OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Smoke_Rulz]

I glee'd at seeing Blackwing again! Crap, when was the last time we saw him? Way back at the Oracle?

Also, the outside of the castle doesn't really help V and O-Chul's odds of living...

[xyzchyx]

If I remember correctly, destroying a phylactery will not instantly kill a lich, but it allows the creature to be destroyed simply by slaying it. As long as the phylactery exists and is within range (I think the range is a mile), a lich can always come back after being killed. If the lich is killed while the phylactery is out of range, that will also permanently kill a lich also.

[WarriorTribble]

As I said earlier, Advanced Time Stop explicitly breaks DnD rules (at least for anything short of the gods). So why couldn't Soul Splice break the "1 hour of study" rule?

Why assume? I utilize Occam's Razor since such awkward rationales are mostly used by B rate writers to retcon away their mistakes, and I respect Rich too much to believe he'd stoop to that. Better to think he simply made a small error that may or may not be corrected.

Yes, there is. The indication that you're looking for is V just said he was out of Fly spells. This is all the explanation that is needed for us to say, "Oh, I guess it didn't work that way."

If the scene works with Explanation A but does not work with Explanation B, then guess what? Explanation A is valid until proven otherwise.

All anyone needs to do is stop looking for an excuse to criticize the author's skill.

EDIT: Plus, V was offscreen for some time between popping out from the Azure City fleet and Haley entering her room. He may have chosen to re-cast his Fly spell at that point for whatever reason. There are multiple possibilities, none of which are explicitly forbidden by the rules. Especially since the main effect, the Soul Splice, was invented by the author to act however he found convenient.

Absurd. By your logic all inconsistencies in plot are a'ok if a author just says so.

Like I said in another post, just because one can come up with plausible rationales doesn't mean something isn't a plot hole.

Also, with all due respects, you and some others need to stop coming up with excuses to criticize your fellow readers. I and a few others merely pointed out a minor flaw in the comic. Rich isn't God, he makes mistakes. More importantly, as a mundane entity it's perfectly ok to criticize him. SCRUBBED.

[Forbiddenwar]

So the question becomes: What is the average airspeed of an unladen schrodinger's familiar?

Sweet. 42, because it is the answer to everything.

[FoE]

Like I said in another post, just because one can come up with plausible rationales doesn't mean something isn't a plot hole.

Isn't the very definition of a plot hole an inconsistency that can't be easily explained or rationalized?

WarriorTribble, you and others have a right to complain about the comic, but that right extends to others who want to defend the comic. We're allowed to debate. SCRUBBED.

[SPoD]

[QUOTE=WarriorTribble;6202151]Absurd. By your logic all inconsistencies in plot are a'ok if a author just says so.

They are when we're dealing with fictional spell that does not exist anywhere else but in the author's head. It's impossible to be inconsistent when he hasn't told us how things work in the first place. We have no frame of reference.

[Ghostwheel]

Destroying the phylactery would mean that Xykon is mortal and easily (relatively) destroyed until he can create a new one.

If he reverted to mortal would he age appropriately (perhaps killing him of old-age) and lose all of those lich-powers?

[marquiz]

Heh, I love the tiny, surprised eyes of Blackwing, still, I hope, for the sake of the OotS members this is not a Xanatos gambit.

[The Giant]

The Voice of Mod: OK, stop it. Everyone.

First, if you want to debate endlessly about a minor aspect of the rules with regard to the comic, take it to another thread. Leave this one for general reactions.

Second, everyone has the right to express their opinions, even if that opinion is that someone else is wrong. People are permitted to criticize the comic, and they are permitted to defend the comic, as long as no one resorts to personal insults. You are not allowed to question the motives of someone who criticizes or defends the comic, nor suggest that they need to stop doing so!

Third, since some people HAVE resorted to personal insults, expect there to be some forthcoming scrubbing, infracting, and possibly banning. And that goes for anyone who continues sniping at each other after this.

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them, since that's what always happens when a wizard regains spell slots: you choose your spells. That's why I said it replenished slots instead of replenished spells, because slots need to be then prepared. It doesn't take an hour to do so for the same reason V didn't need to rest for 8 hours, because it was Big Mojo Magic that breaks the rules. It wasn't explicitly shown because it never occurred to me that it mattered to anyone, and I already waste enough panels explaining things that aren't actually important to satisfy a certain subset of readers. I have to draw the line somewhere, and this is where I drew it.

Hopefully, that will end the argument. Though perhaps that's overly optimistic of me.

[WarriorTribble]

Isn't the very definition of a plot hole an inconsistency that can't be easily explained or rationalized?

WarriorTribble, you and others have a right to complain about the comic, but that right extends to others who want to defend the comic. We're allowed to debate. Why don't YOU stop accusing people of being over-sensitive?

