Jetstone destroyed Faq

[Bogardan_Mage]

1. Yes, though Jillian has already been proven to be hotheaded, and therefore very likely to jump to conclusions. She's not exactly a reliable source of information. Therefore, while I will freely agree that Stanley was probably there when she received that communication, that doesn't mean Stanley destroyed Faq--at least partially because that's far too obvious a jump, so its much more likely that there's some twist involved here.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes even if it isn't we don't have enough information to say what it is so it's best to just go along with it being a cigar, in lieu of a better explanation.

2. Again, no one said Stanley wasn't there--just that he didn't destroy Faq. Likewise, just because Ansom acts like he doesn't know where it is doesn't mean Jetstone didn't destroy Faq--it just means that Ansom probably didn't.

Ansom was Jetstone's chief warlord. I think it's safe to say that if he didn't know about it, Jetstone's military interests weren't involved. To say that they might have been is just stretching the evidence to accomodate this theory, something you've been accusing those opposite you of doing is it not?

3. And again, we're back to the loyalty issue. The problem you're running into is that they haven't really provided a good explanation for why the two casters are still loyal to Stanley. People don't just decide not to blame the guy who took over their kingdom and killed their leader just because "he was only doing his job"--at least not to the point where they become very loyal to him. And there's no evidence that Maggie used a loyalty spell on Jack.

Indeed, there's evidence against it. But you dodge the real issue which is why are they with Stanley at all. Apparently explaining things that kind of but don't quite fit is a duty for those who disagree with you, not for you. They shatter theories you don't agree with but preserve your own.

Now, DarkCloud has a good point; Wanda might have been willing to betray Faq out of revenge for the loss of her tribe. However, if instead, she just betrayed Faq for her own political gains, there's no reason for her to be loyal enough to Stanley to repeatedly risk her own life in his defense, when there were several situations where she could have betrayed Stanley and thereby easily gotten out of this mess alive. People willing to betray their friends (such as Jillian) in exchange for political gain are unlikely to stay loyal to a particular leader at the extreme risk of her own life.

As we've just discovered, she had heard from a Predictamancer. Depending on the exact nature of the Prediction, she could have known what was going to happen if she stayed with Stanley.

You can say my solutions are "too complicated" all you want, but they still make more sense than the relatively weak "its not his fault" arguments that everyone else seems to be throwing out.

No, they really don't. What makes sense is we don't know all the details of Faq's fall. That does not mean that what we do know is completely false. Far from it. I don't know why the casters are loyal to Stanley. I see no reason to assume the reason is that Stanley isn't responsible for the destruction of Faq.

I'm certainly not saying that Stanley is a completely innocent third party. Stanley must have been there at the fall of Faq. However, that doesn't mean that Stanley is responsible for Faq's destruction.

Maybe not, but it certainly doesn't mean he wasn't responsible. With the evidence we have now (no other parties present) that is the only conclusion we can draw.

[zz_tophat]

LurkerInPlayground you're using a well thought out almost scientific model to predict and analyze the events in this comic. That's great and i applaud your well thought out responses. I'm sure using that method you'd be able to predict the end of a murder mystery with remarkable accuracy.

But there is one very serious problem with that type of think in regards to this story.

Magic.

When I say magic I am generalizing anything that cannot, should not, or simply will not be explained. The writers of this comic can and will, without good reason, make things happen. In the context of the story, anything happening is neither outlandish or unreasonable. This is because despite any evidence to the contrary, for all we know: a giant Elvis destroyed Faq.

Deus ex machina has already been used, in no less than the first comic! Did anyone cry fowl or scream "hacks!" at the writers? No, because giant Elvis rocks and key lime pie is tasty.

Frankly speaking when it comes to a story world like this not only is anything possible, it is to be expected. Literary rules need not apply. Especially if it is funny.

"Dance fighting for boops sake!"
-Lord Hamster The Battle for Gobwin Knob

[Arin]

Okay, I don't really have anything concrete to offer this debate in the way of a theory. What I do have, being somewhat more "impartial"(?) than some of you guys seem to be on this, is a clearheaded list of what needs to be addressed in order to see someone other than Stanley as the culprit.

Assuming Stanley's side is not responsible for the destruction of FAQ:

1) How did Stanley's side obtain Wanda and Jack?

This is the biggest issue, since we do know 100% for sure that these were FAQ casters. We're told here in a completely unambiguous way that Wanda belonged to FAQ, and here about Jack.

2) How did ALL THREE cities get destroyed in one turn?

This question isn't a certainty, because we don't know if each side MUST retain a capital site in order to still be a side. If that is the case, then only the capital need be destroyed, but then Jillian's subsequent actions don't make sense, [strike]you'd think she'd go back to the area Faq was in in order to rescue some of her "frozen" comrades.[/strike] Actually, I need to revise that, rereading the Klog entry that talks about freezing sides, since Jillian was the heir, she would be the Overlord if any city standing still counted. And of course, if any city still stood, unveiled, for years, Transylvito would have seen it.

All of this logically suggests that all three cities went down simultaneously, which seemingly can't be explained by a "random dwagonflight" theory.

Here's the most plausible explanation I have:
1) King Banhammer was so named because he had the Arkenhammer, but he was not attuned to it.
2) Stanley visits Banhammer for diplomatic reasons, is shown the Arkenhammer, and attunes to it the moment he touches it.
3) The attunment summons the dwagons, who level Faq and it's subsidiary cities before Stanley learns how to use the Arkenhammer to control them.
4) Stanley says "oops", invites the survivors back to Orgchart (including Wanda and Jack), and goes on with life.
5) Jillian hears of Stanley's mastery of dwagons and, unaware of the Arkenhammer's attunement ability, assumes a deliberate attack.

