Finally the four words! (spoiler)

[tcrudisi]

Optimystik, while I agree with you that the stammer possibly served the purpose of additional dramatic value, the prophecy still reads to me as if saying the words is supposed to be important.
How often, in real life, do you try to convince yourself to do something by talking to yourself out loud?

I do when I'm alone. In fact, I relate to V completely in this strip. Sometimes I must speak out-loud to convince myself to do something. So to me, V saying the 4 words was important for hir to gain the UAP.

Even if you argue that Vaarsuvius used those words to convince himself to do it and wouldn't have done it without them, it's more or less irrelevant if V had said those words aloud or just thought them, or just stood there for a moment frantically trying to decide. So the words are still far less important than the prophecy makes them sound.

There's something to be said about hearing something versus thinking it. I find when I talk to myself it lends a lot more power and credence to what I am saying versus when I just think it. You can think something quite a bit, but when people hear something spoken aloud, it really helps to solidify resolve.

Also, "he convinced himself to accept this power" still doesn't count as "achieving" something, IMO.

If V is the biggest obstacle to getting UAP, then having to overcome himself would count as achieving something. In this case I feel that is what we have.

On top of it, if we take the prophecy word-for-word as you suggested, not ALL of V's reasons were "wrong". Saving his family is still a major motivation. V has shown us in the past that he's entirely aware that making a deal with the devil is a bad, bad idea. If a Deus Ex Machina had saved V's family at this very moment and V had become aware of it, he likely would've flat out refused, power or no power, because his initial motivation for making such a deal would be gone.
Of course, one could argue that "all the wrong reasons" is simply a figure of speech and is not to be taken literally and simply means that SOME of V's reasons are wrong. But if we do that, we need to assume the same can be true for the rest of the prophecy's phrasing.

Or we can assume that V had another way to save his family. Oh wait, V had that? I guess that means we can take "saving the family" out of the motivation. So what are we left with? Well, V hasn't been thinking about Haley or the others in this time -- only his family which V has another way to save their lives. So that leaves power. So V is accepting this deal for power; not to save hir family's lives, not to bring Roy back (no rezzing), not even to meet up with the others. Just for the power. That sounds like a horrible, horrible reason to me.

The problem is that the exact phrasing of the prophecy created certain expectations, expectations that apparently many of us feel the comic has failed to live up to. The four words sounded like they'd be an important and crucial declaration to a certain being, and they end up a hesitant stammer that V says to himself as a form of pep talk, or thinking out loud. The power sounds like it should be, well, complete and ultimate, but here it's riddled with ifs and buts. One could argue that even the restriction on the use of Wish, one of the most useful spells, is enough to render the description of "complete" as inapplicable.
Add to that the various other little nuances I listed that make this development vaguely unsatisfying and anticlimactic, and maybe you can see why I am sceptical of this.

The problem is that you are not looking through V's eyes. V has no one there to motivate hir except for hirself. The power IS complete and ultimate arcane power. I don't see how not being able to replicate divine spells makes that power any less arcane. Those four words were a very important crucial declaration to a certain being: hirself. Without them, V doesn't convince hirself to take the power.

You may feel that this devlopment is unsatisfying and anticlimatic, but that is likely because you had this entire arc planned out for what you wanted to see. Personally, I may not have been jumping out of my seat, but my heart was wrenching whenever V was making the decision. When V said those four words, I immediately sympathised with hir and was pleading silently for hir not to take it. So while it may not have been a crowning of awesome (or whatever it's called), it was definitely one of the strongest strips to date.

[Animefunkmaster]

1) V disintegrating Kubota directly led him to argue with Elan and then fly off on his own, leaving him powerless when the ABD turned up and forced into the deal with the demons.

2) OK, so V didn't say the words to Kubota, but he said them at him, which sort of counts.

