Relationship Woes and Advice, The Seventh Saga

[THAC0]

Arg. Got in a fight and don't know if it's my fault, my husband's fault, my parent's fault, the situations fault, or a mixture of everything.

Warning: Long rant is long and it's mostly me trying to get stuff out of my system.

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We're thinking of getting a house- wait- technically we put an offer in on the house and unless something horrible happens, we're getting the house.
I'm going to school full time, and thus having the time I've budgeted everything, figured out what we can reasonably afford, how long we need to keep it in this market to make the money back, etc. It seems like a good thing and we can even get an 8,000 tax credit because it's our first home.
Then my husband comes up that he wants to go to school. Great, right? Well, what does he want to go for? He's not sure. He wants to get an EMT license over the summer but...nothing else? He's thinking of being a paramedic, or working with the police and being a medic. Okay?
I visit my parents for Easter weekend. My dad was in the Air Force, like my husband is now, and says there's a plan that will allow him to go to school, problem is there's no way he can do the graveyard shift (which he's on) and go to school at the same time.
Great, I think. I'll try and talk him into getting onto a day shift, since we hardly see each other anyway (me going to school at 8 am and him at work till 7 am...we only cross paths a few hours).
I bet you're wondering where the home fits into this, right? Well the talk of him switching to day shift gets him into talking about how he might get out of the air force, or how if he stays in he might get sent somewhere else. This gets me flustered because not only would that mean taking a serious hit on the house as far as money goes, but moving would mean going to another school, which means my credits may or may not transfer, which means wasted work in school. The moving may or may not occur. It's up in the air. Who knows if it'll happen or not? But the threat is now looming. All that work and money would be gone.
I get mad at him, saying he never has a plan, which annoys me. I don't like this constant chaos all the time. He's had over four years to think of something, anything, that he'd like to do besides the air force, and has just jumped from idea to idea with no real plan. One day he wants to cross-train to gunner (which means a move to Florida and seeing him even less), or to a specialized field (moving to Texas), or nursing, or paramedic, or border patrol, or SWAT. I tell him EMT is a low-pay high-stress job and it's not really feasible as a long-term thing. I tell him I'm annoyed that we never do anything, like how we bought backpacks with a plan to get in shape for a grand canyon hike and then only went hiking once . He says I should wake him up and make us go, but how do I know if he has something to do that night? What days are good?
I start to cry and he goes back to his computer, which makes me even madder because last time we got in a fight he just complained to his friend over IM about the way I was acting. So I go clean the bathroom because that's what I do when I'm stressed.
I finish with the bathroom and he still doesn't try to patch things up. I don't want to talk because I know how it'll go. I can't complain because that's just his job, I can't know what's happening in the next 3 months, much less the next 3 years, and he'll tell me so.
He sends me a text and says he wants to talk, but he says if we want to do things then I just can't ignore him while he's home. Completely ignores anything else that I was upset about.
I'm tired of my feelings always being put last because 'that's the way things are'. I'm tired of asked to sacrifice more and more of a normal life because 'that's the way things are' and I'm tired of being looked down on for complaining.
I feel ill and upset and I don't know what to do.

Ok, for my clarification: You're going to school full time, he's in the AF and wants to go to school also, you've been at this location for 4 years already, and you've put in an offer on a house. Is that right?

Assuming that is correct, here's my comments and advice as another AF spouse:

1. School. He doesn't seem very devoted to the EMT thing. Has he gone to the base education center? They can provide lots of information regarding schooling. I'm not sure what his current level of schooling is, but it's really easy to get an associates without interfering with work, and almost as easy to finish a bachelors from a community college. AMU has good online degree offerings as well for many levels of education. He should have tuition assistance available to cover one degree.

2. The AF. It seemed to me from your post that you're expecting to stay where you are for the foreseeable future. Isn't the AF going to move you? We get moved every three years, even without changing career fields or anything. A house might not have been the best bet, but that seems like it's pretty much a done deal. If you do have to move, get a property manager and rent that baby out for a while.

