Erfworld 156 - tBfGK 143

[shamelessmerc]

As interesting as the "it wished for you" line is, I am more concerned about the exchange in panel two:

Parson: This is apocalypse!
Wanda: Hardly the first.

Is she being figurative, or literal? Perhaps this is a hint as to what happened in FAQ (some kind of total annihilation when it was taken over), or is it a reference to something else?

Or just beeing massivly cynical?

It's the same thing I would say in the same situation (I resort to sarcasm and cynicism in moments of stress. I'm told I'm very eloquent and hurtful)

[shamelessmerc]

Did Wanda have a hand in the fall of Faq? At this point, I'd be surprised if she didn't. Listen carefully to what she said.

"Oh, for these I have wrecked and ruined more than you have."

Now, how many people could she have "wrecked" and "ruined" under Stanley's service? From her tone, it sounds like she did more than kill a huge amount of people. It would not be a stretch to imagine that the people of Faq were a sizable portion of those whom she has "wrecked" and "ruined".

Edit: Ansom looks so peaceful.

Unless she manipulated the situation so that Stan lost all his cities, bringing GK to it's knees all so she could arrange for Parson's summoning....

[Gez]

Haven't you learned by now that Parson has no real weaknesses? He is a Mary Sue, which does not make the story a poor one. But there can be no denying that Parson fits the Mary Sue trope very, very well.

Not really. He has weaknesses, including apathy and unhealthy habits. It's just that he's placed in a situation where his weaknesses do not matter much and his strengths on the other hand get to play in full. Even then, he needs help.

If you want a Mary Sue in that comic, I give you Wanda. She's an immoral monster, but everyone loves her, even those who have a mindset completely opposite hers (Sizemore for instance). She's smart and sexy, naturally gifted at every type of magic, even those she doesn't care about. She is also a keen social manipulator. And finally, she has a troubled and mysterious past. And a lesbian lover. Can hardly heap more sueness on that without ruining the character.

The reasons stairs didn't bother Parson that much this time? First, there's a lot less of them now. Secondly, a repeat of the joke on Parson's state of unfitness would be more distracting that constructive at this point of the plot. Finally, he had been wearing armor all day long for the last few days now, and as everyone who ever played Morrowind or Oblivion knows, this increases your Endurance rating.

[joosy]

We also know Wanda is under no loyalty spells to Stanley.

To me this means that Wanda is not a CAPTURED unit - standard natural Duty/Loyalty restrictions still apply.

[A. Hamster]

Regarding the popping of Heirs and Casters, there is a mechanic in Civilization IV that would give similar results, basically limited but not full control over what pops.

In Civ IV, the designers introduced Great People, who represent the historical figures that have a major influence on a culture or civilization. (e.g. Leonardo da Vinci is a Great Engineer, William Shakespeare a Great Artist.)

To get a given Great Person, you have to build Wonders (like the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens of Babylon) or appropriate buildings that will let you then turn an ordinary Citizen in a city into a Specialist. (Building a Temple lets you turn one Citizen into a Priest, a Library permits you to have two Scientists.) These generate Great People points (GPP), and when you accumulate enough GPP in a given city, a Great Person is born.

Now, in Civ IV, one can pretty much control what type of Great Person pops if you specialize the city (if you only run Scientist specialists and build Science Wonders, that's a 100% chance of getting a Great Scientist when the conditions are fulfilled). However, there are certain buildings/wonders that will speed the collection Great Person points that one usually wants in your Great People city, and they usually give Great Artist points, so one might end up having a 96% chance of getting a Great Scientist, but a 4% of getting a Great Artist.

As this applies to Erfworld, Jillian says that instead of Banhammer getting his Philosopher-Prince, he got her (Jillian). That implies partial but not complete control over what pops. Presumably Banhammer would have been running as many appropriate Specialists as poosible to get the type of Heir he wanted, but game requirements might have required he use a few specialists or buildings that were not what he wanted. (Since a Heir is also a military leader, perhaps a Barracks is required to build Heirs, and that gives Fighter points, not Philosopher points.) So Banhammer had something like a 98% Philosopher 2% Berserker chance for his Heir, and the game engine rolled "99", and so Jillian popped.