Going with your comments:

Everyone has to admit, if those words were said, (disintegrate, gust of wind) it was to the right person and it was the right time (Elan would have a tough situation with all of Kabuto's items). And V's reasons for doing so were... well... wrong. I would say V has more wrong reasons to kill Kabuto than to take the Fiend Deal.

Actually, when you think about it. Reasons for taking the orb might not be wrong (The title is the biggest credit to these words be THE 4 words). Either way believing what a fiend says is like trusting an Imp with your resurrection, both possible outcomes they described seem shady at best.

Edit: Actually a better time would be to Kill Kabuto while Therkla was still alive (ToT)

[tcrudisi]

Oh, and one comment to those saying that "I.... I must succeed" are only 3 words, I have a couple of comments/questions:

Put them into MS Word and do a word count. How many does that say?

If someone asks you how many dice you own, what would you answer? Would you say six (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20) or would you say something larger (I have 8 d4's, 73 d6's, 5 d8's, 10 d10's, 2 d12's, and 13 d20's for a total of 111 dice). Personally, I think almost everyone would answer the latter.

If you wrote a paper for an English professor who wanted you to use at least 5,000 words, do you really think they mean 5,000 different words?

[The Mormegil]

I'm with the people that believe these are not four words. This is the Giant playing with us. I expect something unexpected.

[TARINunit9]

I REALLY didn't want the "four words spoken to the right yadda yadda yadda" to happen yet for a multitude of reasons, mostly personal, but all inconsequential.

[Kish]

Everyone has to admit,

I would venture that that construction is effectively never true, whatever may follow it. There are people who defend Vaarsuvius' reasons for killing Kubota (I'm not one of them) and people who say that s/he was not addressing those words to a being, but rather saying one of them at Kubota and the other three at a pile of ash.

But it's moot now anyway. If I didn't know better, I would say "everyone has to admit" that the four words were "I...I must succeed."

[Baalthazaq]

I think these are the four words.
I'm also disappointed that they are.

I agree the four words were not the reason the for the ultimate power, even if he had to convince himself that can be done in his head. The apologetics here is amazing, seriously.

There are 3 words.
"No, he said 'I' twice"
Fine, he said 96 words throughout the comic.

Inevitably this will be countered with: No, we're only counting:
Words in a sentence. (Fail)
Words in a speech bubble. (Pass)
Important words. (Fail)
The last 4 words in any given sentence (Fail on principle)
Words not broken by other people speaking (Pass)

I think the giant made a mistake in not making it "I refuse to fail".
It could be a clever way of making the forums go nuts for giggles.
It could be a ruse and the real 4 words are coming later.

All are perfectly reasonable options. No need to get all "No! This is the true path brothers! Follow me!"

[Rolaran]

Just thought of something that may help explain the apparent discrepancies:

1) The use of the same word twice, and
2) The fact that touching the orb, not saying the words, was what gave V the ultimate arcane power.

Perhaps before she says the words, V is still wavering, and saying those words is the last bit of psyching V's-self up enough to go through with it. In this case, 2 is resolved, since had V not said the words, V would not have attained UAP.

As for 1, if we assume V is talking to V's-self, consider what V would say if V were attempting to encourage someone else. Most likely, it would take a form like:

"Roy, you must succeed."

However, since this is a 1st-person situation, the translation "Vaarsuvius, I must succeed." is grammatically iffy. Obviously, V has too great a love of language to allow such bizarreness. Instead, V simply repeats the "I".

Having said that, I think it might have been better if V had gone with "I, Vaarsuvius, must succeed." Removes the ambiguity while remaining semi-grammatical.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I'll admit to not being anywhere close with my guess. However, I am overjoyed that I won't have to read anyone (seriously) saying that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." were the four words. Can I get an allejuliah? ALLEJULIAH!

Huh? Are you kidding? Those are totally the 4 words! It's been proven again and again.

The Oracle said "four words to the right being". Nothing in that about different words, not even by implication.

Really, I can't see how it can't be more cut and dried than it already is.

