Erfworld 153 - tBfGK - 140

[SteveMB]

EDIT I don't know why I recalled that it was lookamancy - it's actually predictamancy for the second discipline so that shoots this theory to heck. That actually narrows down the elements involved to just Life, so only Hocus Pocus and Clevermancy classes could be involved without adding another element that Wanda or Sizemore might detect.

Wanda gave two different descriptions of the spell: one when she pitched the idea to Stanley ("the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together."), and then a different one when she started chatting with Jillian after the interrogation session ("This monstrous, combination Findamancy/Lookmancy... thing."). The significance of the two descriptions, if any, has yet to be revealed.

[Fjolnir]

Predictamancy was probably used to ensure the spell will summon the warlord for the side's needs, you would need Lookamancy to actually locate the warlord in question and Findamancy probably is the one you would need to actually probe the universe for them (kinda like an internet search, you can find SORTA where it is but then you must go to the website to actually confirm if that's what you need) if that makes any sense at all, it makes both descriptions applicable without either being incorrect.

[greywords]

Wanda gave two different descriptions of the spell: one when she pitched the idea to Stanley ("the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together."), and then a different one when she started chatting with Jillian after the interrogation session ("This monstrous, combination Findamancy/Lookmancy... thing."). The significance of the two descriptions, if any, has yet to be revealed.

Interesting - so I was remembering correctly, just from a different page of the comic. Perhaps the explanation then is that Wanda doesn't actually know the full composition and there actually was meddling...

Still, I think we can call Occam's Razor in this case (which also follows the advice of the very first line in page one of the comic) and state that Janis was just trying to diffuse the situation.

I still hope he really is, though - would be a fantastic twist and open all sorts of new plot directions.

[Glome]

Still, I think we can call Occam's Razor in this case (which also follows the advice of the very first line in page one of the comic) and state that Janis was just trying to diffuse the situation.

I still hope he really is, though - would be a fantastic twist and open all sorts of new plot directions.

Occam's razor assumes all the competing theories are equal in explanatory power. That isn't the case here, where Parson being a hippiemancer would explain not only why Janis said he was a hippiemancer, but also why he was able to use the portal, why his upkeep is so high, and why he is listed as being special.

Diffusing the situation on the other hand only explains why Janis said he was a hippiemancer. And poorly at that considering Parson was already unconscious and thus not an immediate threat, thus the need to lie at that point seems questionable.

[Pointyleaf]

I think this is unlikely. Sizemore and Wanda seemed able to distinguish characteristics of the spell just by holding it ("Ooh. It pulses. With... what kind of magic? Fate?")

That could just be a pun from Sizemore/Wanda ("Yours..mine..ours.") Don't think we can really say without knowing how much "fatemancy" has to do with "fate".

[ishnar]

So, how exactly can creating a warlord/hippymancer end war on erfworld? Especially when the named warlord is sent to a side with only 1 city, less than 200 living man and a army of more than 10.000 units attacking in less than 5 turns? Not to forget that he is bound to the will of a halfwit like Stanley.

I think the more important question is: Is ending war in a wargame a good thing? After all, when the war is over, people stop playing. End of war may well equal end of game. Game over, everyone disbands.

[MadScientistMat]

I don't suggest that there is no such physical currency as a Rand, merely that it might be based on magical labor as most modern currencies were backed by precious metals.

It wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't any physical currency in Erfworld, only a number on a slip of paper or in the computer's memory depending on whether it's a tabletop or computer game. Have we ever seen any examples of physical currency? It may be one of those things like civilians and printing presses that simply don't exist because the game mechanics never involve them.

[MadScientistMat]

I don't remember many references from the 19th century or earlier, but there are references to the 21st century (such as the aforementioned A Mighty Wind, which is a 2003 movie; and of course most Internet pop-culture references. So 20th century or later, not sooner.

We've also seen references to Renaissance era artwork like the Sistine Chapel, and the original Wizard of Oz was a nineteenth century work.

[greywords]

Occam's razor assumes all the competing theories are equal in explanatory power. That isn't the case here, where Parson being a hippiemancer would explain not only why Janis said he was a hippiemancer, but also why he was able to use the portal, why his upkeep is so high, and why he is listed as being special.

Diffusing the situation on the other hand only explains why Janis said he was a hippiemancer. And poorly at that considering Parson was already unconscious and thus not an immediate threat, thus the need to lie at that point seems questionable.

That's a very good point - there are significantly fewer assumptions we have to make in the plot overall if he actually is a hippiemancer. Okay, I'm on board - it's the more likely option at this point. I can't wait to see how this plays out!