This can be applied to casters as well. In Civ IV, certain buildings and Specialists are gained earlier than others (mostly the religious buildings/wonders). That means your first Great Person is usually a Great Prophet. If Thinkamancy buildings are part of the first few builds permitted to a new city, then there may be a naturally occuring bias towards Thinkamancers, since all cities have to have basic buildings A, B, and C just to function. It is only later that an Erfworld city is allowed to specialize and then try running different specialists to get Dirtamancers, Croakmancers, etcetera, and you'd still have the underlying Thinkamancer points base to throw a random factor into what pops.

[Hatman]

i liked Wanda before she got fingers...

[Gez]

i liked Wanda before she got fingers...

So you never liked her, right?

[Welf]

If you want a Mary Sue in that comic, I give you Wanda. She's an immoral monster, but everyone loves her, even those who have a mindset completely opposite hers (Sizemore for instance). She's smart and sexy, naturally gifted at every type of magic, even those she doesn't care about. She is also a keen social manipulator. And finally, she has a troubled and mysterious past. And a lesbian lover. Can hardly heap more sueness on that without ruining the character.

Everybody loves Wanda? Nobody loves Wanda, execpt Jillian*. And Jillian loved Ansom more than her.
Sizemore respects her, and fears her. A lot. It's pretty clear who's master and who's underling. She only allows him to act sometimes as if he was an equal because he was for a long time the only intelligent person around and because he's a skilled caster.
Parson also respects her, with a little fear. But he don't love or even like her.
Stanley likes and desires for her, but he doesn't love her.
If you think about it, it's pretty sad.

*okay, the fas and creators love her, but that's not relevant for Sueness. "Mary Sue", my donkey.

[Doug Lampert]

From a printer's perspective, 144 pages is a good number for binding. And since we're on 143 in the strip, either this comic or the next would be an ideal place for the chapter to end.

Copyright notice. Forward, Preface, Afterward, publication notes and something about the next book and where their website is, bonus strips.

If they stop here and go for an even multiple of 16 interior pages it will be a 160 page book.

[Matuse]

Haven't you learned by now that Parson has no real weaknesses? He is a Mary Sue, which does not make the story a poor one. But there can be no denying that Parson fits the Mary Sue trope very, very well.

I can deny it. Parson isn't the least bit Mary Sue. He doesn't fit ANY of the qualifications.

[fendrin]

I'm also thinking that maybe casters aren't popped at all--that they have to be supplied by the Magic Kingdom. That might explain why there's a relative shortage of one type of caster over another.

Except that Sizemore is the same Tribe as Stanley and more significantly says that he was popped under Saline IV.

Not 'bought', 'hired', or 'captured'.

[ishnar]

"natural thinkamancy" (Loyalty, Duty, Obedience) is NOT a spell, no matter how many times people say that "Wanda is under no loyalty spells to Stanley", the fact remains that ALL units are bound with natural thinkamancy to some degree, a good example of this is parson just before the trimancer link is sparked off CAN'T send Wanda, Maggie, and Sizemore away until he tries this maneuver. Since her Loyalty isn't very low, we must assume that she CAN'T easily betray Stanley unless she can somehow justify it to herself (similar to Jillian at the Dwagons, only not verbally.)

Erm, I think it's a but much to say that Parson could not do something just because Wanda rationalized it that way. A lot of assumptions are being made about the compulsion being mental, but everything so far indicates that duty is a PHYSICAL compulsion.

Stanley ordered that Parson laugh at his jokes. The result was not that Parson suddenly found the jokes funny (mental) but that his body convulsed in laughter even when he found the jokes not funny (physical)

Parson didn't order them through due to his own reasons, duty had nothing to do with it. If Parson had tried to order them through, but kept biting his tongue, then we could conclude that duty was forcing Parson's hand.

Wanda assumes Parson wouldn't order them through due to duty because Wanda was projecting.

[DevilDan]

Erm, I think it's a but much to say that Parson could not do something just because Wanda rationalized it that way. A lot of assumptions are being made about the compulsion being mental, but everything so far indicates that duty is a PHYSICAL compulsion.

