Trap avoided? Vinny talked sense into him and he hired the Archons, cause you know, four times as much force as needed to take the City just aren't good enough odds. Dwagons discovered? Jillian stopped looking for them at just the right point to stumble on them by mistake. Jillian attacked the Dwagons? The Archons decided to work for free. Being disarmed, dismounted, and surrounded by Uncroaked? A force of Archons capable of taking the City on it's own turned it into a minor hurdle. Which is the problem. He started the battle with a massive advantage in numbers, the Dwagons are gone, and it still isn't enough for him to pose a threat on the strength of his own abilities. As War Leaders go, he's a joke.

As for Wanda and fall damage, her injuries could easily be the result to a critical if you want to bring luck into that little situation. And of course she was moving quickly and Ansom may benefit from his own leadership bonus. As far as Jack goes, it was actually harder to snap him out of it than a trained Thinkamancer thought it would be, if Stanley had flown into that hex veiled... As for the tunnel incident, that was Parson being brilliant, if there was luck involved he made his own. Ansom doesn't do that, he throws money at problems.

Aside: Actually now I think of it, why did Ansom even bother massing his fliers for a rescue attempt? I mean fine, once she was released, but he was readying his fliers before he knew that. How could he have gotten Jillian out of the dungeons without taking the City?

I went over this elsewhere, but Ansom does have some important character attributes that have helped him come back from the things Parson has thrown at him.

First, and most importantly -- despite his pride, he is usually fairly quick to recognize when he's made a mistake, and to take whatever steps are necessary to deal with it, even if they're uncomfortable for him. He avoided Parson's initial ambush because he listened to Vinnie's advice that he was acting way too predictably where Jillian was concerned, and because he swallowed his pride and hired a common mercenary like Charlie. He escaped the Donut of Doom because he was willing to call in Jillian for help (well, sort of; there's more to that.) He overcame the catastrophic attack on the tunnels (which many of his allies saw as a game-ender) because he acted quickly and decisively in attacking the walls himself, not because of any random luck. He survived that attack because he recognized instantly what he'd gotten himself into, and agreed to Charlie's terms despite the cost (and the harm to his dignity) -- again, that's not random chance; for a proud character like Ansom, that's a fairly major achievement.

Second, he is confident and persistent. Twice already he's confronted situations (while in the Donut of Doom and after the attack on the tunnels) where those around him basically said things were over -- Vinnie advising him to abandon his stack and run or to make a desperate last stand, or Duke Nozzle about to walk away. Both times, he managed to take a third option and find a way to keep going, often by taking serious risks. This strategy does not always work for him -- he walked into the center hex of the donut of doom; he sent off an attack on Stanley that failed; he sent the troops under the city in the first place. But most people other than Ansom would never have gotten 'lucky', because they never would have taken those risks in the first place.

Third, he's (usually) very good at using the abilities of those around him. He avoids the initial ambush entirely because he listens to Vinnie, and he pays attention to Vinnie's advice when they're trapped in the Donut of Doom, too. He escapes the Donut of Doom because he makes good use of Jillian. He makes it past the catastrophe in the tunnels because he realizes what he has to do to keep the rest of the coalition on his side; and he survives that attack because he knows when to rely on Charlie. Most of these things (except, perhaps, Vinnie) grate on his pride to some extent, but he's still willing to swallow his pride and do it -- something that Stanley, for instance, never would. Stanley only listens to Wanda when she tricks him into it, would never consider using Charlie, prefers to do things himself, and couldn't keep a coalition together if it bit him on the ass. That's why, at the beginning of the strip, Ansom is winning and Stanley isn't.

Again, it doesn't always work (he relies on Webinar when he really shouldn't), but if he didn't rely on others to that extent he would have lost a long time ago.

Are there other factors? Sure. Ansom can't win an entire war solely on his own, no more than Parson can, and we were told at the very beginning of the strip that Ansom has better resources to rely on -- he knows the world, he has friends in the world, he has units and relationships and so forth. But to a great extent, these things (and the way Ansom makes use of them) are reflections of his personal character traits -- he didn't have to listen to Vinnie; he didn't have to hire Charlie; he didn't have to rely on Jillian (in all cases, other options technically existed, even if in Charlie's case at the most recent event it amounted to 'dither over his pride and die honorably'.) The fact that he recognizes when it is necessary to rely on others reflects well on him, and is one of the big reasons he's made it so far.

[headhoncho]

Second, he is confident and persistent. Twice already he's confronted situations (while in the Donut of Doom and after the attack on the tunnels) where those around him basically said things were over -- Vinnie advising him to abandon his stack and run or to make a desperate last stand, or Duke Nozzle about to walk away.

But that means he either has stupid advisors or he's foolhardy and stubborn to ignore sound advice.

That's why the luck factor is so infuriating. Time after time. It's gotten beyond old, IMO.

[Aquillion]

But that means he either has stupid advisors or he's foolhardy and stubborn to ignore sound advice.

That's why the luck factor is so infuriating. Time after time. It's gotten beyond old, IMO.