That could just be a pun from Sizemore/Wanda ("Yours..mine..ours.") Don't think we can really say without knowing how much "fatemancy" has to do with "fate".

True, but since one of the component parts of the spell is likely from the fate axis, there's likely some ability of [experienced] casters to tease apart the general components of a spell. At least, I'm more inclined to believe that than not given current discussions about magic in the comic.

[SteveMB]

It wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't any physical currency in Erfworld, only a number on a slip of paper or in the computer's memory depending on whether it's a tabletop or computer game. Have we ever seen any examples of physical currency? It may be one of those things like civilians and printing presses that simply don't exist because the game mechanics never involve them.

The satchel from the scene where we first meet Sizemore studying Flower Power seems to be a money pouch, given the context where it appears.

[fendrin]

Occam's razor assumes all the competing theories are equal in explanatory power. That isn't the case here, where Parson being a hippiemancer would explain not only why Janis said he was a hippiemancer, but also why he was able to use the portal, why his upkeep is so high, and why he is listed as being special.

Diffusing the situation on the other hand only explains why Janis said he was a hippiemancer. And poorly at that considering Parson was already unconscious and thus not an immediate threat, thus the need to lie at that point seems questionable.

That's a very good point - there are significantly fewer assumptions we have to make in the plot overall if he actually is a hippiemancer. Okay, I'm on board - it's the more likely option at this point. I can't wait to see how this plays out!

I disagree...

1. Parson not being able to use the portal was a conjecture at best.
2. We needed no explanation (beyond what we already knew) for why his upkeep was so high.
3. Knocking out Parson keeps parson from attacking the 'casters, but does nothing to keep the 'casters from attacking Parson. Thus Janis lying accomplishes a goal significantly in line with her character.

Postulating that Parson has some hitherto unseen casting ability is a huge speculation, compared to Janis lying being a small speculation.

Could Parson secretly actually be a hippiemancer? Sure, but I highly doubt it is the case.

The satchel from the scene where we first meet Sizemore studying Flower Power seems to be a money pouch, given the context where it appears.

Sizemore is carrying the satchel in the last panel, he didn't leave the whole thing with Janis. Thus we can only speculate what it contains. It might have simply been a spare change of clothes.

[Bawon von Howse]

well I don't really think that Parson can be a hippymancer. However taking inference from what he says when coming through the portal it would make sense that there had been some off screen discusison whereby the mechanics of the portal were discussed with him.

So presented with no option he went through...

...it is possible however that high level magic users can detect sorts of magic and for some reason that will be explained to us soon, Parson exhibits the display of being a hippie!

[glissle]

The satchel from the scene where we first meet Sizemore studying Flower Power seems to be a money pouch, given the context where it appears.

I can't see Sizemore handing Janis physical money and having the exchange "I can't - It's done.", because someone handed physical money can resist accepting it. The exchange suggests to me that Sizemore made a definitive transfer of Rands via natural magic. (She could probably send Rands back to Sizemore, but that would be a separate transaction that would not negate the fact of the payment.)

[Bawon von Howse]

I can't see Sizemore handing Janis physical money and having the exchange "I can't - It's done.", because someone handed physical money can resist accepting it. The exchange suggests to me that Sizemore made a definitive transfer of Rands via natural magic. (She could probably send Rands back to Sizemore, but that would be a separate transaction that would not negate the fact of the payment.)

i just kind of assumed that the bag contained the rands....sizemore had given over the rands and she was saying no, i can't take them...as he didn't learn anything!

[Oslecamo]

Postulating that Parson has some hitherto unseen casting ability is a huge speculation, compared to Janis lying being a small speculation.

Could Parson secretly actually be a hippiemancer? Sure, but I highly doubt it is the case.

Agreed. Probably only mancers are allowed in the magic realm, so Hamster should be executed on sight since he isn't a mancer. Janis is a hippiemancer and thus suports nonviolence, so she lies to protect Hamster's life.

By declaring Hamster's an hippiemancer, she's basicaly meaning:
"This guy's under my protection now, and if any of you try to mess up with him you'll answer to ME."

[Bawon von Howse]

Agreed. Probably only mancers are allowed in the magic realm, so Hamster should be executed on sight since he isn't a mancer. Janis is a hippiemancer and thus suports nonviolence, so she lies to protect Hamster's life.

By declaring Hamster's an hippiemancer, she's basicaly meaning:
"This guy's under my protection now, and if any of you try to mess up with him you'll answer to ME."

yes & no...I can agree with what you are saying what Janice says, however, Parson says he doesn't know why he didn't disband not croak...which would imply that he was assuming he would disband by going through the portal...