Stanley ordered that Parson laugh at his jokes. The result was not that Parson suddenly found the jokes funny (mental) but that his body convulsed in laughter even when he found the jokes not funny (physical)

Wasn't he literally ordered to laugh rather than being ordered to find Stanley's jokes funny? The order to not speak didn't prevent him from wanting to speak.

[Kilkrazy]

The way I read it, Parson made himself laugh at Stanley's jokes because he had been ordered to, as a kind of mockery.

[Mysteryman64]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that uncroaked can be mass raised, but they're weaker because of it. Maybe the pliers would allows mass raising, but without the weaker uncroaked that would normally be the side effect.

3000+ full strength uncroaked would seem to me a pretty good power.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I suspect that the Erf universe is even more centered around war and the gaming of war than what was previously thought. There may not even be death beyond that which occurs in war. What if your only death was to fall in battle, with rare Plot-point exceptions? Perhaps these wars have been ongoing with no peace for ages, or even looping much like a Matrix world, with minor variations on each iteration? Has anyone any evidence that there is death outside violence in this universe?

I poked around a bit but could not find the strip were my (oft faulty) memory tells me there was some discussion of death by old age. I think that units simply decay after they have been around for a great length of time, similar to people dying of old age in our world.

[Gez]

The only instance of "decay" I remember in the comic is the TV units' song when they're preparing for their dance fight with Stanley, and it might simply have been used for the rhyme.

So...

[Architect]

Wanda is a gifted caster, but she is not a tactical genius. If she was intending to supplant Stanley and/or start her own side, she would need a Chief Warlord. As with all evil overlords, a competent and ambitious lieutenant is a betrayal waiting to happen. Parson is a tactical genius, The Perfect Warlord (tm), but he isn't ambitious. As with his original life, he didn't care enough about anything to change it. Therefore, he is the perfect warlord for her.

[Oslecamo]

The only instance of "decay" I remember in the comic is the TV units' song when they're preparing for their dance fight with Stanley, and it might simply have been used for the rhyme.

So...

Go look again. I don't remember the exact strips but:

1-When Stanley is showing the troops to Hamster and they arrive at the uncroacked warlords.

2-When Wanda mass-zombifies, and Hamster explains that by doing that the units will last just a few turns.

[Kreistor]

Os, the discussion is about the natural death of living units. The uncroaked information is irrelevant.

[Oglokoog]

Long time reader, first time poster.

Well, I'd like my first post to be somewhat more wordy, but this'll have to do: Erfworld is getting better with each page!

[Oslecamo]

Os, the discussion is about the natural death of living units. The uncroaked information is irrelevant.

Vampires are an advanced form of uncroacked, with free will and stuff. They decay, and if living units don't die of old age then it kinda sucks being a vampire in Efworld, yet there's a whole nation of them. So there's probably an "age limit" to living units for balance purposes. King Saline looked pretty old, being a long time ruler.

Jillian on the other hand is a relatively recent unit, and thus looks all young and energetic. Ansom being still a heir is also still a pretty boy.

I believe living units age as uncroacked decay. But they normally end up killed by something before their time is up.

[ishnar]

Vampires are an advanced form of uncroacked, with free will and stuff. They decay, and if living units don't die of old age then it kinda sucks being a vampire in Efworld, yet there's a whole nation of them. So there's probably an "age limit" to living units for balance purposes. King Saline looked pretty old, being a long time ruler.

Unfortunately, your Vampire assumptions are suspect. There are many different lores concerning vampires. Vampirism is a disease, Vamprisim is a form of undeath, vampirism is a genetic disposition, vampirism is an arcane power, vampirism is just a cosmetic defect.

Then what Vampirism involves is different between lores. Vampires feed on blood. Vampires feed on life energy. Vampires eat normal food. Etc, etc..

While in some games leader units age (Total War) regular units do not. So your governor ages, gets assassinated, or gets sick and dies. But regular units only die in battle or are disbanded.

There being an entire nation of Vampires most likely indicates that Vampirism is a genetic disposition.