As for not knowing the future, yes, it sucks. It's also not entirely your husband's fault. That said, you shouldn't be blaming yourself for feeling upset by that. It's completely normal. I'd write out your concerns, pick a few of the most important so as not to seem overwhelming, and try to set aside a time with your husband to talk things over.

[Pyrian]

Agamid: The simple reality is that decisions of that magnitude may not be held over the course of years. For example, if I were asked right now, I would probably agree (perhaps with some whining about the method of donation - hey, you're cute); however, if I found a serious partner in the meantime I would defer to her judgment even if I'd agreed a few years beforehand.

[Hell Puppi]

1. School. He doesn't seem very devoted to the EMT thing. Has he gone to the base education center? They can provide lots of information regarding schooling. I'm not sure what his current level of schooling is, but it's really easy to get an associates without interfering with work, and almost as easy to finish a bachelors from a community college. AMU has good online degree offerings as well for many levels of education. He should have tuition assistance available to cover one degree.

Yup....that's actually what we were talking about. We've actually only been in Tucson for about a year and a half, almost two years. We were in Wyoming previously. He's been told because of his career field that unless he specifically requests it, we're not moving. The problem now lies as it did in his halfway point last time- he wants to get out but has no idea what to do.
That coupled with the fact that he treats his job like a black sucking hole of need. He can't get on a day-shift, he says. Okay. He can't take school because he's a cop and it's some kind of...well there's reasons I guess, but it really just seems like excuses and I'm irritated (he can't take vacations because of his career field, he can't do blah blah blah...)
My concern was that as far as I knew the plan was for him to re-up and stay here for at least another four years, which means the housing market would probably be stable enough to sell the house for at least what we put into it. Meanwhile he could take classes while I continued to work on my degree. By the time his enlistment was up, I would be done with my Bachelor's, if not my masters, and he would have a good head start in school. From there I could get a job and support him while he finished up with whatever he wanted to do.
But somehow that plan turned into a mine field. It's my fault we got the house. It's my fault I'm holding him back from his military career (when he's said nothing about wanting to stay in, aside from changing careers, which he changes his mind on every 4 months or so). I can't get upset at anything because it's his job and the reason we never go out and do anything is because I never make him go.
It's just irritating. I mean I've somehow managed to go to school, do a budget, start my school loans, volunteer at a greyhound rescue, keep up the apartment and do the cooking and shopping...and he's not capable of finding out about school, or if he could take it?

Erm...dang I wrote an essay again. I just really don't have anyone to talk to about these sort of things. My friends are a good 2 hours drive away and I don't know anyone around here.

[Syka]

The study I read was that couples that live together prior to marriage are actually less likely to get married, with three exceptions: they are already engaged when they get married, the living together has a time frame enforced by an outside force (a summer lease), or they are both very religious.

The studies we saw in my relationships class said that when controlling for confounds such as religiosity and the like, couples who lived together prior to marriage were more likely to divorce than those who had not, with the exception being if they were already engaged. I can't remember off the top of my head what they attributed this to, though.

It was significant enough to be a predictor of divorce but it's not like if you cohabitated you are definitely going to divorce. The people involved in the relationship matter a lot more.

[skywalker]

If I was asked to be a sperm donor, I'd turn it down. I personally couldn't handle being the genetic father to one of my friend's child and not the actual father. Honestly, I have no idea how your friend would react. Other people in that situation have agreed to serve as a sperm donor. Really, the worse he could say is no. If you really don't want to ask him then I suppose you could go to the sperm bank and get an anoyomous donor.

+1, I wouldn't want my material running around in someone else's kid. It's imperative to me that I be the father for every baby I make.

The study I read was that couples that live together prior to marriage are actually less likely to get married, with three exceptions: they are already engaged when they get married, the living together has a time frame enforced by an outside force (a summer lease), or they are both very religious.

This is kinda what I was getting at, I think people who are likely to live together are less likely to be of a religious persuasion that is opposed to that. Those same types of religious persuasions also place a very high value on keeping a marriage intact.