...so maybe only mancers are allowed in the magic realm...and anything that isn't a mancer will disband...however Parson didn't disband (because he can't be disbanded? / not of erf) so he must be a mancer...Janice is just spreading her flower power and difusing a potentially hostile situation...

...or Parson really is a Hippymancer!

[HandofShadows]

...or Parson really is a Hippymancer!

Compared to the average Erf Warlord Parson probably IS a Hippymancer. If he could, Parson would rather win without fighting. sm

[SteveMB]

Parson not being able to use the portal was a conjecture at best.

It's clear that Parson believed that to be the case, to the point where he assumed that he'd have to stay behind and fight a hopeless battle after sending the casters through. That doesn't mean that it is the case (and we have now seen that it isn't, at least in the sense that it wasn't physically impossible for Parson to traverse the portal alive).

[fendrin]

Some thoughts:

It is clearly daytime, which means that either it is truly daytime or it is always sunny at the Magic Kingdom. The former makes sense seeing the last two pages showed us evening/night. The latter is possible and could even be part of the joke of the place considering that Disney's Magic Kingdom is in Orlando Florida, which is known for it's sunny weather. I consider the former to be the case.

That means that some time has passed since Parson first entered the portal. Therefore either the portal was not instantaneous for Parson or a significant amount of time (hours) have passed since he emerged in portal park. If the portal was not instantaneous, there would have to be a reason that it was different for Parson than for Sizemore and Wanda at the beginning of the story.

If the portal was instantaneous, then Parson has spent hours in portal park, possibly alone (well, with Sizemore/Maggie/Wanda) but unable to leave (It's not his turn or his territory, so he cannot cross hex or zone boundaries, unless those rules don't apply to him, of which we have little to no evidence). Considering that portal park is essentially an airport (a point of arrival and departure) and not a travel destination itself, it is unlikely that people typically spend the night there. So Parson and the linked trio being discovered hours after their arrival makes sense. On the other hand, the portal behind Parson is still glowing in panel 2, but is not in panel 7.

In either case, if we assume it is truly day time, then either Parson's upkeep was paid or non-payment of upkeep does not (immediately) lead to disbandment. We have little to no evidence of the latter, and some for the former (e.g. Stanley's threat before he left GK) Parson's opening statements on the current page could then reasonably be attributable to his surprise that Stanley is still paying his (and Sizemore and Wanda's) upkeep.

Whether or not Parson is a 'mancer of any sort, the reason the portal let him through could be because it couldn't tell whether or not he was a caster. In some ways spellcasting is like computer programming. You define a set of parameters to trigger a particular event. If there are only two types of objects, {a,b}, you can define your trigger as "if object is type a" or "if object is not type b" and get the same results. However, if there is an unknown object of type c, the former will not trigger the function, but the latter will.

We know that Parson was not disbanded by the portal. Four possibilities:

1. The disbandment function of the portal doesn't exist or malfunctioned.
2. Parson is a caster.
3. Parson is not a caster, but the portal didn't recognize him as a non-caster and thus the disbandment function was not triggered.
4. Parson is immune to disbanding.

EDIT:

Compared to the average Erf Warlord Parson probably IS a Hippymancer. If he could, Parson would rather win without fighting. sm

I'm not sure if you are being litteral or not, but if you are:
Parson may share the attitude of the hippymancers, but that doesn't mean he is one. If attitude determined caster type and ability, Sizemore would be a hippymancer, but clearly is not, nor does he even have any aptitude for it (as his lack of progress in training with Janis indicates).

It's clear that Parson believed that to be the case, to the point where he assumed that he'd have to stay behind and fight a hopeless battle after sending the casters through. That doesn't mean that it is the case (and we have now seen that it isn't, at least in the sense that it wasn't physically impossible for Parson to traverse the portal alive).

Much earlier on, Parson had already rejected the notion of surrender or fleeing. He wasn't sure if it was his 'gamer 4 life, yo' attitude or Loyalty compelling him. It wasn't until staying guaranteed croaking that he chose to enter the portal. At that point his attitude would not compel him to stay and Loyalty would compel him leave. The point I am trying to make is that he would have stayed that long whether or not he believed the portal would disband him.

[Pointyleaf]

Fendrin: Or this could just be going back slightly in time, to just after Parson goes through the portal (still RCC's turn, still during daytime).

[Kreistor]

Although I agree that Parson being a Hippiemancer actually is indicated by Occam's Razor, I think the most compelling reason for Parson to be a Hippiemancer is that it errs on the side of humour. How ironic it is that the "Perfect Warlord" can cast spells of peace, love, and drug-induced tripping. In comics, one must always remember that humour trumps common sense.