[galdon]

hm, with GK nearly out of units, and no leadership units left, Parson's friends might instead of being rivals like i remember a lot of people theorizing when it was first said they would be showing up in erfworld, Parson might find he needs help and have his friends summoned, i would assume it'd be easier to find four individuals in one world than it is to find one 'perfect' person in all worlds

[ishnar]

hm, with GK nearly out of units, and no leadership units left, Parson's friends might instead of being rivals like i remember a lot of people theorizing when it was first said they would be showing up in erfworld, Parson might find he needs help and have his friends summoned, i would assume it'd be easier to find four individuals in one world than it is to find one 'perfect' person in all worlds

Yes. A "friend" that finds himself trapped in a nearly hopeless situation in another universe that he probably will never return from summons me to join the fun.

That would be the end of my friendship.

[Hatu]

Everybody loves Wanda? Nobody loves Wanda, execpt Jillian*. And Jillian loved Ansom more than her.
Sizemore respects her, and fears her. A lot. It's pretty clear who's master and who's underling. She only allows him to act sometimes as if he was an equal because he was for a long time the only intelligent person around and because he's a skilled caster.
Parson also respects her, with a little fear. But he don't love or even like her.
Stanley likes and desires for her, but he doesn't love her.
If you think about it, it's pretty sad.

Well, of the characters on GK's side, Stanley and Sizemore have both expressed affection in their own way for Wanda. Bogroll certainly liked her before he croaked. Parson hadn't had much time with her, but he certainly hasn't expressed any negative feelings about her. I think a charge of Mary Sueness is a bit extreme, but not far from the mark.

The real question is whether we in the audience are supposed to love her or loathe her. I loathe her, but I'm not sure if that's the intended reaction. It's certainly been the minority opinion thus far.

This was a busy strip, and very well done. But I'm not looking forward to watching poor Ansom as Wanda's zombie toy. Ansom was always poorly treated in this strip, and now even his ignominious end gets worse. :-(

Though this strip continues my questions on how the hell turn sequences work in Erfworld. Apparently you can travel both to and from the Magic Kingdom on someone else's turn, since Ansom's body hasn't been garbage collected yet. I'm so confused.

-H

[SteveMB]

Well, of the characters on GK's side, Stanley and Sizemore have both expressed affection in their own way for Wanda. Bogroll certainly liked her before he croaked. Parson hadn't had much time with her, but he certainly hasn't expressed any negative feelings about her. I think a charge of Mary Sueness is a bit extreme, but not far from the mark.

I think it's quite far from the mark, considering how one of her errors in judgment ("She will not break this spell. She cannot.") totally blew up in her face. That sort of thing simply does not happen to a "Mary Sue" character, ever.

The real question is whether we in the audience are supposed to love her or loathe her. I loathe her, but I'm not sure if that's the intended reaction. It's certainly been the minority opinion thus far.

Well, the authors have repeatedly described her as "scary".

[Suicide Junkie]

Vampires are an advanced form of uncroacked, with free will and stuff.

Why do you think that? They sure act like just another bunch of normal units, (such as elves or humans). No reason to make up wacky mechanics stuff.

Also, note that Ansom [strike]doesn't[/strike] didn't despise them as abominations.

[Gez]

Vampires are an advanced form of uncroacked

This has yet been to be confirmed for the Erfworld setting. Heck, the Transylvitans have not even be named vampires. Earlier exposition on uncroaked said they were mindless and without free will, two things that don't really apply to the likes of Vinny. Further, Ansom calls uncroaked abominations and carried an artifact that destroyed them instantly, but had Vinny has his most trusted friend. And finally, exposition on sides said that only humans had nations with overlords and cities, creatures such as elfs and gobwins don't.

All those elements lead me to believe that vampires are a tribe of vampire-like humans, not uncroaked.

I think it's quite far from the mark, considering how one of her errors in judgment ("She will not break this spell. She cannot.") totally blew up in her face. That sort of thing simply does not happen to a "Mary Sue" character, ever.

It does, sometime, if the storytelling makes it look like it's not really the Mary Sue's fault and if the blowback seems disproportionate so as to incite sympathy and compassion rather than lingering on how it's justified or deserved.

That said I should clarify. When I said that Wanda was as Mary Sue as one could go without ruining the character, that meant she wasn't really a Mary Sue, just that I feel that from the cast, she's the one the closest to being one. If she was truly one, then it would have ruined the character, wouldn't it?

[Kreistor]

Oh, guys, it's a lot easier than that...

Prove that Vampires from Transylvito are uncroaked by a Croakamancer, Oslecamo.