It just has to be a major inconsistency. And I do think this is big enough. While others would think otherwise, I've little desire to debate this point, so I'll just preemptively agree to disagree.

SCRUBBED.

[Draz74]

The kind of power doesn't matter as much as you'd think. Indeed.

Whoa ... I hadn't thought of that connection. Nice.

Actually, this episode gets the award for the one I least saw coming in many, many strips. I definitely thought Blackwing had left the story after his last appearance.

[RMS Oceanic]

...Well, we sure got told.

Thank you, Giant, for stepping in on this matter. I'm sorry it had to come to that, though.

On the comic itself, it's a great job, and I'm still on the edge of my seat, as I have been since O-Chul escaped. You certainly know how to keep the readers begging for more.

[Jeivar]

HAH! Now that's how you do a running gag!!

[aboyd]

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them, since that's what always happens when a wizard regains spell slots: you choose your spells. It doesn't take an hour to do so for the same reason V didn't need to rest for 8 hours, because it was Big Mojo Magic that breaks the rules.

Wow... the smackdown... it is so pretty!

[T-O-E]

Not looking good...

[factotum]

I notice a few people are talking about Xykon's soul being in his phylactery. It isn't. Xykon's soul is in his body right now. If his body were destroyed then his soul would go into the phylactery, but there's no great prospect of THAT happening anytime soon.

[Zohain]

If he reverted to mortal would he age appropriately (perhaps killing him of old-age) and lose all of those lich-powers?

He would still be a lich, but if he died he would die permanently.

[Zevox]

So that's the route this is taking, eh? Seems O-Chul is a quicker, more logical thinker than V right now, luckily for them both. Although it does stretch credibility a bit that they both survived that meteor swarm when they were already in such sorry shape, even assuming Xykon somehow missed every ranged touch attack.

That said, I'll be interested to see what happens when they phylactery is disposed of. Particularly what Xykon's reaction will be. I can think of only two fates that await O-Chul and V afterward, regardless of the specifics of Xykon's response: death, or capture with significantly worse torment even than O-Chul was already enduring.

Zevox

[Drammel]

As to Liches and their phylacteries:

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From page 151 of Libris Mortis,

A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed.

However...

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In Start of Darkness it is Redcloak and not Xykon who preforms the ritual to transform Xykon into a lich. Hence, why the phylactery is Redcloak's holy symbol and not something hidden away somewhere safe as most liches are prone to do. The important part to note here is that Redcloak created the phylactery. Technically, if Xykon wanted to he could create a new one by exploiting a loophole in the rules.

I know I'd find that hilarious as it is entirely in keeping with Xykon's character. That's why he leads Team Evil. He's not afraid to do whatever he wants by any means necessary.

Since I've got so many spoilers anyway, I'll add this:

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Personally, I'm a bit worried about Redcloak's comment to O-chul on the tower about the Snarl not having been seen unlike in previous accounts of the rifts. Add that to the worry about what the IFCC does actually want out of this encounter.

Assume for the moment, that it was the IFCC's intent all along to get the phylactery into the rift. If Xykon's soul is in it and isn't devoured, what then?
Some super fusion of Snarl/Xykon? That would spell DOOM in big scary capital letters wouldn't it? Who knows what else? I'll leave that for others to speculate.

[Smoke_Rulz]

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them...

...

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them...

Oh snap!

[Kish]

...



Oh snap!

Rich usually refers to Vaarsuvius as "he" on the forums, and said a while ago that no one should read anything more into this than that typing "he or she" all the time gets annoying.

[Smoke_Rulz]

Rich usually refers to Vaarsuvius as "he" on the forums, and said a while ago that no one should read anything more into this than that typing "he or she" all the time gets annoying.

I know, I'm just being silly. :D

[Korppis]

edit: nevermind with my points, we got the full explanation already...

[Xentropy]

Thank you, Giant, for clarifying the official stance on the matter. I think the fact he had no flight spells prepared pretty much already pointed to that being the method by which the slots were replenished, but if some people needed it spelled out by the author, so be it. :)

If I were faced with the same exact situation, knowing what was known when V was first given the splices, I would probably just figure Jepthon can cover flight if I need it refreshed and fill my own slots with more important spells. Seems I think like V. I guess I'm an idiot. ;)

[motub]

I think the crowning touch of the next comic will be....

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Vaarsuvius has to ask Blackwing to sacrifice itself (even if it can "fly above the Rift and drop the phylactery in", it will still be dangerous and there's a possibility/likelihood that BW will be hurt or killed)--- and say "Please." to boot. This will be the final understanding that others have needs/rights/desires/capabilities and deserve respect, not just to be ordered around by V as if shi was the only self-willed creature in the room. I bet Blackwing will do anything, no matter how dangerous, if V just asks like a friend, rather than orders like a master. That's all it ever wanted, some respect

.