Well, Duke Nozzle probably didn't know that Ansom had an offer on the table from Charlie (which seriously impacted Ansom's survival and success chances on the wall.)

His strategy in the Donut of Doom was certainly more risky than Vinnie was comfortable with. (He relied on Jillian, who Vinnie didn't fully trust; he relied on her finding the injured Dwagons quickly; and he took the risk that their combined stacks couldn't survive the next turn.) But at the same time, he wouldn't have been able to get lucky there if he hadn't recognized that he needed to rely on that sort of luck.

I don't see him relying too much on luck elsewhere (and it went horribly against him in several cases, like on the tunnels.) He wasn't relying particularly on luck on the walls -- he was relying on the fact that if he got very lucky he could do it himself, while if he got into trouble, he could agree to Charlie's terms.

[fendrin]

His strategy in the Donut of Doom was certainly more risky than Vinnie was comfortable with. (He relied on Jillian, who Vinnie didn't fully trust; he relied on her finding the injured Dwagons quickly; and he took the risk that their combined stacks couldn't survive the next turn.) But at the same time, he wouldn't have been able to get lucky there if he hadn't recognized that he needed to rely on that sort of luck.

On the other hand, having Jillian hunt was a shrewd choice because if she failed, he could still take one of Vinnie's options. For that matter, if the wounded dwagons had been a little further away, he would not have been able to go assist her, and would have had to use one of Vinny's options anyway.

[headhoncho]

(and it went horribly against him in several cases, like on the tunnels.)

Parson had a sound plan that he'd set up the turn before. He didn't need a ton of luck, he had great tactics.

He wasn't relying particularly on luck on the walls -- he was relying on the fact that if he got very lucky he could do it himself, while if he got into trouble, he could agree to Charlie's terms.

He had INCREDIBLE luck on the walls. Not falling just a little bit inside or outside the top of the wall, not being splatted as it was on the wall, the speed of how things developed (the undead air force not being in time, Wanda being knocked out and unable to grab the pliers a few feet away, etc. etc.). Again, I'm not sure how some folks are reckoning luck, but that's been most of what Ansom's been getting.

The utter uselessness of the thousands of undead is a separate issue, but also one that grates, IMO.

I'm still half-expecting the writers to pull a hidden Luckomancer out of the woodwork, in light of everything that's gone on.

[Doomduckie]

But would that hidden luckamancer be a good thing or a bad thing in your eyes?

I think it could be interesting if done right, but then again that answer applies to anything- I would have said the same for Ansom dying in the wall rush or the like.

[MirEgal]

Has this been shown in the strip? Parson seems to have close friends who he games with and who care about him. Casual players in a game you host aren't likely to be telling you that they are concerned about your obsession with gaming, it's counterproductive to their reasons for hanging out with you at all. Parson has seemed to form an easy friendship with Sizemore, and Misty very quickly looked to provide unasked for assistance to him, something people don't typically do for people who are unpersonable. And Parson even deals well with Maggie, even though he can't quite figure her out.

It's true that gamers are often portrayed as being socially inept, but I'm not sure that Parson has been shown to fit this part of the gamer personality stereotype.

Ah, I need to explain a little bit more what I am thinking of. You are speaking of friendship, but there is also another type of social skills. The skills of manipulation. Knowing how to bend others to your will and to prevent being manipulated by them. Sizemore doesn't have these skills (he wants real friendship instead), so Parson was able to use him from the beginning, even without knowing that they were never real friends, always leader and soldier. Both realized that kind of relationship when they where sitting at the fire. Maggie tried to manipulate Parson, but he was able to outsmart her and now she accepts him as her commander. Wanda on the other hand still tries to manipulate everyone, also Parson. Parson will only succeed if he learns how to use Wanda regarding to his will. There is quite an irony in the fact that Wanda showed him the direction to the art of manipulation.

Every military commander will tell you, you can have either real friendship or leadership. As a military leader, you need to use your people to achieve your goal.

Gamers often lack this skill, they are often not even interested to be successful within manipulation. That's often the reason they don't want to fit in with the "normal" society.

[Aquillion]

Parson had a sound plan that he'd set up the turn before. He didn't need a ton of luck, he had great tactics.

A sound plan does not automatically equal success. He gave his own chances to Charlie as good but not great -- around two-thirds. Sizemore, the person actually in charge of the battle, indicated that it was uncertain, and in the end it came down to a fight between the commanders. If Webinar or Dora had been a bit tougher or faster, Sizemore could easily have been croaked and the whole thing lost.

He had INCREDIBLE luck on the walls. Not falling just a little bit inside or outside the top of the wall, not being splatted as it was on the wall, the speed of how things developed (the undead air force not being in time, Wanda being knocked out and unable to grab the pliers a few feet away, etc. etc.). Again, I'm not sure how some folks are reckoning luck, but that's been most of what Ansom's been getting.

The utter uselessness of the thousands of undead is a separate issue, but also one that grates, IMO.