Well, here's how it could be more cut and dried:
"three words blah blah blah". I mean, really... Who is counting that leading "I"? That was just a hesitation, while the kicker, so to speak, comes when V says "I must succeed." The Oracle could have just as easily have said three words, and then we would have had more combinations of three words within every lengthy sentence. I mean, just looking at V's previous monologue in this strip we have "nay, their very souls" as a juicy bit of four-wordiness.

[Kish]

No need to get all "No! This is the true path brothers! Follow me!"

Huh? Of course there's a need to...

Oh, I get it, you're saying we shouldn't be sexist. *clears throat*

NO! THIS IS THE TRUE PATH, SISTERS AND BROTHERS! FOLLOW ME!

[Greep]

^From the 'Finally the Four Words' thread.

I really liked the comic, and at first I thought, 'Hey! The four words!' But then I realized that, as Dish said, the Giant is a much better writer than this, and this probably isn't the four words. Are they coming up soon? Mehbi.

What I think is happening here is that the Giant is messing with our heads.

Bravo, Rich. I thought I was so far out that that couldn't happen.

wait... that wasn't good writing?

STONE HIM!

Edit: I also agree these must be the four words (title of comic... duh). I'm just dissapointed because "Disintigrate. Gust of wind" honestly was more closely fitting.

A)They were the only four words in that comic spoken by V, unlike these.
B)unlike these, they literally caused something to happen that eventually led to power (634's words don't actually cause anything. He would've done it without saying it).

I don't agree that "I" repeating is very ambiguous, though. If someone says "no, no!" would you say he said one word or two? I would say he said two :/

[MasterOfArcane]

I can think of an alternative wrong reason. The right reason would be " I must succeed" and pick the red orb. He must succeed, so he should put his trust in his party members rather then in a bunch of fiends and a sketchy soul meld. The reason he is saying the 4 words is because of his orb choice.

[B. Dandelion]

I REALLY hope this isn't it.

I get the logic train: four words to self = influence = action of touching = hey presto. It's kind of annoying, though, because it's obviously an indirect fulfillment, and that DIDN'T count for Belkar's prophecy. You could argue Belkar "caused the death of Roy" with the ring of jumping and his subsequent death. You could even have Belkar indirectly kill Roy and later kill the Oracle TOO, since they weren't mutually exclusive outcomes, but that whole extended bit plus the Oracle admitting he hadn't thought so either argues really strongly against the indirect influence. Roy's death could not have qualified. But V talking to herself is really important here?

[Warren Dew]

I REALLY hope this isn't it.

I get the logic train: four words to self = influence = action of touching = hey presto. It's kind of annoying, though, because it's obviously an indirect fulfillment, and that DIDN'T count for Belkar's prophecy.

How do you think it compares to Haley's prophecy? That one also seemed kind of weak to me.

[David Argall]

wait... that wasn't good writing?

Not by the standards we have come to expect of our writer.

STONE HIM!

Hey! We get it for free. We can't expect them all to be winners.

"Disintigrate. Gust of wind" honestly was more closely fitting.

those "words" were inferior in all respects. "Disintegrate" "Gust of Wind" were not 4 words, just the titles of two spells. They were not spoken to anybody, in particular not to Kubota. The timing was hardly crucial. And it is a week before V gets power, after speaking a great many sets of 4 words.

A)They were the only four words in that comic spoken by V, unlike these.

V speaks ten more immediately afterwards, and even more soon afterwards.

B)unlike these, they literally caused something to happen that eventually led to power

V's leaving the fleet was not motivated by the result of casting these spells, at least according to V. Note she primarily blames Durkon, who was not even present. And when we put in "eventually", we open the the field to just about every 4 word statement ever made by V.

(634's words don't actually cause anything. He would've done it without saying it).

This is taking entirely too narrow a definition of "how" here. To use the same sort of language... "How will V acknowledge his sex?" "When she is wearing a hat." Wearing the hat is merely a sign of the time, not a cause, and V's 4 words were merely a sign the time had come, not a cause.