[Oslecamo]

That means that some time has passed since Parson first entered the portal. Therefore either the portal was not instantaneous for Parson or a significant amount of time (hours) have passed since he emerged in portal park. If the portal was not instantaneous, there would have to be a reason that it was different for Parson than for Sizemore and Wanda at the beginning of the story.

3rd option: Hamster is in another country/dimension wich has a diferent weahter system than Gobwin Knob, so it's day there while it was night back in the city.

[Kreistor]

We know that Parson was not disbanded by the portal. Four possibilities:

1. The disbandment function of the portal doesn't exist or malfunctioned.
2. Parson is a caster.
3. Parson is not a caster, but the portal didn't recognize him as a non-caster and thus the disbandment function was not triggered.
4. Parson is immune to disbanding.

You are assuming that the Portal would disband Parson. There is another possibility.

With powerful Lookamancers in the Magic Kingdom, they could be fully aware of the destruction of GK. Knowing that upkeep was being paid for Parson from the GK treasury, then upkeep should not be paid for Parson this turn. That means he should be disbanded just from failure to upkeep, and not from the portal. Clearly, the portal does not disband (don't anyone try to tell me you know what "disband" means... it might just mean getting fired) casters upon entry (Wanda knows Turn has started and without a side, she would be a barbaroan with her own turn).

So, all we might be looking at here is Stanley choosing to pay Parson's upkeep, keeping him on Side.

(BTW, I suspect Stanley has moved Capital to Faq... but Faq was never actually destroyed in the first place, so it is capable of providing the funds to maintain all four of them. Stanley wasn't fleeing to a dead city as Jillian expected: he was fleeing to a thriving city long intended as a back-up plan in case GK failed. That is, and I admit, pure speculation, but I remind you that all we know of Faq came from Jillian, and her intelligence on that matter was woefully incomplete. I am arguing this issue elsewhere. This may be resolved very soon. Unlinked Wanda would know if the portal from MK to Faq remained active, and could take them all through.)

[chefsotero]

Much earlier on, Parson had already rejected the notion of surrender or fleeing. He wasn't sure if it was his 'gamer 4 life, yo' attitude or Loyalty compelling him. It wasn't until staying guaranteed croaking that he chose to enter the portal. At that point his attitude would not compel him to stay and Loyalty would compel him leave. The point I am trying to make is that he would have stayed that long whether or not he believed the portal would disband him.

Everything points that Parson belived that he would be unable to use the portal, either coz he would be croacked/disbanded or Simply slaming into a wall. This would make the choice quite easy for him, he even consider surrender, but realize its would be a foolish attempt.

I belive he would do (and actually did) everithing in his power to avoid the coalition winning, but would not go on a suicide path. And as regarded before an 99% chance of dying is way better then an 100% one

[Welf]

In addition to what Pointleaf and Oslecamo said, two more options:
The Transylvitos are in high mountain terrain; the sun could be simply blocked by the mountains. In late evening this can make a big difference.
Erfworld isn't flat, and Parson just was transported a lot of degrees west. If he was transferred from the erfworld-coiunterpart of scotland (the natural habit of plaids) to California (the natural habit of magic kingdoms) he jumped over 8 hours of time difference. But only two or 3 hours would do the same trick.

[chefsotero]

(don't anyone try to tell me you know what "disband" means... it might just mean getting fired)

Well I cannot say what disband actually means in Erfworld Mechanics, but from this page I take that sizemore was more scarred of beeing disbanded than beeing croaked. Which IMHO shows that it got to be considerably worst then a call from the HR lady

(BTW, I suspect Stanley has moved Capital to Faq... but Faq was never actually destroyed in the first place, so it is capable of providing the funds to maintain all four of them. Stanley wasn't fleeing to a dead city as Jillian expected: he was fleeing to a thriving city long intended as a back-up plan in case GK failed. That is, and I admit, pure speculation, but I remind you that all we know of Faq came from Jillian, and her intelligence on that matter was woefully incomplete. I am arguing this issue elsewhere. This may be resolved very soon. Unlinked Wanda would know if the portal from MK to Faq remained active, and could take them all through.)

I find this unlikely given that Wanda states that GK has only the capital And if she knew about an extra city she would have told Parson during the strateggy-boot-camp-o-hamma .

EDIT: Also this conversation give me reason to believe that disbanding = ceasing to exist, given that wanda says that: "The spell which summoned you will end your existence entirelly" and in the last panel the Tool states that: "I already have enouth reasons to disband you". Again no hard proof. But it does seem to me as the most likely hypotesis.