Of course, even in my explanation, Stanley is responsible. Just not maliciously. This explanation has the added benefit of placing Stanley in a city with a Predictamancer, who could have forseen (started?) his quest for the Titan Tools.

I don't like my theory, since I have this nagging hunch that the visit to Faq coincides with the goblins putting down Saline, and if that were the case, he'd have already had the Arkenhammer for quite some time (see here - they're very specific about him getting the Arkenhammer as a regular Warlord, and not going out on the special mission until he was the Chief Warlord).

[jmsl]

No no no. You all have it wrong.
Clearly what happened was King Banhammer and King Saline IV worked together to bring about the end of war on Erfworld, with the help of the Magic Kingdom.
Saline IV ordered Stanley and his dwagons and the casters to go to Faq and wipe it out, then ordered the gobwins to stage a coup. Banhammer ordered Jack and Wanda to go with Stanley and all his troops to die to Stanley to level him up. Janis is the only remaining ringleader, though she has helpers in the thinkamancers as well. This will be the victory of philosophy over war in the greatest conflagration Erfworld has ever seen.
With or without a giant marshmallow man.

[BLANDCorporatio]

No no no. You all have it wrong.
Clearly what happened was King Banhammer and King Saline IV worked together to bring about the end of war on Erfworld, with the help of the Magic Kingdom.
Saline IV ordered Stanley and his dwagons and the casters to go to Faq and wipe it out, then ordered the gobwins to stage a coup. Banhammer ordered Jack and Wanda to go with Stanley and all his troops to die to Stanley to level him up. Janis is the only remaining ringleader, though she has helpers in the thinkamancers as well. This will be the victory of philosophy over war in the greatest conflagration Erfworld has ever seen.
With or without a giant marshmallow man.

Also, Bogroll came up with that plan; which explains his loyalty to LordHamster.

Yes, it all falls into place now ...

[Imgran]

And we've already had this discussion. Correlation does not equal causation, and "reasons of her own" does not adequately express a "simple solution" as to why Wanda would follow Stanley. And it seems like far too obvious of a detail for the writer's of Erfworld to have just thrown out there as the only solution; it seems much more like the beginning of a plot twist than any actual answer as to what happened at Faq.

Correlation may not equal causation, but I'm not exactly a devout believer in the word "coincidence" and the overflight of dwagons is pretty damning.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Wanda's reasons for following Stanley are more or less of a red herring, unimportant to the discussion of how Faq fell until proven otherwise. If it comes out later that Wanda betrayed Faq to its doom I'm not exactly going to be surprised, but it's only critical to the question of how the world knew about Faq, and that question can be answered in other ways that don't involve Wanda (such as Gobwin Knob's now-defunct cadre of Lookamancers).

Moreover, the only evidence we have that Maggie ever plied her trade on Jack Snipe is the mindlink. Otherwise, there's no indication that Maggie ever bothered with him, or that she put a loyalty spell over him, or anything similar.

But we think we know that Maggie (or some other Thinkamancer, but Maggie is the obvious one to have done it) cast at least one spell on Jack. If she cast one, there's no particular reason she couldn't, or wouldn't, have cast others.

And again, "Wanda is weird + Maggie uses loyalty spell to make up for Stanley's assault" is still a more complicated solution than "Wanda and Jack are loyal to Stanley because he didn't attack Faq." Especially since that, if Wanda was so willing to betray her previous Overlord, there's no reason for her to be so loyal to this fairly incompetent new one she's got.

And I'm not sure how Stanley not being Overlord at the time affects their loyalty in any way. If you are correct, then he still destroyed Faq, and that would still make their loyalty to him very low indeed.

That assumes either of them particularly cared that Faq was destroyed. Of the two, Jack might care, but I imagine Stanley's campaigns for the Arkentools, or heck, just plain working for an aggressive King/Overlord would present Wanda an opportunity to ply her trade while searching for the Arkenpliers and she'd be stupid to mess that up.

[Wizzardman]

Or you're just a troll trying pretty poorly to troll the troll.

No, you see, if I was a troll, I would have jumped on you by now.

I apologize if it seems like I'm counter-trolling, but your arguments came off as deliberately chosen in order to anger or insult people, so I was making a generalization.

I'm well aware of the BS pseudo-epistemology people are trying very poorly to apply. The problem is that the OP is making an extraordinary claim. So saying "I'm agnostic" doesn't help. I don't need you to point out to me that, "Wow! Anything is possible in a world with uncertainty!"

Really?

Apparently, you do, as you seem insistent on believing that there is only "one" logical explanation. Once again, your argument still leaves holes, and as such, there is enough evidence not covered by your theory to leave your theory in question.

" or "I don't really know, so I'll throw out epistemological semantics to stall the discussion"

You say "stall," I say "poke holes in your argument." So far, as you have not yet provided reasons to cover them, I'd say that I have done so.

Again, I'm well aware that Dwagons might be famously social or that another person could tame them. The problem is that:
A) You still have no other evidence.
B) That would require adding another antagonist we haven't seen for a significant portion of the strip.

Which is why it was just a suggestion [and a fairly nonsensical one at that]. You keep trying to suggest that I'm saying "this is how it works." I'm not. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy involved in assuming that your particular argument is the only one that works.

I already gave that working definition. You just didn't bother reading it before accusing me of trolling.