I dunno, it kinda comes down to a question of whether or not you should sweat the small stuff. If your prospective spouse is a big snorer, or leaves wet towels all over the bathroom, or even is not so great in the bedroom (all things you find out primarily thru cohabiting, altho there are other ways), is that a good reason not to marry them? I mean, as long as the big things are right, do you need that period of living together to see if the little stuff is compatible?

Conversely, another possible reason why pre-cohabitants are just as susceptible to divorce is the potential for big things to be glossed over. You and your prospective mate may get along so well when it comes to the little things, that you miss the big things like politics, religion, and other, more board-appropriate topics like life goals, views of money, views of children, etc.

Good cohabitation partners do not necessarily make good spouses.

In other, somewhat related news, my girlfriend is currently in talks with her father, with a decision on where she goes to University quite possibly resulting from the proceedings. The choices are between here, in East Tennessee, or in Washington DC, most likely bringing an end to our relationship. I am... doing a strangely good job of not letting the tension get to me

EDIT: Damn, Syka semi-ninja'd (these posts take a while to write!) me saying religion had been controlled for. How strange. Leave it to the person studying the damn things to know better than me

[THAC0]

Yup....that's actually what we were talking about. We've actually only been in Tucson for about a year and a half, almost two years. We were in Wyoming previously. He's been told because of his career field that unless he specifically requests it, we're not moving. The problem now lies as it did in his halfway point last time- he wants to get out but has no idea what to do.
That coupled with the fact that he treats his job like a black sucking hole of need. He can't get on a day-shift, he says. Okay. He can't take school because he's a cop and it's some kind of...well there's reasons I guess, but it really just seems like excuses and I'm irritated (he can't take vacations because of his career field, he can't do blah blah blah...)
My concern was that as far as I knew the plan was for him to re-up and stay here for at least another four years, which means the housing market would probably be stable enough to sell the house for at least what we put into it. Meanwhile he could take classes while I continued to work on my degree. By the time his enlistment was up, I would be done with my Bachelor's, if not my masters, and he would have a good head start in school. From there I could get a job and support him while he finished up with whatever he wanted to do.
But somehow that plan turned into a mine field. It's my fault we got the house. It's my fault I'm holding him back from his military career (when he's said nothing about wanting to stay in, aside from changing careers, which he changes his mind on every 4 months or so). I can't get upset at anything because it's his job and the reason we never go out and do anything is because I never make him go.
It's just irritating. I mean I've somehow managed to go to school, do a budget, start my school loans, volunteer at a greyhound rescue, keep up the apartment and do the cooking and shopping...and he's not capable of finding out about school, or if he could take it?

Erm...dang I wrote an essay again. I just really don't have anyone to talk to about these sort of things. My friends are a good 2 hours drive away and I don't know anyone around here.

I know some people freak out about the "C" word, but have you considered seeing a counselor or at least talking to a chaplain? It doesn't seem like you're both on the same page, and the fact that he's foisting off the blame on you is a bad sign. It's also having a significant financial impact in the form of that house. If he can't or won't work with you, you need outside help. Even if he doesn't want to talk to someone, you can. The chaplain is completely confidential too and won't have any affect on his career.

[averagejoe]

Agamid: The simple reality is that decisions of that magnitude may not be held over the course of years. For example, if I were asked right now, I would probably agree (perhaps with some whining about the method of donation - hey, you're cute); however, if I found a serious partner in the meantime I would defer to her judgment even if I'd agreed a few years beforehand.

This is pretty much how I feel. I figure the more of my genetic material that's out there, the better off humanity is.

[Serpentine]

Funny... I heard a study some years ago that found that people in a particular "no-sex-before-marriage" religion were more likely to divorce than non-religious couples. I figured it was probably one or a combination of 1. non-religious people are more likely to live together first and so have a better idea of how compatible they are, 2. non-religious people are more likely to have a relationship for longer before deciding to marry, and/or 3. non-religious people are more likely to not marry at all and simply remain in a defacto relationship. Maybe we should start citing sources? I'll have a look...

edit:
Interesting note here: Husbands with wives better educated and older than themselves tend to be happier.