The thousands of undead were specifically described as the weakest sort there is, since they were mass-revived. And Ansom had a weapon that turned them to dust on touch, and could fly. The fact that Parson lined up all the uncroaked on the walls like that rather than saving them for a surprise makes it pretty clear they were as much a psychological ploy as they were a military one.

Ansom might actually have been luckier to fall elsewhere, really. He's a combat-oriented warlord with royal blood (which increases stats), likely very high level. He can probably take several orders of magnitude more punishment than a frail caster like Wanda (remember, even Jack, a world-class caster, had half the hitpoints of a basic, generic garrison twoll. Casters seem to be very much made of glass in the Erfworld universe; the fact that Wanda was hurt by a fall doesn't mean that it would be more than a minor annoyance to Ansom.) Ansom's shrugging off that fall was a matter of him being tough, not a matter of him being lucky. Meanwhile, falling onto the wall put him in immediate danger of being overwhelmed by the number of enemies there.

Likewise, the fact that Wanda was able to disarm and dismount him so swiftly was, itself, luck working against him -- he's a very combat-capable unit, after all, so it can't be that simple most of the time. (She seems to have had some trick for one or the other, but not both.)

[grumbleboom]

Gamers often lack this skill, they are often not even interested to be successful within manipulation. That's often the reason they don't want to fit in with the "normal" society.

I'm truly sorry if you actually feel this way about gamers.

Back on topic.

Quoting HeadHoncho - "That's why the luck factor is so infuriating. Time after time. It's gotten beyond old, IMO."

Luck unfortunately is a big factor in a lot of games, rpg or otherwise. The roll of a die, or a 10% chance to hit can have a big impact if you get that 10% eight times in a row. It can be viewed as a DeM if you want to, but really it is statistically possible and can be viewed as really lucky... annoyingly so to someone not expecting it.


As for the comic itself... Parson and his troops are in the dungeon. The Coalition is standing in the Courtyard.

Spoiler

Show

A Courtyard which was until this turn torn to hell by Sizemore's caving in the tunnels. My bet is he opens some of those holes again to drop some of the coalition troops to their deaths. We know falling does damage and while we don't know how many hits a fall causes, it would weaken any unit that is affected.

So, lets look at this from a soldier's morale standpoint. Your army just lost 2000+ units in what should have been a cakewalk hit on the tunnels. You watch as those units climb to the top of the walls and then seemingly let you through without a fight. If the ground underneath you suddenly starts to open up and your still living comrades start falling to their deaths all around you, your "victory" at the walls becomes something your enemy LET you have.

Combine that with a Foolamancy you could be in decent shape moralewise...

I'm just saying that even though Parson is in a REALLY bad position right now, he does still have options. And some of those options could result in what he has to shoot for... a Draw.

[headhoncho]

A sound plan does not automatically equal success. He gave his own chances to Charlie as good but not great -- around two-thirds. Sizemore, the person actually in charge of the battle, indicated that it was uncertain, and in the end it came down to a fight between the commanders. If Webinar or Dora had been a bit tougher or faster, Sizemore could easily have been croaked and the whole thing lost.

Winning a 59% die roll isn't a lot of luck. It's likely.

Ansom might actually have been luckier to fall elsewhere, really. He's a combat-oriented warlord with royal blood (which increases stats), likely very high level. He can probably take several orders of magnitude more punishment than a frail caster like Wanda (remember, even Jack, a world-class caster, had half the hitpoints of a basic, generic garrison twoll. Casters seem to be very much made of glass in the Erfworld universe; the fact that Wanda was hurt by a fall doesn't mean that it would be more than a minor annoyance to Ansom.) Ansom's shrugging off that fall was a matter of him being tough, not a matter of him being lucky. Meanwhile, falling onto the wall put him in immediate danger of being overwhelmed by the number of enemies there.
Likewise, the fact that Wanda was able to disarm and dismount him so swiftly was, itself, luck working against him -- he's a very combat-capable unit, after all, so it can't be that simple most of the time. (She seems to have had some trick for one or the other, but not both.)

<boggle>

Well, I suppose that's ONE way of looking at it...

[Fjolnir]

there's also a hint that wanda is more combat capable than most casters, (given her chosen school of 'mancy I'm not surprised since to be most effective you need her closer to the front to get corpses to raise) though I agree she can't be as effective a warrior as ansom

[noncaloric]

Parson's speech may hint one possibility for dealing with the archon problem. If Ansom cannot keep the contract, Charlie ceases to be in the Coalition. The most plausible even I can think of on these lines is that the contract demands the arkenpliers, and becomes void if Ansom loses them.

[SteveD]

I'm just saying that even though Parson is in a REALLY bad position right now, he does still have options. And some of those options could result in what he has to shoot for... a Draw.

Eh? Parson can't go for a draw. If the battle reaches stalemate, then a good portion of his army dissolves in a few turns. Not good.

Anyway, aren't you guys taking this luck thing a little far? We barely know any of the actual combat rules of Erfworld, let alone how luckmancy actually works.