Maybe I'm particularly blind today, but unless you're saying that "Any other explanation virtually has zero evidence" is your definition of unreasonable amounts of doubt, I'm afraid you're going to have to quote yourself, and show me where exactly you say that. And while there isn't necessarily a lot of evidence to support the "Jetstone did it" theory just yet, there are enough flaws in your argument to make it a distinct possibility.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes even if it isn't we don't have enough information to say what it is so it's best to just go along with it being a cigar, in lieu of a better explanation.

But that doesn't mean we should entirely neglect the possibility that its not a cigar.

Ansom was Jetstone's chief warlord. I think it's safe to say that if he didn't know about it, Jetstone's military interests weren't involved.

That is a very good point. Unless there was some reason that Ansom wouldn't have been informed about it (which is very unlikely) then Jetstone probably wasn't involved.

Indeed, there's evidence against it. But you dodge the real issue which is why are they with Stanley at all.

Yep. Other than the possibility that Stanley showed up to support Faq (a theory which doesn't have much evidence in its support at the moment, so I'll avoid bringing it up until such time as it does), I do not have a specific explanation as to why Jack and Wanda are on Stanley's side.

Apparently explaining things that kind of but don't quite fit is a duty for those who disagree with you, not for you. They shatter theories you don't agree with but preserve your own.

Of course not. I'm playing devil's advocate, here. I'm not the thread's OP; I'm not here to provide a specific argument in support of "Jetstone destroyed Faq." I'm simply here to try to point out the areas of your argument that make it a bit less than the "guaranteed answer" some of its supporters believe it is.

No, they really don't. What makes sense is we don't know all the details of Faq's fall. That does not mean that what we do know is completely false. Far from it. I don't know why the casters are loyal to Stanley. I see no reason to assume the reason is that Stanley isn't responsible for the destruction of Faq.

Except that "Stanley destroyed Faq" doesn't fit well with Jack and Wanda remaining loyal to Faq. As such, other possibilities must be considered.

And "they forgive him" is still a terrible explanation for Jack and Wanda's continued loyalty.

Correlation may not equal causation, but I'm not exactly a devout believer in the word "coincidence" and the overflight of dwagons is pretty damning.

Oh, I doubt there's a coincidence. Personally, I'm just expecting another plot twist.

But we think we know that Maggie (or some other Thinkamancer, but Maggie is the obvious one to have done it) cast at least one spell on Jack. If she cast one, there's no particular reason she couldn't, or wouldn't, have cast others.

But there's no evidence that she did cast others on him, either, or that they would still be reliable enough to hold Jack's loyalty even after Jillian attempted to kill Stanley and rescue him--and it has already been mentioned that loyalty spells are unreliable in cases of extreme emotional duress. This suggests (at least to me) that Jack's loyalty is genuine, and that there therefore must be some reason for it.

That assumes either of them particularly cared that Faq was destroyed. Of the two, Jack might care, but I imagine Stanley's campaigns for the Arkentools, or heck, just plain working for an aggressive King/Overlord would present Wanda an opportunity to ply her trade while searching for the Arkenpliers and she'd be stupid to mess that up.

True. I had been assuming that Wanda cared, because destroying Faq severely hurt Jillian (as it forces her into merc status, and prevents her from eventually taking Faq's throne), but I imagine she would be willing to accept the loss of Faq in exchange for a better chance to ply her trade.

However, that still doesn't explain why she's so strongly loyal to Stanley. If she has already shown her willingness to betray a leader in exchange for what she wants, why wouldn't she do the same again, to save her own life? Why wouldn't she use Jillian to get out of Gobwin Knob before Ansom's army reached it?

[Kasavin]

I don't like my theory, since I have this nagging hunch that the visit to Faq coincides with the goblins putting down Saline, and if that were the case, he'd have already had the Arkenhammer for quite some time (see here - they're very specific about him getting the Arkenhammer as a regular Warlord, and not going out on the special mission until he was the Chief Warlord).

Something else to consider is Sizemore's presence on this "special mission." He's given no indication he was there when Stanley destroyed a faction or when he first obtained Wanda and Jack. Not conclusive, but would suggest that special mission was something else, and Sizemore seemed to think it was an excuse to just get out of the city so Saline could be deposed.

[Bogardan_Mage]

But that doesn't mean we should entirely neglect the possibility that its not a cigar.

I'm not suggesting we do. I'm suggesting we accept the possibility that it is.

Yep. Other than the possibility that Stanley showed up to support Faq (a theory which doesn't have much evidence in its support at the moment, so I'll avoid bringing it up until such time as it does), I do not have a specific explanation as to why Jack and Wanda are on Stanley's side.

And yet, despite your habit of leaping on far less important inconsistancies as rendering various arguments invalid, this doesn't trouble you?

Of course not. I'm playing devil's advocate, here. I'm not the thread's OP; I'm not here to provide a specific argument in support of "Jetstone destroyed Faq." I'm simply here to try to point out the areas of your argument that make it a bit less than the "guaranteed answer" some of its supporters believe it is.

If there is no better explanation we have to go with the best one avaliable until more evidence has been uncovered. You are only doing half the work you claim, and it is the wrong half.

Except that "Stanley destroyed Faq" doesn't fit well with Jack and Wanda remaining loyal to Faq. As such, other possibilities must be considered.

And "they forgive him" is still a terrible explanation for Jack and Wanda's continued loyalty.

"Stanley is innocent in the destruction of Faq" may explain this one point, but it raises much larger problems (such as the question of who is responsible, we're now looking for a completely different side!) There, I considered them and rejected them. As I said, you're concentrating on the wrong half: bringing down the main theory instead of bringing up other theories. The other theories are too far down for just the former to work.