The Social and Demographic Correlates of Divorce and Separation in the United States finds non-religious people divorce more - take that my theory!

The Relationship between Cohabitation and Divorce: Selectivity or Causal Influence? found that people who are okay with living together before marriage tend to be okay with divorce.

Another interesting one for good measure.

I think there's another problem with these studies, though. Many people, who don't consider themselves to be particularly religious or who maybe don't even believe at all, will still identify themselves as a particular religion. I think this could mess up these studies a fair bit.


...
<.<
So... hows about them relationships, eh?

[Felixaar]

I know some people freak out about the "C" word.

Oh no! Cancer!

[Rawhide]

The Relationship between Cohabitation and Divorce: Selectivity or Causal Influence? found that people who are okay with living together before marriage tend to be okay with divorce.

What's better though, staying together in an unhappy marriage because it is not acceptable to get a divorce due to your beliefs, personal values and/or society, or getting a divorce?

[Zeb The Troll]

i'm considering asking a friend of mine to be a sperm donor for me. I don't plan on having kids for a few years yet but my cousin has been encouraging me to start putting it to my 'short-list' of potential sperm donors. My first choice is my friend (let's call him B), i'm just a little scared to ask him in case he says no, and i don't want it to be something he might worry about for the next few years... so, well, how would you males react to a female friend asking to be a sperm donor for her in a few years time? and would you want that to be in the back of your mind for 4-6 years time, or would you prefer to be asked closer to the desired time of pregnancy?

If I were asked, I'd be honored. I don't know what I would say because I'd have to take a lot of things into consideration, but even if I decided I couldn't do it, I don't think it would put any weirdness on the friendship. That being said, I'd prefer to be asked closer to the time when I would be needed, but I don't think there's any problem with going to your friend and putting out some feelers. "Say, John, if I were to try to have a baby using IVF in a few years, would you be willing to entertain the idea of being a donor?" That way he doesn't have to make a decision right away and it would give him time to really figure out how he'd feel about before the time comes.

@Hell Puppi - I agree 100% with everything THAC0 has said so far. You guys appear to be having some communications problems, he seems to be having some difficulty planning for his future, and you both seem to have some inaccurate information about the way the military works in general. All of this can probably be helped by speaking to a chaplain or a counselor and neither will have any negative effect on his career, should he choose to continue being in the AF.

As for your schooling, should you end up having to move, I would strongly encourage you to look into the many many schools that offer online courses. Most of them will accept the vast majority of the classes you've taken thus far, I'd expect, unless you're taking something particular to the school you're in. Additionally, this would remove the problem with moving from that point forward.

For his schooling - if he really wants to do it there are means available to him and, at least as of the time that I got out of the Army, getting set up to take classes locally for very little out of pocket is not difficult. (The first thing I'd recommend is looking in to CLEP and DANTES tests because he gets to take them for free and the study guides are readily available at most public libraries. I CLEP'd out of nearly half of my first year of schooling at the local community college.)

I hope you guys are able to work this out.

[Hell Puppi]

Oh no! Cancer!

What?



He's at least willing to talk today, which is good. I think maybe talking to someone would be an option if we get into a fight like that again. I know he cares about me...he just instantly bristles about certain things and we just end up getting into it.
I understand it's his personality, but it's a trust issue. I just can't talk to him about his work or trying to change his habits.
Thanks for all the advice everyone, I really do appreciate it.
Ah marriage...when you know you'd take a bullet for each other but it seems like you're always one second from knifing each other in the back.

Or maybe that's just my marriage...

[skywalker]

What's better though, staying together in an unhappy marriage because it is not acceptable to get a divorce due to your beliefs, personal values and/or society, or getting a divorce?

Just curious, no snark; did you read my post?

[Serpentine]

What's better though, staying together in an unhappy marriage because it is not acceptable to get a divorce due to your beliefs, personal values and/or society, or getting a divorce?

Oh, absolutely. But... um, aren't we getting into some slightly dodgy areas here?

[Coidzor]

So... How does one ease someone who has only ever kissed someone once before into learning how to kiss properly?

[Felixaar]

Oh, absolutely. But... um, aren't we getting into some slightly dodgy areas here?

