Weighty Musings

[Crow]

Just popping in to plug my services. See the sig.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And I don't deny that they have their place too. After all, you need beautiful people to make ugly people look ugly, right?

[ericgrau]

I know someone who was thinking of playing a summoner who was as wide as he was tall. His logic was that he always had summons do everything for him so he never had to lift a finger.

But in general I'd save adventurers tend to be fairly physically active so being fit just comes with the trade.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yes, that's already been established.

With the latest backstory I've created, the character's obesity does come from overindulgence, but it stays on because of the unique Infernal pact she's made.

[Colmarr]

I can say I honestly don't know what any of my party members in any campaign have looked like. Or even my own characters for that matter.

Really?

I have to say that visualising my character is one of the first things I do (usually immediately after determining the character’s stats).

And visualising the other PCs always takes place shortly after the campaign starts. I simply can’t put myself into the story until I can mentally “see” the protagonists.

Which is not to say that the protagonists are always beautiful…

[Fiery Diamond]

Yes, people develop these "preferences" in a complete vacuum, not at all influenced by advertisement and the (heavily Photoshopped or cleverly shot) images of impossibly thin-yet-curvy models they're bombarded with for their entire lives.

Sure.

And the moon is cheese.


Also, "heavy women are beautiful too!" is no less objectifying. That's not the point! Women don't exist to be attractive and sexual objects. It shouldn't matter if they're thin or fat or neither, ugly or pretty or neither, and there's no real RPG art shouldn't depict real people of both genders (and "conventions of the genre" are no excuse; I'm looking at you, superhero comics and superhero comics games). Holy hell, people.

I concur. With this whole post. Besides, my fantasy girls have zeh good personality as what makes them so likable, regardless of their physical attractiveness. Objectifying is bad.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But it's unavoidable. I mean, most of us have fantasized about the kind of person we'd like to have sex with, and it's often very different from the person we fantasize about marrying, but that's just me.

[Dixieboy]

Women don't exist to be attractive and sexual objects.

Actually, biologically speaking, they do (Just like men function as the big guy who wins over said objects screws them and moves on, both roles suck and are unrealatable to the society we have build)

And without influence by the media most people would naturally prefer those of average weight over the more heavyset. Whatever you like it or not there is a few things you will naturally look at on a girl: hips, breast and waist, this is to ascertain whether or not she is "Fit for breeding" this is not something you consciously do, yet you do it. (Please forgive me for rambling without a source, which is very, very bad, but i have read books on the subject which all say the same thing, and i do not know the English title of these books and i'm too lazy to find out)

Look at Roman culture, they preferred thin girls with small breasts and wide hips
So did the Greek (Albeit there was less of a focus on smaller breast and smaller waists)
I have yet to see an image of a fat geisha (I apologize for the use of the word fat)

Look at paintings, drawings and statues through time, if something was supposed to be beautiful it was most likely thin (Referring to the female figure)

For the record, my characters are almost always a bit on the heavy side (Mebbe reflecting me? Whatever)
I had a character that weighed over 400 lbs, granted he was large size

[Reinboom]

I mean, would Wonder Woman really have the same readership if she looked real instead of some artist's fantasy?

I think Wonder Woman was a bad choice here.
Note, she's an immortal amazoness who is from a tribe that is eternally blessed with beauty (and various powers).
She defines her own reality which calls for her only to be unnaturally pretty.

Damn straight it's not appropriate battle gear. I'm planning on adding an interesting little note to a duchess NPC I've created. She's the Commander in Chief of her city-state's army, but she's a politician and not a fighter. She has a chainmail bikini...that she wears when she wants to liven up things in the bedroom with her soon-to-be fiancee.

Ow... do you realize what that would pinch if it was bedroom made? Ow.
Cloth under it, minimum. I can never see chainmail as the actual bikini though. Just ow.

But it's unavoidable. I mean, most of us have fantasized about the kind of person we'd like to have sex with, and it's often very different from the person we fantasize about marrying, but that's just me.

If the divide was just that, then attacks would be centered on spanking more. As well as various oddities, like catgirls, catboys, or those speaking M&Ms from commericals.


I believe casting ideals effect this more, though, not sure what those ideas are. My acting study is limited to that of 'acting for animation' courses I took, and my film study is almost nil.
What I mean by this is that, look at television or movies. At the people who are cast.
Noting that PCs are the center of a story, a show. There could easily be other types of characters that are chosen, however, players tend to choose what they want to watch/play (or design what they rolled to be such).

Of course, now I might just be talking out of my ear of what I just went in to the other.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I can't speak for other people's reasoning, but I pretty much only play tall and skinny characters. My heaviest was a Catfolk Warblade at 200 pounds, but even my halflings are 4'. Part of the reason is that I avoid beatsticks, but primarily it is because I can't picture playing something so different from me(6'3", 150). Whenever I think of a character, it starts skinny unless there's a reason to do otherwise.