[greywords]

Although I agree that Parson being a Hippiemancer actually is indicated by Occam's Razor, I think the most compelling reason for Parson to be a Hippiemancer is that it errs on the side of humour. How ironic it is that the "Perfect Warlord" can cast spells of peace, love, and drug-induced tripping. In comics, one must always remember that humour trumps common sense.

Excellent point - perhaps we're overanalyzing this to death.

On a somewhat related topic, does anyone want to speculate on the origin of the magic items/artifacts that Parson's wielding? Did they just pop on their own as part of his rations, or were they created by casters (e.g. possibly even the same casters in the Magic Kingdom that created the spell that summoned him in the first place)? It's possible that one or more of them is the reason that he's able to pass through the portal (a perfect warlord could theoretically attack any where, any time) or is considered a Hippiemancer (though I think this is less likely).

[Kreistor]

Well I cannot say what disband actually means in Erfworld Mechanics, but from this page I take that sizemore was more scarred of beeing disbanded than beeing croaked. Which IMHO shows that it got to be considerably worst then a call from the HR lady

I don't see anything more from Sizemore than normal concern there: there's no look of horror or panic, and he remains calm and rational. I don't see the fear you do, and in fact, I see someone that is merely concerned for another unit in his Side that is considering disObedience. Beside that, given that Obedience effects would force Sizemore to comply with Stanley's order (and insufficient knowledge of strategy/tactics to doubt Stanley), you can't read anything into his actions there. Parson, on the other hand, has a concern that Stanley's best interest is to attack Ansom that next day because he does understand strategy/tactics, so his contemplation of disobeying orders is more reasonable. (Though in his case he's probably just forgetting that there are more dire consequences than disbanding for him, thanks to the spell (frame 7). We do see Parson contemplate disobedience and disloyalty, but he never actually takes actions that might be interpreted as such.)

I find this unlikely given that Wanda states that GK has only the capital And if she knew about an extra city she would have told Parson during the strateggy-boot-camp-o-hamma .

Unless she was under orders not to reveal what she knew of Faq to anyone (which would also explain why she did not tell Jillian anything about what happened). Those orders I think she would not be disobedient over. 1) These are her people and revealing them threatens those she cares about. Whiel secret, they continue to be a peaceful bubble kingdom. 2) As a back-up plan, it is spoiled if revealed, and that would definitely not be in the interest of her Ruler. With Parson dealing with Charlie, there is the potential for undesired information transfer: Parson is a security risk.

Note that Wanda has no problem not telling Parson about the scrolls she has saved. Speculating that she might tell him abot such a back-up plan can't help Parson, especially when she knows Parson can't retreat through mountains that require flight or tunneling. Stanley has made it clear they are to remain in GK, so Faq's existence is quite unhelpful.

[chefsotero]

I don't see anything more from Sizemore than normal concern there

Indeed I cannot say that ur reasonning is incorect, I'm just using Sotero's Razor here "In deciding amongst 2 hypotesis that have equivalent explanatory powers and Complexity degrees, pick the one that sounds cooler"

Unless she was under orders not to reveal what she knew of Faq to anyone (which would also explain why she did not tell Jillian anything about what happened)

But that would not explain why did she told the Tool that GK was reduced to the capitall, only if the tool knew but wanda did not. Which is indeed a possibility, but then Maggie would know about it (from her last link dutie). I not saying that Faq is or is not a ruin, I just saying that Wanda belives it to be a ruin (or at least not an GK city).

[blackbird71]

3rd option: Hamster is in another country/dimension wich has a diferent weahter system than Gobwin Knob, so it's day there while it was night back in the city.

Fourth option:

At the time of the eruption, it was still daylight hours and there was no natural darkness. Rather, as is wont to happen with volcanic eruptions, the resulting smoke and ash obscurred the sun. The last we see of the exterior at GK immediately before the eruption(page 136, panel 7) seems to show a decent amount of ambient light, with shadows of falling rocks. This is consistent with page 137, where there is heavy smoke visible in the sky.

In the first panel of 138, it seems that the sun is just barely setting. The statement "Bunny's been very busy" seems to indicate that they have been spending some time trying to sort out what happened, and to make sense of their intelligence. So it would be reasonable to conclude that the scene on pp. 138-139 occurred some time after the volcanic eruption.

And so it would make sense that the scene on page 140, where Parson et al have arrived in the Magic Kingdom, occurs immediately after he stepped through the portal on page 136, some time before the events of pp. 138-139, still during daylight hours, and that the location of MK is distant enough not to be immediately affected by the aftermath of the volcano.