Agreed we should probably get back to making fairly obvious jokes about the rules, it's less dangerous that way.

[Rawhide]

Just curious, no snark; did you read my post?

What part are you trying to bring up specifically?


The point I'm making is that measuring the percentages of marriages that end in divorce does not necessarily measure the number of happy marriages.

There are many reasons why a couple might stay together when they are not happy together, this includes the laws of where they live, the society they live in (i.e. is socially acceptable?), the type of livestyle they live (i.e. relaxed, hard and fast, etc.), what they expect from a relationship and how they expect to be treated by their partner (i.e. some women want to stay at home, do the cooking, look after the kids, etc. while others would never be happy doing that - some men expect women to do that while others don't. These expectations and acceptances are themselves influenced by their beliefs, the society they live in and so on), their beliefs and values (i.e. do they consider it wrong or inappropriate to get a divorce?), the reasons they got married (were they childhood sweethearts, did they accidentally get pregnant, did they believe that life would be perfect together for ever and ever, etc. etc. Heck, I've even heard of people getting temporarily married for a 'green card' or even a tax break) and so on.

A similar question but on a completely different track that many people have to consider is: Is it right to get/stay married for the kids? What if you weren't really happy with your partner and/or you were really unhappy with them?



I think it's important to marry a friend. To marry someone you can talk to. Someone you can get along with in the tougher times and can get through the toughest of times with (and don't try to deny it, those times will come in any relationship). They should be someone that you can get along with in all areas, and yes, that includes the bedroom. You must be compatible in the bedroom (that does include two people who have no interest in sleeping together whatsoever) just as you need to be compatible in the other areas. If in one aspect you're not compatible, that will put a strain on the rest of your relationship.

[Dallas-Dakota]

I know some people freak out about the "C" word.

Why would people freak out about Cookie?

[Coidzor]

Why would people freak out about Cookie?

Because it makes them wanna go on a cookie eating frenzy-rampage and if there are no cookies, well... They get sad.

Marriage has seemed weird to me ever since I was a kid and first heard about it in a religious context. Which was the first time I had heard about it other than a sort of mom and dad are married which I never bothered to think about since who thinks about their parents' marriage when they're 7 unless something is about to go down(or is already)?

In the end, I wonder if I'll find someone worth marrying, since it seems like such a demanding list, especially in light of how many people have problems with me. Attractive, intelligent, fun to be around, accepting of who I am, someone who I can talk to and who can talk to me, embracing of our sexuality, and a friend.

Hmm, come to think of it, since you want a friend in your lover unless you're just in it for a quick shag, why is it that some view it as a betrayal to have a friend express interest in them if it's not reciprocated, even in instances when no **** hits the fan as a result (as in, no going crazy stalking stuff, y'know, reasonable human interaction)...

I just don't see it... To mentally make it so that someone is forbidden to like you just seems... sick.

[Ashtar]

Coidzor: With love, patience, fun, understanding and positive reinforcement.

The best thing? To kiss and learn by doing, appreciating and enjoying, without having any pressure about doing it right. (Is there any way to doing it wrong? Apart maybe from biting your partner? And even then...)

[Felixaar]

Heh. On the recent topic of alchol, I just felt like posting this link.

Also, sorry Coid, no real ideas except take it slow and don't be too pushy.

[Coidzor]

Coidzor: With love, patience, fun, understanding and positive reinforcement.

The best thing? To kiss and learn by doing, appreciating and enjoying, without having any pressure about doing it right. (Is there any way to doing it wrong? Apart maybe from biting your partner? And even then...)

Hmm, indeed. I think that was the only actual time I've experienced true pain in the bedroom was when my throat was being bit by a girl... about stretched my neck skin out... Actually caused my vision to cloud and tear up from it.

Hmm, guess to just think of something to put her at ease before starting out then, eh? And maybe if my friends give us a damn minute to ourselves...