[horseboy]

People like to look at fit and good-looking members of their species of whatever sex. That's pretty much a given. Unfortunately there's a stark orthodoxy in fantasy art over what the ideals of fit and good-looking are, this being largely determined largely by contemporary cultural mores and by the personal fetishes of popular fantasy artists (I'm looking at you Elmore, Vallejo, Bell, and Frazetta ). These images get popularised through imitation and, like it or not, the oiled-posing-pouch and/or chainmail bikini look have become iconic of our genre.

We can probably add Rob liefeld to that list.

I mean, would Wonder Woman really have the same readership if she looked real instead of some artist's fantasy?

Depends on how into bondage they are.

What I find highly amusing is when someone creates a character that doesn't look particularly attractive (or downright ugly, depending on who you ask), but has Charisma out the wazoo. It's always interesting when a far-from-pretty character can win over allies with sheer force of personality.

I had that happen once. Wanted a big, scary guy but went ahead and rolled randomly for height, build, weight, and appearance stat. It took some finagling but still kinda got what I had planned, thanks to Impressive Scars and Glorious Past. That way he could still, somehow have a patchwork look and still have a 96 Appearance.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think Wonder Woman was a bad choice here.
Note, she's an immortal amazoness who is from a tribe that is eternally blessed with beauty (and various powers).
She defines her own reality which calls for her only to be unnaturally pretty.

True. Very true. What'd be a better example then?

Ow... do you realize what that would pinch if it was bedroom made? Ow.
Cloth under it, minimum. I can never see chainmail as the actual bikini though. Just ow.

Yeah, I know. Yes, there'd be cloth under it, more likely something a bit thicker, to keep it from pinching the skin, and it'd likely come off after foreplay. Yes, I know, the chainmail bikini is impractical. That doesn't make it any less funny.

I can't believe I just said that.

If the divide was just that, then attacks would be centered on spanking more. As well as various oddities, like catgirls, catboys, or those speaking M&Ms from commericals.

Buh?

I believe casting ideals effect this more, though, not sure what those ideas are. My acting study is limited to that of 'acting for animation' courses I took, and my film study is almost nil.
What I mean by this is that, look at television or movies. At the people who are cast.
Noting that PCs are the center of a story, a show. There could easily be other types of characters that are chosen, however, players tend to choose what they want to watch/play (or design what they rolled to be such).

Of course, now I might just be talking out of my ear of what I just went in to the other.

No no. You raise a good point. Though that may simply be an extension of the media's general preference for the beautiful people. *shrug*

[Colmarr]

Look at Roman culture, they preferred thin girls with small breasts and wide hips
So did the Greek (Albeit there was less of a focus on smaller breast and smaller waists)
I have yet to see an image of a fat geisha (I apologize for the use of the word fat)

Look at paintings, drawings and statues through time, if something was supposed to be beautiful it was most likely thin (Referring to the female figure)

Western renaissance art almost entirely disagrees with you.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Could you elaborate please, Colmarr?

[Dixieboy]

Western renaissance art almost entirely disagrees with you.

Ah, pwned i was, my bad wording has put me down, those girls are however still painted as average/thin Which is what i should've said instead of thin, however my language does not difference between the two and as such i forget such things

http://www.vincesear.com/wp-content/.../03/sacred.JPG This pretty much shows what he means

BEWARE contains bewbies

[Reinboom]

True. Very true. What'd be a better example then?

Black Cat would be a good example. Those things would cause so many back problems...

Also, a HUGE note must be given to power girl. However, she 'defines her own' being from Krypton, and kryptonians might just be... ick.
But, ... ew.

[Colmarr]

Could you elaborate please, Colmarr?

Certainly.

During the western renaissance (14th to 17th centuries IIRC), there was a strong trend toward "larger" body types in art, particularly for women.

Note: Some of the art works linked in this post contain nudity (as in common in Renaissance work). Don't click them unless you're willing to see it.

Peter Paul Rubens is the name I personally associate with it most* (eg this painting and Venus at the Mirror) but many of the artists of the time exhibited similar tendencies.

See, for example, Botticelli's La Primavera, Titian's Sacred and Profane Love and Francois Clouet's Dame au Bain.

My point was simply that, contrary to Dixieboy's generalisation, art has not always associated beauty with thinness.

* and it coined the term Rubenesque to describe a woman who was "larger" yet still beautiful.

EDIT: I see Dixieboy has ninja'd me to an extent

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see.

Well, kind of. I'm not going to deny I find them stimulating...

[Dixieboy]

I did use the words "Most likely"
And agreed with you i have done.