[Phoen]

Here's a couple variations on a not so ridiculously out there theory of mine I came up with nigh moments ago.

1. The predictamancer for FAQ(Wanda?) fed wrong information to Jack and he failed to hide the right place at the right time when the "Overflight of dwagons" appeared, and that's how FAQ fell. Stanley was with this overflight and took phat caster loots for himself.

2. The predictamancer told Wanda her future, and she convinced Jack to go along with the plan of letting this overflight of dwagons destroy FAQ, and to join Stanley's side afterwords. This would probably mean that it was Stanley's dwagons again, as they can't move of their own accord if they're barbarian/neutral(Page101). This would also give a reason why Jack helped Stanley escape when he saw Jillian in the battle at the pass, he was too ashamed of his actions to confront her(cuz yanno, losing the heir's kingdom intentionally is bad).

I'm not terribly sure if this theory was already put out there or not, but I'm really not trying to quote anyone else's ideas here.

[Imgran]

Something else to consider is Sizemore's presence on this "special mission." He's given no indication he was there when Stanley destroyed a faction or when he first obtained Wanda and Jack. Not conclusive, but would suggest that special mission was something else, and Sizemore seemed to think it was an excuse to just get out of the city so Saline could be deposed.

Not really. It could have been the mission to destroy Faq but even if it was, it was superfluous to the story Sizemore was telling and so he didn't mention it. His audience (Parson) had no reason to know or care about Faq and it would have just turned into a digression and geography lesson.

[Imgran]

Here's a couple variations on a not so ridiculously out there theory of mine I came up with nigh moments ago.

1. The predictamancer for FAQ(Wanda?) fed wrong information to Jack and he failed to hide the right place at the right time when the "Overflight of dwagons" appeared, and that's how FAQ fell. Stanley was with this overflight and took phat caster loots for himself.

2. The predictamancer told Wanda her future, and she convinced Jack to go along with the plan of letting this overflight of dwagons destroy FAQ, and to join Stanley's side afterwords. This would probably mean that it was Stanley's dwagons again, as they can't move of their own accord if they're barbarian/neutral(Page101). This would also give a reason why Jack helped Stanley escape when he saw Jillian in the battle at the pass, he was too ashamed of his actions to confront her(cuz yanno, losing the heir's kingdom intentionally is bad).

I'm not terribly sure if this theory was already put out there or not, but I'm really not trying to quote anyone else's ideas here.

The big problem with this theory is, King Banhammer knew that Faq would be destroyed someday. That's why Jillian popped.

Jack helped Stanley escape because of Duty. We don't need any fancier explanation than that.

The simplest cause for the fall of Faq is that Stanley was off on an Arkentool hunt and either he followed a Faq unit home, stumbled over them by accident, or Misty saw through Jack's veil.

[ishnar]

Jack helped Stanley escape because of Duty. We don't need any fancier explanation than that.

Actually, since Jack was offered an opportunity to turn where it would have obviously been to his personal advantage to turn due to overwhelming odds, duty isn't enough.

Loyalty has to come into play here. Either a loyalty spell or personal loyalty. Just because Wanda is under no loyalty spell does not mean that Jack is not, but it could be normal loyalty due to something Stanley did in the past as well.

[Sieggy]

Ummm . . .may I point out that the only real evidence that FAQ was actually destroyed is purely inferential? We have Jillian stating that she was on a mission, received a message about dwagons, and the next turn, she was a barbarian. She never went back to see what had happened. She made the assumption that it had been destroyed, but didn't go back to verify this. In fact, no one seems to have. I find this extremely interesting . . . You'd think that SOMEONE would want to check it out.

Add to that the fact that in the time since FAQ was supposedly destroyed, their TV neigbors (in fact, no one) haven't run across any ruins. You'd think that unless there was a total annihilation of the populace, there would be refugees / survivors carrying tales, or at least rumors.

I just can't see someone as rash and brash as Stanley taking out 3 cities simultaneously without bragging about his military prowess to anyone unlucky enough to be in the same room with him. And given that he's lost 11 cities since he began the Quest for the Arkentools, I seriously don't see him as having the moxie to have wiped out 3 cities in a single turn. Especially since his staff of casters was supposed to have increased by a croakamancer and foolamancer after his supposed conquests . . . you'd think that they would increase his effectiveness, not dimimish it.

The fact that Jack and Wanda seem to be loyal to Stanley without any form of magical coercion is also interesting - if they were captured units, their loyalty should be low enough to require some form of insurance. Which seems not to be the case.

There is an awful lot of theorizing and speculating in the absence of facts. They are educated guesses and some pretty wild speculation, but what is really KNOWN is very little. I strongly suspect that little to none of this will be resolved in this book, though the print version may go into more detail than the web version. I'm hoping the Authors post their second volume as they did the first, and will DEFINITELY buy them when they're up for sale. Actually, I'm hoping they offer a pre-publication sale price for us loyal erf-fans . . . (erfians? erfers? erfheads?)

All this is akin to the tales about Atlantis and the Druids; what is actually know about either wouldn't fill a pamphlet, but bookshelves have been filled with all kinds of theories and speculation on both topics, most of which have no basis whatsoever in fact. (I have an acquaintance who tells people that he's a druid but can't compose a limerick - I've told him how lucky he is that there aren't any REAL druids left, as if there were, he'd most likely be at the bottom of a bog somewhere . . .)