[xPANCAKEx]

coid

just tell them to ease off and take it slow - most beginers make the mistake of trying to much... or chewing your face off

or the dreaded "im going to try and ram my tongue down your throat".... urgh

[Zeb The Troll]

The best thing? To kiss and learn by doing, appreciating and enjoying, without having any pressure about doing it right. (Is there any way to doing it wrong? Apart maybe from biting your partner? And even then...)

It is absolutely possible to viewed as being "not good at kissing". Different people like different things. Without input from the recipient, a person will tend to do it how they like it, which may not be how the recipient likes it.

While it's important to tell your partner what you like and don't like, it's easy to see how this could be an uncomfortable conversation to have.

Him: Honey, I don't like it when you bite my lip like that. It kinda hurts.
Her: You're saying I'm a bad kisser?
Him:

But with a little tact and reassurance, it can be overcome.

[dish]

Ah marriage...when you know you'd take a bullet for each other but it seems like you're always one second from knifing each other in the back.

Or maybe that's just my marriage...

Not just yours. So not.

The number of times I've wanted to slit my husband's throat this month is quite embarrasingly high. But, then we make up again.

(I just told him that since I'm older and more educated than he is, according to Serp's study, he should be happier than average. He gave me this look:)

[averagejoe]

Ah marriage...when you know you'd take a bullet for each other but it seems like you're always one second from knifing each other in the back.

Or maybe that's just my marriage...

I thought that was the ideal. The only reason I even want to get married is to fulfill my lifelong dream of having a deadly rival with a still friendly personal relationship where we band together to fight common foes.

[The Rose Dragon]

(I just told him that since I'm older and more educated than he is, according to Serp's study, he should be happier than average. He gave me this look:)

Oh, dear sister, why'd you do that? No man wants to feel like he is not superior. You can't go around holding your fancy education over his head like a Damocles' sword.

You know my general advice: when you feel like slitting his throat, slit the throat of a cat instead. That way, he gets to live and you'd be doing the world a favor by killing more cats.

((Well, you'd be doing me a favor.))

[Quincunx]

Coidzor: A friend who wants to expand the relationship to being a lover should know the friend well enough to be able to tick off a few key points about the would-be lover:

Not already in a relationship
Not already trying to be in a relationship
Not hostile to the idea
Not content with the friendship unchanging (or 'status quo' if that's less confusing)

Way, way, way too many people a-courting misread one of these steps in their favor, and if the person courting you can be so wrong about reading you in the friendship, how well will they do understanding you as a lover? Not well. A relationship that began with one of those premises false would turn out. . .sickly.

The Rose Dragon: Congratulations on finding a way to leaven your urge to make people hate you with some humor. Now put down the cutlery and step away from the cat.

On marriage: The old saying that made the rounds in last night's chat was, "I couldn't have married anyone better, and she couldn't have married anyone worse!". (The remainder of the conversation, while affectionate, would aggravate the board censors.)

[The Rose Dragon]

The Rose Dragon: Congratulations on finding a way to leaven your urge to make people hate you with some humor. Now put down the cutlery and step away from the cat.

I have no such urge.

[Coidzor]

-cathate-snip-

Only if you're eating 'em too, otherwise it's just a waste... In general it seems to be a better idea not to emphasize any kind of imbalance outside of... odd master-slave things which... disturb me on multiple levels...

...Maybe it's just me but something about being rough equals at least seems... integral...

Hmm, here's another question to get your cogs a-whirling... at what point is it ok to begin thinking about the process of seduction? Two months? 5th date? formal declaration of couple status?

At what point is it ok to begin said seduction?

Not hostile to the idea

This. How can one claim to or want to be friends with someone if they're disgusting to the point of needing to be hostile to the idea of being asked out in the first place.

I mean, there's a difference between disinterest and outright hostility before any overtures are even made. I can even see how hostility can form due to the way said overtures play themselves out.

I'm just not following how it can be thought about enough to be actively considered some kind of betrayal and personal insult in and of itself (disregarding potential fiasco in execution/rejection). In that, if it's enough of a concern that you're considering it, how can it be unexpected enough to be a betrayal? If it's not a concern.... why was it being considered enough to be disregarded beforehand in order to be a betrayal?