Though i retain my point

[horseboy]

No no. You raise a good point. Though that may simply be an extension of the media's general preference for the beautiful people. *shrug*

Then there's William Dafoe and Edward James Olmos. Which does kinda prove the point. They're well known because they're easy to pick out cause, well, they're not pretty boys.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Certainly.

During the western renaissance (14th to 17th centuries IIRC), there was a strong trend toward "larger" body types in art, particularly for women.

Note: Some of the art works linked in this post contain nudity (as in common in Renaissance work). Don't click them unless you're willing to see it.

Peter Paul Rubens is the name I personally associate with it most (eg this painting and Venus at the Mirror, but many of the artists of the time exhibited similar tendencies.

See, for example, Botticelli's La Primavera, Titian's Sacred and Profane Love and Francois Clouet's Dame au Bain.

My point was simply that, contrary to Dixieboy's generalisation, art has not always associated beauty with thinness.

Ah yes. I wondered if Reubens would show up somehow.

I have been wondering why no one's taken a stab at this particular question though.

More to the topic of RPG's I find it odd that while there are fat people of certain races (dwarves, mostly, with the occasional human NPC), the other races seem to have ungodly metabolisms. The most obvious culprits are elves, and the newly created eladrin. Either their metabolisms are so powerful that they don't need to exercise to stay slim, or their traditional diet consists of a celery stick and a glass of water at each meal. Seriously, I know Tolkien's elves, who were the inspiration for D&D's elves and eladrin, had the bodies of gods, but the elves and eladrin of D&D aren't semi-angelic beings (I know that's more of a description of people like Gandalf and Tom Bombadil, but elves were still Tolkien's favorites.)

Tieflings seem to succumb to this too. Aside from a few exceptions I've heard of (all of them individual characters and not representative of the race as a whole) tieflings are mant to be trim too. I think, but I'm not sure, it has to do with them being the "kinky" race. They're meant to be the alluring, exotic people you're told not to like, but you do nonetheless. Though honestly that description applies more to female tieflings, since male tieflings get bony ridges on their face (which I think is actually pretty cool).

[Ascension]

My point was simply that, contrary to Dixieboy's generalisation, art has not always associated beauty with thinness.

Those women are still far from corpulent. Anyway, it's my understanding that the idea of plumpness as attractiveness came from the fact that only the wealthy could afford to eat enough and work little enough to stay plump.

Actually, there's another strike against fat characters in typical fantasy settings... anyone not from a wealthy background should probably be more concerned about stat penalties from malnutrition...

[Reinboom]

Bony ridges on tiefling males faces?
Sexy.

[Alcopop]

Also, "heavy women are beautiful too!" is no less objectifying. That's not the point! Women don't exist to be attractive and sexual objects. It shouldn't matter if they're thin or fat or neither, ugly or pretty or neither, and there's no real RPG art shouldn't depict real people of both genders (and "conventions of the genre" are no excuse; I'm looking at you, superhero comics and superhero comics games). Holy hell, people.

I'm sorry, how exactly is "heavy women are beautiful too" objectifying? No where in that statement does it say that "(heavy) Women exist to be sexual objects". It says, Woman of a Heavy body type can be considered attractive (/as well/). It does NOT say that their purpose is to be attractive, or that they are solely attractive and nothing else. You’re presuming too much.

It's talking about body type and concepts of beauty not people. best to make the distinction.

At OP, I guess it boils down to selling a product, popular "taste" (or at least what’s perceived as popular taste) and convention.

Interestingly we can see a lot of people here whos tastes don't meet this "standard" (for lack of a better word). I for one am more attracted to woman of petite builds.

Ah, pwned i was, my bad wording has put me down, those girls are however still painted as average/thin Which is what i should've said instead of thin, however my language does not difference between the two and as such i forget such things

It has to do with what’s considered healthy, if you were skinny back in those days it means you were poor and badly fed. Being fat these days, as a gross generalization, denote the same things.

[Tsotha-lanti]

This thread is getting painful to read.

Well, I quickly got off track in my response, yes, but it does seem to me that "no real RPG art shouldn't depict real people of both genders" is pretty much saying there's no room for pretty boys/girls.

"Depict real people" means "no pretty people" ! Your logic is impeccable!

But it's unavoidable. I mean, most of us have fantasized about the kind of person we'd like to have sex with, and it's often very different from the person we fantasize about marrying, but that's just me.

You do not understand the word - and I'm not going to educate you on basic feminist theory in a RPG forum. I provided some good links, which provide more good links, and so on and so on. Alternatively, I suggest googling "feminism 101" and going from there.

I'm sorry, how exactly is "heavy women are beautiful too" objectifying?

It's "as objectifying as" "thin women are beautiful."

It's the idea that women's attractiveness has any sort of inherent value or importance. Beauty as a value is a product of and a contributor to objectification. It doesn't matter whether you say "thin women are beautiful" or "fat women are beautiful", you're still valuing them based on appearance.