[slayerx]

Ummm . . .may I point out that the only real evidence that FAQ was actually destroyed is purely inferential? We have Jillian stating that she was on a mission, received a message about dwagons, and the next turn, she was a barbarian. She never went back to see what had happened. She made the assumption that it had been destroyed, but didn't go back to verify this. In fact, no one seems to have. I find this extremely interesting . . . You'd think that SOMEONE would want to check it out.

Why verify it, the fact that Jillian was a barbarian was proof as it was.
Her status was proof that the city was destroyed, and the last report places the blame on a large flight of dwagons... going to the ruins would have been pointless; she'd find nothing but ruins and they would provide her no leads to the leader of the dwagons

Add to that the fact that in the time since FAQ was supposedly destroyed, their TV neigbors (in fact, no one) haven't run across any ruins. You'd think that unless there was a total annihilation of the populace, there would be refugees / survivors carrying tales, or at least rumors.

Their neighbors have also never found the cities themselves... a master class foolamancer, Jack, was the ONLY reason those cities were never discovered... without him their, nothing was hiding FAQ anymore and it would have been discovered by the vampires... that's the biggest problem with your theory... you point out them not finding the ruins, but at the same time overlook the fact that it would be 100x's easier to spot full functioning cities

As for ruins, you know nothing about what would remain of a city... for all you know, a city that is destroyed is reduced to level 0; which likely means no buildings or anything... this in turn would not make it easy to spot as there would be barely anything left... Transyvito units may have passed by close enough to see the cities, but not necessairly directly over or close enough to see an empty plot... that's why they need to go out their and check for it as they can not see it from where ever they are

AS for the survivors... taking out the possibility that Stanely didn't just wipe them all out, if Jillian did not keep paying their upkeep, survivors would have been disbanded... but considering Stanely wanted to use FAQ as his escape, it is likely that he would indeed want to throughly wipe them all out

I just can't see someone as rash and brash as Stanley taking out 3 cities simultaneously without bragging about his military prowess to anyone unlucky enough to be in the same room with him. And given that he's lost 11 cities since he began the Quest for the Arkentools, I seriously don't see him as having the moxie to have wiped out 3 cities in a single turn. Especially since his staff of casters was supposed to have increased by a croakamancer and foolamancer after his supposed conquests . . . you'd think that they would increase his effectiveness, not dimimish it.

For one thing, we don't know WHNE he started his quest as he could have started AFTER faq... back when he did still have 11 cities.

Second of all, Faq was practically defenseless; that explains how Stanely was able to destroy all 3 cities in one turn... it was a city that practiced pacifism to the point that Jillian said their soldiers could be more described as clerks... it seems the only units that could fight were the mercenaries which were always out in the field with jillian... without them, Faq is pretty much defenseless

[Kreistor]

Why verify it, the fact that Jillian was a barbarian was proof as it was.
Her status was proof that the city was destroyed, and the last report places the blame on a large flight of dwagons... going to the ruins would have been pointless; she'd find nothing but ruins and they would provide her no leads to the leader of the dwagons

What if the cities were all captured, instead of destroyed?

What would happen if Banhammer surrendered the Side to Stanley?

What would happen if Banhammer simply stopped paying her upkeep?

Any of these might wind up with Jillina becoming a Barbaian. None are as likely as Stanley destrying the place, but all are possible events. We should find out soon, hopefully with an explanation by Wanda about the Prediction about her and the Arkenpliers.

[slayerx]

What if the cities were all captured, instead of destroyed?

What would happen if Banhammer surrendered the Side to Stanley?

What would happen if Banhammer simply stopped paying her upkeep?

the first two are pretty much the same result... the faq side ends... does it really make any difference whether banhammer surrendered, if the cities were just captured, or if they were outright destoryed?... i mean, Jillian doesn't actually care about Faq, she's happy as a barbarian... she could care less over the exact circumstances of how he side fell

as for the third outcome... Jillian became a barbarian along with all the units she was with, meaning banhammer wouldn't have just stop paying her upkeep, but everyone of his field units... hell, Stanely told parson he could end him with a thought and banhammer could likely do the same; erase her instead of just stop paying her upkeep (if that would result in being a barbarian instead of winding up croaked)

not to mention that jillian isn't really known for her brains, so such alternative outcomes she might not have thought of and just concentrated on the "flight of dwagons followed by her barbarianism...

[Kreistor]

the first two are pretty much the same result... the faq side ends... does it really make any difference whether banhammer surrendered, if the cities were just captured, or if they were outright destoryed?

Because we can't then draw the conclusion that Faq was destroyed as you said. The cities could still be there under Stanley's control.

[HandofShadows]

If Faq is still there, I don't think it would be under Stanley's control. GFK is stated as being Stanley's last city. Now it could be there under Banhammer. Who says you can't have two foolamancers?

[Kreistor]

Ah, but Faq was a "bubble Kingdom" and hidden from all in the region. Wouldn't it be prudent to keep it hidden and forbid speaking of it? Only Stanley, Wanda, and Jack would have to keep the secret. And JAck, well... he wasn't capable of communicating about it until recently.

[MalikT]

I still think Charlie destroyed Faq. So check this crazy conspiracy theory:

Charlie decides to conquer GK for reasons only known to him (assumption: strategic position, money - 500k seems to be a lot of money and that hammer is a nice bonus). But you can't just charge into a toughest defensive position in the (erf)world. So he needs a diversion.

Lets assume at this point that GK and Faq are allies. Makes some sense: if you are an isolationist nation you still need at least one nation to trade with and someone who will arrange your mercenary jobs.