[DoctorJest]

You mean as soon as you find out whether it's X or Y, [s]he dies?

Its more complicated than that. If you discover if it's an X or a Y, your very act of observation will render the observation itself moot. If V's chromosome is an X or a Y is only a valid question while in a quantum state of androgyny.

[B. Dandelion]

...You're seriously arguing that the strip wouldn't indicate the prophecy was being fulfilled if the prophecy was being fulfilled.

I'm putting words in her mouth here, but I think it was more along the lines of the Giant, who has been obviously leading into this for a while, has dropped a huge neon sign on the point that V's words are not a direct link to anything. V's prophecy was to be fulfilled by saying the right words. Here she is accepting a bargain, but in a specifically nonverbal fashion. What the HELL is the point of this additional level of complexity, that serves no apparent narrative function of its own, when it would have been easier and completely unambiguous if he'd had it be a matter of V saying "I accept your terms"? And, plus -- THE MATRIX? Really? What's next, jokes about Al Gore inventing the internet?

How do you think it compares to Haley's prophecy? That one also seemed kind of weak to me.

Basically a hook for the audience. For Haley itself it seemed like a complete rip-off, and I thought she'd have likely done the same thing regardless of his advice. I didn't understand why she said he'd been helpful later on, so it kinda bugged me in that sense too.

[Cúchulainn]

I'm putting words in her mouth here, but I think it was more along the lines of the Giant, who has been obviously leading into this for a while, has dropped a huge neon sign on the point that V's words are not a direct link to anything. V's prophecy was to be fulfilled by saying the right words. Here she is accepting a bargain, but in a specifically nonverbal fashion. What the HELL is the point of this additional level of complexity, that serves no apparent narrative function of its own, when it would have been easier and completely unambiguous if he'd had it be a matter of V saying "I accept your terms"? And, plus -- THE MATRIX? Really? What's next, jokes about Al Gore inventing the internet?

You know it occurs to me that the possibility of the Giant doing this on purpose is becoming more and more likely, but he's doing it specifically to spite everyone. I mean yeah, he dropped a huge frickin' neon sign and named it 'all the wrong reasons' and STILL, STILL there are people who don't think these are the 4 words. I lack the proper means to take revenge on these people, but the fact that the comic is making them all sweat and choke all on their own pleases me. Greatly.

[Aaron]

You know it occurs to me that the possibility of the Giant doing this on purpose is becoming more and more likely, but he's doing it specifically to spite everyone. I mean yeah, he dropped a huge frickin' neon sign and named it 'all the wrong reasons' and STILL, STILL there are people who don't think these are the 4 words. I lack the proper means to take revenge on these people, but the fact that the comic is making them all sweat and choke all on their own pleases me. Greatly.

I have to mostly agree. I find it funny that many people are STILL saying that these aren't the four words. Yet Rich dropped a colossal sized neon sign right in front of us and they STILL won't admit that they might be wrong!

[Zeitgeist]

After skimming through this thread, I'm not quite sure where I stand.

On the surface, it seems very likely that the Giant intended these to be the four words, given the context and comic title.

There's one thing I'm sure most people agree on: This is the time of V getting ultimate power. There is also one other thing I'm 95% sure of, and that's that the words have already been spoken. He's already getting the power, so any words after this are irrelevant.

So to me, the question isn't whether or not the four words have been spoken, but rather if these are indeed those words. Well, we could do a study of all relevant 4-word combos he's spoken in the past, but that would take forever. It's my opinion that the only other phrase that really holds up to the prophesy is the "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." theory. There were a couple others, but they were hardly glamorous.

Now as for the idea that this is only 3 words, wrong. It's 4 words, the only question to ask is how important is that first "I"? One argument is that the "I" was emphasis on V addressing himself, so there's no confusion about the "being" that he's talking to. It could also be to emphasis that there was a decision being made, and thus the words spoken were indeed significant. While the actual act of touching the orb gave him power, the very fact that the "I" was repeated is actually helpful for the case that those were the 4 words, because it shows that the words were actually helping V make the decision, and without those words, he may not have been able to "convince" himself to do it. That's why it's 4 words, and every single one of those words is important.