By becoming aware that we are all taught to think like this - women and men both - and then realizing the idiocy of it, you can start to contribute, in a small way, to society being less objectifying.

And you cannot talk about people's bodies without talking about people, directly or indirectly - especially in the context of western society, where the word "fat" automatically makes people think of qualities like "stupid", "ugly", "sick", "greedy", and so on. (Excellent post on the subject.)

Links again (because no, I am not here to educate, I am here to argue points):

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
http://kateharding.net/
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/

[Tengu_temp]

You can't really put drugs in a D&D book

Man, you don't know? Rub the ink-heavy illustrations and then smell them. Have fun.

[Quincunx]

Tengu: You are an evil, evil man.

To all those with metal fetishes: Remember, if you must go for the hair-snagging inconvenience of a cold chainmail bikini, make it a) easily removable or b) with strategic cut-outs.

(Robin Hood and Maid Marian embrace)
*CLANG!*
"Oh, that's my chastity belt. It's an Everlast."
". . .I noticed. . ."

--Robin Hood: Men in Tights

dixieboy: In English, you're talking about studies that surveyed male preferences in female waist-hip ratio, studies that linked high estrogen levels (=good breeders) to classic female shapeliness, studies that quantified average attractiveness as. . .well, the averaged face, and beauty as the averaged face with one unusual feature, and so on. The study of the face had the benefit of being repeated across cultures and probably does not have much Western bias.

The venerated heavy figures were Neolithic fertility figures everywhere, the laughing Buddha, Gibson girls of the U.S.A. circa 1900, Central American art of an era I can't remember at the moment, and I'm drifting off topic. Biology told these people to look for the shapely, but culture told them to look for wider versions of that shape.

To those who are artists: Are idealized bodies easier to draw than ones with flaws? At the least, when I search for tutorials on drawing, they focus on drawing a figure slender enough that the prospective artist can see how the skeletal structure influences the drawing. I don't believe it's coincidental that Erfworld over there, with one the highest-caliber artists in my webcomic rounds, is the only one that draws a realistic and overweight protagonist.

I'd love to get into a discussion about my womanly wedding tackle and whether or not you all enjoy it--scratch that, I wouldn't--I'll just say that so far as characters are concerned, I'll only change one major physical characteristic at a time. It's hard enough to think about how the world changes through the mind of a gnome than to think like an exceptionally tall or heavy gnome.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've always thought about the ideals of beauty and/or masculinity in D&D, and in RPG's in general. Am I the only one who's actually tired of anorexic wizards, buxom warrior women in chainmail bikini's and muscle-bound Conan clones?

Long story short: archetypes and marketing. The archetypes that involve heavy bodies (Santa-Buddha-Jolly Fat Man) aren't immediately suited to adventuring. Then of course, there's the "sex sells" maxim that's been proven true again and again. Skinny people are in fashion for most people, so any company with half a brain will include skinny people in their product if possible.

Myself, I like curvy women but dwarves don't do anything more for me than bulimic supermodels. For a while I've wanted to play an overweight warrior with self-esteem issues, but somehow it hasn't happened yet.

TS

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I know. I have similar plans for a warlock but at the moment I'm still playing tough and lean male paladins.

I visited those feminism sites that have been posted, but so far I still don't understand why this thread is offensive.

[Quincunx]

Not for the usual reasons, I'm happy to say. The usual way for a thread like this to be a crashing disaster is for someone to say, or use different words but have the train of thought, "I don't like this kind of eye candy! Give me my kind of eye candy!" or "If there are girls here I wanna do them!" or indiscriminate filthy puns and jokes*.

Zousha, you're treading the line near offensive because of your constant use of absolutes ("unavoidable [to fantasize]", "impossible for someone not to objectify", although you've eased off of that in this page of the thread) and are only not being offensive because I've read you elsewhere and know that you're currently incapable of imagining someone else's viewpoint--at least to the point where you understand that your generalizations are your opinions, not axioms. But heck, it is a general problem and not incited by the topic at hand, you are at least thinking about the topic at hand instead of blind acceptance, and this is a roleplaying board--there's few better practice grounds for learning how to think your way into other people's heads.

Oh. Whoops. "Yeah, but if fanservice were not in the books, what sweaty hormone-driven new players would even look at them?" was offensive, yes, and also humorous. It's much easier to get that combination of offensive-yet-humorous when you're aiming it at the majority or the group in power. I'll let a self-identified sweaty, hormone-driven new player drop by and let us know if it was too offensive to be humorous.**

*I'm told this is a bad thing. (look of innocence) (ineffectual one) (/sarcasm)

**The entire post, sans the first footnote, is a sarcasm-free zone, but especially this paragraph is. Just because I think that comment is the way things work here doesn't mean it is.