Back to the crackpot theory: So he attacks Faq in order to draw out Stanley and the dwagons out of GK. Then he persuades gobwins (using money, thinkamancy etc.) to attack GK. With this he conquered GK an kept his hands clean. Now he only needs to take cities from neutral/barbarian sides.
Perfect plan, with only one oversight - Saline made Stanley heir designate and he's not disbanded. Stanley defeats forces (archons or more likely mercenaries Charlie hired/mind controlled) at Faq, rescues two casters and retakes GK before Charlie.

Aftermath: Stanley is confused and angry. He suspects that Charlie is responsible for the attack on GK and death of the king Saline, but he can't prove anything. So he attacks anyone who ever did business with Charlie doing some collateral damage(jetstone troops). With his actions he gives other sides reason to attack him and war breaks out.

I know this theory has more holes then a whole wheel of swiss cheese, so feel free to find them all.

[Anias]

I just can't see someone as rash and brash as Stanley taking out 3 cities simultaneously without bragging about his military prowess to anyone unlucky enough to be in the same room with him. And given that he's lost 11 cities since he began the Quest for the Arkentools, I seriously don't see him as having the moxie to have wiped out 3 cities in a single turn. Especially since his staff of casters was supposed to have increased by a croakamancer and foolamancer after his supposed conquests . . . you'd think that they would increase his effectiveness, not dimimish it.

Well, this actually makes very good sense. And it brings up something that no one on this thread has mentioned yet: Stanley (until now) hasn't won A SINGLE BATTLE after he started his quest for the Arkentools. This we know as well as anything; it's been said in the strip. We know that Stanley had his hammer when he left on his "secret mission," since they're riding dwagons; ergo, he was probably on his quest for the other tools at this point in time, whether or not the mission was related to this quest. If he hasn't won a battle since he started his quest, his secret mission couldn't have been him conquering Faq, since that would require that he win (at least) three battles, one for each city.

For one thing, we don't know WHEN (Edited for spelling) he started his quest as he could have started AFTER faq... back when he did still have 11 cities.

Ummm...this doesn't make much sense. If the secret mission (which most people believe involves Stanley going to Faq), resulted in Stanley's destruction of Faq the he already had begun his quest for the Tools. He already had the hammer at this point, remember? Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to use dwagons...

[Kholdstare]

Here's my theory:

Stanley took down faq and had the casters join. Since Banhammer treated his warlords like crap it isn't that far off that he treated his casters like crap too. It also supports why he knows his way there. The Jetstone tribe having any involvement in the destruction of Faq is absolutely crap. Why? Because they had absolutely no reason to. King Banhammer was a king. Royalty. That and they were a bubble kingdom with no contact to them and therefore no chance to offend them. Stanley on the other hand was on a crusade to find all of the Arken tools. He could have gone about just conquering cities until he found them which is pretty damn likely as to what he was doing.

Short and simple. They were just a casualty on Stanley's conquest to obtain ultimate power. It follows the most supported evidence. Ansom and Jillian both suspected Stanley. Why? Dwagons aren't very common and anyone who did have Dwagons would be known thus opening up different possibilities. It could be that Dwagons are wild creatures that can be tamed under very specific circumstances and thus having them as a side's unit would be rare. Or they only spawn under very specific circumstances but even then that makes them just as rare if not rarer.

A large overflight of dwagons coming from another side with no one suspecting them is pretty crappy story telling and I think too highly of Erfworld to suspect it.

[slayerx]

Because we can't then draw the conclusion that Faq was destroyed as you said. The cities could still be there under Stanley's control.

Well i guess so... though grant it, it feels like semantics as their doesn't really feel like their is much of a difference between a destoryed side/city and one that's been taken over... in either case, Faq as a side is over and done with...

not to mention we still have the other really telling question like how those would have remained hidden without a masterclass foolamancer

If Faq is still there, I don't think it would be under Stanley's control. GFK is stated as being Stanley's last city. Now it could be there under Banhammer. Who says you can't have two foolamancers?

Jillian... she continuously referred to faq having "a" masteclass foolamancer, and that they would veil the cities "one" at a time. It takes a masterclass foolamancer to veil a whole city and if Faw had more than one, Jillian would have mentioned having more than one... not to emntion that if they had more than one, then there would have been little problem with her tking Jack out into the field

Ummm...this doesn't make much sense. If the secret mission (which most people believe involves Stanley going to Faq), resulted in Stanley's destruction of Faq the he already had begun his quest for the Tools. He already had the hammer at this point, remember? Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to use dwagons...

you are making two assumptions here...

First, That Stanely attacked Faq looking for the tools... we do not know the reasons he attacked the city, and if this was before he started his quest he could have had other reasons... He may have attacked them for the sake of getting their casters.

second, that Stanely started his quest right after he got the hammer... for all we know he did not start getting deluded about his destiny until several years after acquiring the hammer... hell, Wanda could have been the one who put the idea in his head in the first place so that she could get to the pliers

I know this theory has more holes then a whole wheel of swiss cheese, so feel free to find them all.

ok

Charlie decides to conquer GK for reasons only known to him (assumption: strategic position, money - 500k seems to be a lot of money and that hammer is a nice bonus). But you can't just charge into a toughest defensive position in the (erf)world. So he needs a diversion.

Considering charlie's prices for thinkamancy messaging, and the overcharge 250k per turn he made to the vamps, i'd say that with his rates, 500k is not THAT much in the long run.... furtharmore, other sides i would imagine might have similar treasury's... and strategic position is out because it does not seem like charlie has been doing much to expand his side.