Actually, I'm *fairly* satisfied if these are the 4 words. I think it would be very clever on the Giant's part of the "right being" would actually be V himself.

Just to run it by:

Right being: V, self convincing
Right time: V said this during a countdown. Time was emphatic.
Right words: A desire to succeed is very important.
Wrong reasons: His reason was not to succeed - it was out of pride.

The more I think about it, this whole comic was written with the point of making sure that the 4 words would be obvious. That whole part about them suggesting V kill himself as an alternate method - there was NO REASON at all for them to even bring that up except to provide an alternate to ensure that V would be doing it for the wrong reasons. That whole part was unnecessary except to that end.

So I guess I'm actually more inclined to think those were the words.

[Wisp Wings]

I think we are all forgeting one main factor- is V truley achieving COMPLETE AND TOTAL ULTIMATEarcane power? I believe the answer is no. Complete would imply that it covers all areas of the arcane- INCLUDING wish. Since the power s/he is being granted does not cover this, it should be concluded that the power is NOT complet.

As for the title, it might be a reference to the speech that Celia made at the end of the The Order of the Stick's trial, were she mentioned that Caotic can do the right things for all the worng reasons.

[CrimsonAngel]

I thought that comic would end these threads...

[kusje]

You know it occurs to me that the possibility of the Giant doing this on purpose is becoming more and more likely, but he's doing it specifically to spite everyone. I mean yeah, he dropped a huge frickin' neon sign and named it 'all the wrong reasons' and STILL, STILL there are people who don't think these are the 4 words. I lack the proper means to take revenge on these people, but the fact that the comic is making them all sweat and choke all on their own pleases me. Greatly.

You do realize that B. Dandelion is arguing that these are not the 4 words right?

[Lissou]

I'm in the "the prophecy happened" side of this debate.

I think it is "absolute arcane power" because nobody has ever had that amount of power, ever. They said it's more than the deal of a lifetime, that tyit's the type of deal that has never happened before. Instead of a single split, V is getting 3. The power is far superior to anything V probably considered ultimate arcane power (which I guess would be epic level magic).

I think it's the right four words because V's hesitation is important. It proves that he needed to say these words to convince himself, and therefore that the words were essential.
I do talk to myself to convince myself. I know a lot of people who do, and I don't find that hard to believe at all. Even less so in a story with dramatic tension.
The right being: himself. Obviously, he can only achieve power by himself, and not because of someone else. I like the implications. He won't get it by asking someone else, but by asking himself.
The right time, obviously, it's time-sensitive here. It's an opportunity he'll never have again. And there is a time stop, so "the right time" probably would be "any time within the time stop".

Also, from a writer's point of view, I don't find the prophecy badly worded. It's supposed to be vague and misleading so we can be surprised. I was certainly curious about how saving his family could be "all the wrong reasons", but the latest strip cleared that up.
I think the prophecy being "By touching the blue orb" would suck for the readers. We have to see it from Rich's point of view here. He already knew what would happen, he had to think about how to phrase the prophecy. Not the other way around, writing the prophecy and THEN coming up with what happens. I think he did it in a brilliant way.

[kusje]

These are my thoughts on the "four words".

1. I think the double use of "I" still makes it 4 words.
2. The words did not help/cause V to gain power. Touching the ball did.
3. Arcane power was not ultimate. (I changed my mind after reading the argument of the poster below me.)

Hence, while these might be the 4 words (very unlikely unless he says these exact four words in the future again), this is not the time when he says it.

[MickJay]

I think we are all forgeting one main factor- is V truley achieving COMPLETE AND TOTAL ULTIMATEarcane power? I believe the answer is no. Complete would imply that it covers all areas of the arcane- INCLUDING wish. Since the power s/he is being granted does not cover this, it should be concluded that the power is NOT complet.