Funny, if Rich hadn't already used "Here He Comes To Save The Day" (the Mighty Mouse cartoon theme song), I would have expected it here, since.... doesn't BW pop in of its own accord? V's expression looks too dismayed to suggest shi had a good idea and summoned it herself.

Oh, and it is a bit of a stretch, but I think that O-Chul dropped V (so the Meteor Swarm missed hir) and himself Evaded the meteors. But as we all may know from CRPGs, dodging an incoming ranged magic attack is often just that easy, so I'll take it.

But Xykon "runs" danged slow, doesn't he? (At the Speed of Plot, I know, OK).

You know, if Blackwing succeeds, I'd suggest as a finish

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that the two grab Xykon physically and jump out the window. Either he'll have to fly (saving them), or he will be smashed. So will they, of course, but it would be worth it, with the phylactery destroyed.

What I'd like to hear from people is where the loophole in the prophecy could be. I don't agree that the plot is railroading X and O to failure... it seems to be building momentum towards an unlikely but definitive win (against all odds, etc.).

But this is at odds with the prophecy that Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate before he will be within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate at some point in the future.

However, we also know that the Oracle has "fudged" (misdirected) prophecies before (as with Belkar).

Presuming that the Oracle did not outright lie, how could X + O win now (by destroying Xykon) and the prophecy could still be fulfilled?

Go, Impromptu Team Good!

[Corncracker]

First off, on the note of if the sorcerer of the splice could cast Overland Flight or flight, I don't think so.

If you look at Gestalt rules, A sorcerer/Wizard can cast a lot of spells. However, the Sorcerer can only cast the spells from his sorcerer pool spontaniosly, just as the Wizard can only prepare his spells from his spell book, not of spells the Sorcerer half may know that he doesn't.

Of course, this is just a guess and really unimportant. :p

And now for my own theory, which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet.

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http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

The fiends specifically say Qarr is there to run errands for them. They want V alive, and Qarr is currently the only thing at their disposal for keeping V that way. (Well, they probably have more, but using Qarr would mean The Giant wouldn't have to write in a new character. :p)

AT least I hope this theory hasn't been stated yet. I want to feel original.

[infiniteviking]

*delurks, because this comic was just that awesome*

Does anyone else think Vaarsuvius looks somewhat strangely adorable in that last panel? The long hair makes his figure look visually smaller, and with all the bruises, cuts, black eye and torn robes, you just kind of want to hug him... The fact that he's standing next to O-Chul, who is taller, probably helps too.

Huh... I'll probably want to make a drawing of that last panel. :)

Good idea. I might try for one too.

Rich usually refers to Vaarsuvius as "he" on the forums, and said a while ago that no one should read anything more into this than that typing "he or she" all the time gets annoying.

*does the same*

(Re Rafu's graphic:) HAHAHAHA! Yes, exactly; I will always hear that 'pop' as a 'bang' from now on!

..Anyway, as I was saying. This comic? Awesome. And the last I-don't-know-how-many also, but I've got to say it's great to see V in survival mode rather than ego mode. I hope both he and O'Chul survive.

Also, who else sees buddy movie potential there? *cackles*

[Majutsukai]

Funny, if Rich hadn't already used "Here He Comes To Save The Day" (the Mighty Mouse cartoon theme song), I would have expected it here, since.... doesn't BW pop in of its own accord? V's expression looks too dismayed to suggest shi had a good idea and summoned it herself.

Blackwing isn't "summoned"; as explained in an earlier strip, he only appears when Vaarsuvius remembers him. It's a running joke parodying the way people actually play the game, "forgetting" about their familiars unless they're actually needed.

[Porthos]

It's a running joke parodying the way people actually play the game, "forgetting" about their familiars unless they're actually needed.

This.

Technically Blackwing is supposed to be there all of the time, in practically every scene. It's just that since players stereotypically forget about their familiars until they need them, Blackwing pops in and out of existence depending on whether or not V remembers that he has him.

So it's not summoning, per se, but an "Oh yeah, I do have a Boot Dagger, don't I?" situation.

Yes, Blackwing isn't always reliable in this sort of situation. But that's all part of the (meta-)joke.

EDIT::: There was also a similar joke, but in reverse, when the OotS left Azure City. Which is still funny each and every time I look at it, BTW.

[Azukar]

This comic has always been entertaining, but this was the first strip in a long time to have me laughing out loud.

I know it's just an idea, but I'd like to see a return to form in the next few hundred strips - the whole team back together, all upgraded, older and wiser, and back to good old adventuring.