Lets assume at this point that GK and Faq are allies. Makes some sense: if you are an isolationist nation you still need at least one nation to trade with and someone who will arrange your mercenary jobs.

First, Jillian, heir and leader of the mercs would know if GK was an ally...

Second, Trade is only needed if you do not have enough resources or making enough money yourself... between the farmlands, the mines and the merc work, it sounds like they had all they needed, especially since they did not have any huge ambitions and thus did not require much extra growth

third, Mercenary jobs can be acquired by either contacting the sides through a thinkamancer, or by simply having your units ride out to whatever major conflict is going on in the world and make them an offer face to face... no real need for a third party

forth, if they were allies, then a large incoming flight of dwagons would not be considered a bad thing as it was likely nothing more than a visit from Stanley... and instead their would have been frantic reports about attacking archons...

Back to the crackpot theory: So he attacks Faq in order to draw out Stanley and the dwagons out of GK. Then he persuades gobwins (using money, thinkamancy etc.) to attack GK. With this he conquered GK an kept his hands clean. Now he only needs to take cities from neutral/barbarian sides.
Perfect plan, with only one oversight - Saline made Stanley heir designate and he's not disbanded. Stanley defeats forces (archons or more likely mercenaries Charlie hired/mind controlled) at Faq, rescues two casters and retakes GK before Charlie.

Ignoring the above points, not half bad...
only problems might be as to why Stanley would bring Sizemore with him to fight faq... Sizemore talks as if he has never had to lead or croak anyone before, and without his golems the amount of help that Sizemore could provide would be minimal

Aftermath: Stanley is confused and angry. He suspects that Charlie is responsible for the attack on GK and death of the king Saline, but he can't prove anything. So he attacks anyone who ever did business with Charlie doing some collateral damage(jetstone troops). With his actions he gives other sides reason to attack him and war breaks out.

IF Stanley has such reaosning, Wanda would have likely said that was the reason Stanley did not like Charlie when he asked.... the way she speaks of it, Stanley has never made it clear why he does not like Charlie... i think the reason is becuase charlie is attuned to his tool

i think that should cover a oood number of the holes

[Kasavin]

If Jetstone (or anyone besides Stanley) destroyed FAQ... then the following needs to be accounted for in any alternative theory.

1. How else did a large force of Dwagons end up in Faq country the turn before the side fell?

2. How did two Faq casters end up in Stanley's employ?

3. How does Stanley know where Faq is?

4. If he didn't destroy the cities and thus no them to be unihabited, why did he try to flee there other than to start a new side?

Its much simpler to have Stanley destroy them... though unresolved questions remain.

1. How did Stanley even find the bubble kingdom?

2. Why did he not capture the cities and rebuild for the extra income?

I think its useful to establish a known chronology to help conspiracy theories (my own included).

A. Stanley and Sizemore Pop under King Saline IV

B. Stanley promoted to Warlord

C. Stanley finds Arkenhammer, becomes atuned, and start taming Dwagons.

D. Stanley promoted to Chief Warlord for his numerous battle victories and eventually Heir Designate.

E. Stanley leaves on a "special mission" taking important casters with him. Saline is killed when gobwins break alliance making Stanley Overlord.

F. Stanley returns and easily retakes Gobwin Knob.

G. Stanley embarks upon a quest to retrieve the Arkentools, and nearly looses everything.

H. 10 lost cities later, he has Wanda summon Parson.

A couple of ambiguities (such as the possibility of Stanley being promoted to Chief Warlord before finding the Arkenhammer), but generally I feel its solid.

Keen eyes may notice that FAQ is missing from this chronology. If we assume Stanley actually destroyed FAQ, I good assumption, then the event had to occur after Point C, but probably before G as well. I think its likely to have occurred after Saline is deposed, because otherwise he'd expect the FAQ cities to be rebuilt and add to his wealth. Alternatively, the "special mission" was to FAQ, and he left in such a hurry to get back and retake Gobwin Knob that he never bothered to rebuilt the cities. Or, it occurs after he embarks on his Arkentool quest, where it appears his grasp of strategy went to the dogs (if he ever had one) and he no longer considers cities important to national strategy.

EDIT: On another note, though, I really like the idea of Charlie as a puppeteer. Not so much because it fits the chronology or there are hints scattered about, but he has a master manipulator and unlike every other character seemed to be immune to having to make difficult desicions. Everything he did he got paid for and came out ahead (instead of having to make trade offs). This occurred right up to the point where Parson uncroaked the Volcano and wiped his forces out. I wouldn't put it past him to have several predictomancers on staff or on payroll trying to figure out desirous outcomes, such as landing the Arkenpliers.

[Imgran]

1. How did Stanley even find the bubble kingdom?

Gobwin Knob had an unrivaled Lookamancy corps at the start of TBFGK. Foolamancy is good to beat mortal eyes but I imagine it's less effective against scrying. Misty eventually saw through Jack's veil. Probably by following Jillian in her coming and going (her constant entrance and egress from the bottleneck was the most vulnerable part of King Banhammer's kingdom)

2. Why did he not capture the cities and rebuild for the extra income?

It's implied that Faq was very close to Transylvito, and was embroiled in a constant effort to keeo TV's superior scouting from seeing their cities.

In the teeth of a superior enemy, and trying to rule it from the outside, a bottleneck like the one that protected Faq makes it an extreme strategic liability (easy to siege, difficult to reinforce) -- especially if you're trying to rush ground units over a mountain against a largely air-based siege force like TV's.