The only problem with this argument is that V does get both Wishes, but limited to the arcane applications of thereof (which actually supports the point the he achieved ultimate arcane power even further). What he can't get with Wishes is divine magic, which has never been his goal and which was not mentioned by either V or the Oracle.

Also, for one, I can fully agree with David Argall on something (the point that "how will I obtain..." may well refer to the circumstances, rather than method of getting UAP).

[Dracorat]

I'm mostly a lurker here, but I do feel compelled to point out - in light of "is it complete and ultimate power" - that the pact demons also state "feelings of pure omnipotence" and "rush of unprecedented arcane power".

That seems sorta "gimme" to me.

[Kish]

I thought that comic would end these threads...

Such hopeless optimism. I have only one question.

Were you not around in the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral, really!" days, or have you blocked them out?

[Cúchulainn]

You do realize that B. Dandelion is arguing that these are not the 4 words right?

She can perish with the rest of them! My rage spares none!

Spoiler

Show

I'm in the "the prophecy happened" side of this debate.

I think it is "absolute arcane power" because nobody has ever had that amount of power, ever. They said it's more than the deal of a lifetime, that tyit's the type of deal that has never happened before. Instead of a single split, V is getting 3. The power is far superior to anything V probably considered ultimate arcane power (which I guess would be epic level magic).

I think it's the right four words because V's hesitation is important. It proves that he needed to say these words to convince himself, and therefore that the words were essential.
I do talk to myself to convince myself. I know a lot of people who do, and I don't find that hard to believe at all. Even less so in a story with dramatic tension.
The right being: himself. Obviously, he can only achieve power by himself, and not because of someone else. I like the implications. He won't get it by asking someone else, but by asking himself.
The right time, obviously, it's time-sensitive here. It's an opportunity he'll never have again. And there is a time stop, so "the right time" probably would be "any time within the time stop".

Also, from a writer's point of view, I don't find the prophecy badly worded. It's supposed to be vague and misleading so we can be surprised. I was certainly curious about how saving his family could be "all the wrong reasons", but the latest strip cleared that up.
I think the prophecy being "By touching the blue orb" would suck for the readers. We have to see it from Rich's point of view here. He already knew what would happen, he had to think about how to phrase the prophecy. Not the other way around, writing the prophecy and THEN coming up with what happens. I think he did it in a brilliant way.

Spoilered for length. I agree, and bolded the most important parts for you. No need to thank me.

[Optimystik]

1) V disintegrating Kubota directly led him to argue with Elan and then fly off on his own, leaving him powerless when the ABD turned up and forced into the deal with the demons.

You can take that kind of reasoning back to ridiculous distances. "He wouldn't have done X if he hadn't said 4 words to Y after doing Z" can stretch all the way back to the beginning of the comic if we let it.

2) OK, so V didn't say the words to Kubota, but he said them at him, which sort of counts.

At best, he said one word to Kubota ("Disintegrate.") The ONLY word he said to Kubota, in fact. Afterward, there was no longer a Kubota to say anything to.

Everyone has to admit,

Going to go with Kish's comment on this one.

I REALLY hope this isn't it.

I get the logic train: four words to self = influence = action of touching = hey presto. It's kind of annoying, though, because it's obviously an indirect fulfillment, and that DIDN'T count for Belkar's prophecy. You could argue Belkar "caused the death of Roy" with the ring of jumping and his subsequent death. You could even have Belkar indirectly kill Roy and later kill the Oracle TOO, since they weren't mutually exclusive outcomes, but that whole extended bit plus the Oracle admitting he hadn't thought so either argues really strongly against the indirect influence. Roy's death could not have qualified. But V talking to herself is really important here?

That Belkar thought his prophecy was a stretch doesn't invalidate it, nor does it make the Oracle's wording any less accurate. If Belkar had wanted it to be more precise, he should have said "kill" instead of the much more vague "cause the death of."