TV's battle for the pass proved that that kingdom was a match for Lord Stanley's elite dwagon corps meaning that he couldn't be sure he was going to secure the bottlenek. And if you lose the bottleneck Don King takes out everything on the Faq side of the pass by simply securing the pass and raiding in force from a secure base until everything's dead. That's always the problem with "defensible" maps with only one way in and out.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Bolded sections are my filled-in responses.

If Jetstone (or anyone besides Stanley) destroyed FAQ... then the following needs to be accounted for in any alternative theory.

1. How else did a large force of Dwagons end up in Faq country the turn before the side fell? Large dragon exodus killed FAQ. The cause is not something I care to set in stone, due to its ambiguity; but I suspect Charlie may have spooked off some dragons lairing in his would-be fortress spot.

2. How did two Faq casters end up in Stanley's employ? Stanley came, tamed the dragons, and rescued them from the wreckage.

3. How does Stanley know where Faq is? The Arkenhammer does more than just allow you to tame any dragons that you happen to come across. IT allows you to find them (because I doubt Stanley would somehow randomly stumble across as many dragons as he owned. He thus found FAQ.

4. If he didn't destroy the cities and thus no them to be unihabited, why did he try to flee there other than to start a new side? Prior consultations with Wanda/Jack provided the bright idea.

Its much simpler to have Stanley destroy them... though unresolved questions remain.

1. How did Stanley even find the bubble kingdom? In my theory, he followed the dragons. *shrug*

2. Why did he not capture the cities and rebuild for the extra income? Too much trouble with Transylvito and the like, or too much distance - a large number of factors could have made it not worth the cost. Maybe he planned to conquer more cities quickly, and FAQ would suffer some sort of imperial inefficiency..

[ishnar]

A large overflight of dwagons coming from another side with no one suspecting them is pretty crappy story telling and I think too highly of Erfworld to suspect it.

I'd like to see what kind of support you can come up with for this statement. How would it be poor storytelling? So far the whole, "Only Stanley can use dragons" assumption is JUST that! Just because stanley is the only known local power with a weir of dragons doesn't mean that someone else might be keeping their weir a secret.

It might not even be a local force, when I play wargames, I'll often send out a recon force out capable of taking poorly defended cities.

[Imgran]

I'd like to see what kind of support you can come up with for this statement. How would it be poor storytelling? So far the whole, "Only Stanley can use dragons" assumption is JUST that! Just because stanley is the only known local power with a weir of dragons doesn't mean that someone else might be keeping their weir a secret.

It might not even be a local force, when I play wargames, I'll often send out a recon force out capable of taking poorly defended cities.

You're really reaching here. Just because Stanley controls Dwagons doesn't mean he destroyed Faq, sure, but it doesn't mean he didn't either.

It takes an Arkentool for Stanley to control Dwagons. I wouldn't think there are too many other warlords with large weirs of Dwagons out there. If there were, then Jillian, who's pretty well-travelled, wouldn't have been so quick to jump to the conclusion about Lord Stanley.

The problem here is that not only do people who want to blame someone other than Stanley for the destruction of Faq have to not just find an alternate explanation, they have to find one that fits available evidence -- and in doing so, they can't make it look like all they're doing is trying to massage the facts to match their prejudice, a standard I haven't seen any theory meet yet.

[ishnar]

You're really reaching here. Just because Stanley controls Dwagons doesn't mean he destroyed Faq, sure, but it doesn't mean he didn't either.　

My point had nothing to do with whether or not Stanley defeated Faq. So where was I reaching? My problem was with the statement about poor storytelling.

It takes an Arkentool for Stanley to control Dwagons.

That is an assumption not a fact. All we know is that it helps tame dragons. We don't know that it it necessary. Maybe it just gives a bonus.

[I wouldn't think there are too many other warlords with large weirs of Dwagons out there. If there were, then Jillian, who's pretty well-travelled, wouldn't have been so quick to jump to the conclusion about Lord Stanley.[/quote]

Another assumption. All we even have even slight information on is the local participants in the last book. We know nothing of other forces. We don't know how "well traveled" Jillian is. And if she really did spend almost all of her time away, then she wouldn't know if someone else local or relatively close had access to dragons. And like I said, someone could have popped dragons and be holding them as a secret weapon. It pays to not let others know your force composition.

The problem here is that not only do people who want to blame someone other than Stanley for the destruction of Faq have to not just find an alternate explanation, they have to find one that fits available evidence -- and in doing so, they can't make it look like all they're doing is trying to massage the facts to match their prejudice, a standard I haven't seen any theory meet yet.

The only evidence we have so far is that there was an overflight of dragons. All the rest is assumption. I really don't care either way. But we can't start crying "poor storytelling" when all we know now is very minimal information.

These are the facts, few as they are.
1. There was a large overflight of dragons.
2. Stanley is the only leader, so far, that we know has dragons.
3. Everyone hates Stanley
4. Wanda and Jack came from Faq, and Stanley knows where Faq is, so we know Stanley was at least present in faq.
5. Faq is in ruins.


These facts support Stanley destroying FAQ.

However,

3. Wanda is under no loyalty spell
4. Jack seemed regretful not unable to turn when given the opportunity.
5. Wanda said she has wrecked more than Parson has.

These facts do not support Stanley destroying Faq. Since it seems ALL units except casters are unique to a side, the Dragons might very well be a Stanley monopoly. However:

6. Units may be veiled. We don't need another attacker to have dragons. A foolamancer like Jack could make a flight of birds look like Dragons if he wanted. Jack made Stanley and his mount look like bats. So disguising one's units as another factions is a documented ability.

I don't personally care either way. But the evidence does not fully support any speculation atm.