OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[pendell]

It was a speculation thread, and it started with "Everybody remember the raven, V's familiar (Blackwing/Arrow shooting target)? He's gonna come back, that's what I think."

Congratulations, here's your cookie. :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[appending_doom]

Xykon can't lose this easily. He has to live up to his BBEG/Recurring villain status. Being a combination of the two means he's got some serious plot armor - which he has apparently not relied on yet.

Also he's the wittiest of all characters combined.

Certainly Xykon can't lose this easily (and the way power is distributed in the room, it would take some serious deus ex machina for him to be destroyed at this junction). But he can lose his phylactery that easily. It's taken several back and forths, and the good guys have all the tools at their disposal to keep Xykon occupied for the 12 seconds or so it would take to (hopefully) destroy his phylactery forever.

The loss of the phylactery doesn't make Xykon less dangerous; in fact, depending on how he reacts to it, it could push him to become an Omnicidal Maniac and do what the AC paladins thought he was doing in the first place.

That said, all this is hinged on the assumption that throwing the phylactery into the Snarl will destroy it. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's possible that Something Bad Would Happen if the phylactery enters the gateway to the god-killing abomination.

[The Greek]

Destroying the phylactery would mean that Xykon is mortal and easily (relatively) destroyed until he can create a new one.

Would the phylactery be destroyed? Perhaps the snarl is aware of what it is and wait for the sould to arrive at some point so it has something it knows it can look forward to.

since the Snarl has been around, watching and waiting since year dot it may well be aware of its properties, and therefore look forward to destroying something more than a bauble in the future. Especially since it might also be aware that not destroying it now might mean it will get its hands on a being that sought to control the snarl itself...

[Dr. Cthulwho]

In Star Trek they spontaneously create ice cream sundaes all the time. Well, presumably they do: I don't know if we've ever seen that specific order, but an ice cream sundae can't be any harder to create than 'Tea, Earl Grey, Hot'.

Ironically the hardest part isn't creating the Earl Grey Tea, it is making it hot.

Actually I'm not sure how it works. I always thought they had the structure of the food items on file, then the "replicator" got the matter from somewhere and rearranged it to make the desired object. Or technobabbled it till it was edible.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

That said, all this is hinged on the assumption that throwing the phylactery into the Snarl will destroy it. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's possible that Something Bad Would Happen if the phylactery enters the gateway to the god-killing abomination.

It could give the Snarl ideas... and when we next see it it will be a Snarl Lich!

[Teddy]

Will Blackwing do whatever V and O-Chul asks of him? He hasn't proved to be as loyal as you could wish of a familiar...

[motub]

That sounds like a good plan, though I don't know if they need any more of a distraction then Blackwing racing towards the Rift with Xykon's phylactery in hand (beak).

Well, honestly, how long is BW likely to be a distraction? X "runs" toward the hole, shoots off a spell or two, and either hits BW or doesn't. In either case, the whole thing is over in just a couple of seconds (6, or 12?), and now X is standing right there, next to our heroes. O-Chul is prepared to die, but if V is "supposed to" get away, shi's not going to have time to get anywhere before X is able to blast her to smithereens.

But, I rather suspect that everybody's plans are about to go awry, because...

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I very much think that the equation of "Phylactery + Rift" is not going to go as smoothly as everyone seems to think.... I mean, sure, the Rift may "unmake" the thing, but I really question whether unmaking an unholy object like this wouldn't have some kind of backlash, when occurring inside the Rift. A backlash that might affect the remaining gates in such a way as to make the prophecy invalid (because something completely outside of it happened), or to make it come true now, in an unexpected way.

[stsasser]

Your way, he kills a sapient creature the same alignment as Vaarsuvius in a thoroughly callous and un-O-Chulish way.

The 'just rented out his soul to three demons' alignment?

[Dr. Cthulwho]

But, I rather suspect that everybody's plans are about to go awry, because...

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I very much think that the equation of "Phylactery + Rift" is not going to go as smoothly as everyone seems to think.... I mean, sure, the Rift may "unmake" the thing, but I really question whether unmaking an unholy object like this wouldn't have some kind of backlash, when occurring inside the Rift. A backlash that might affect the remaining gates in such a way as to make the prophecy invalid (because something completely outside of it happened), or to make it come true now, in an unexpected way.

Now that would be good, something nice, unexpected and with a real impact on the story beyond inconveniencing Xykon somewhat.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

The 'just rented out his soul to three demons' alignment?

Or the "just gave up his chance to escape in order to help the downed Paladin" alignment?

[Evaine]

Sweet! I'm still hoping the MitD will step in and help O'Chul escape...

[otakuryoga]

go go gadget familiar!!

[Blaznak]

Whooo! Go team... er... what was the name of the Familiar again? (Hee hee). Actually, cool extradimensional Snarl picture!

Later

[Carteeg_Struve]

Okay.

Read the first couple of lines of the comic.

Was hooked.

Saw the massive image and read O-chul's line.

Eyes widened.

*POP*

Screamed "HOLY <insert your favorite poop-related expletive here>!"

[homeosapiens]

Was that directed at me? I did read the thread, I was just contributing my two cents into the debate.

As for your specific complaint, of course I can rationalize V not memorizing another flight spell:

He wasn't thinking clearly and presumed that the flight spell that he already had up would be sufficient. Should V have memorized more? I suppose so. But V hasn't exactly been known as a good tactial planner, now has he?

Sheeesh. All this drama over a ficitional character not memorizing enuf flight spells

It's not about how he didnt memorize more fly spells - he didnt memorize any of them, since we know he has spells replenished and he knew that spells casted by the splices dont last when splice ends and he had no reason to think he will stay spliced more than a day. You cant rationalize it in any other way, than by saying that V now have int and wis scores reserved for lemmingsor something. He used fly and overland flight all the time, and now he does not want to memorize them? Makes no sense.

I could assume there was no replenishing at all, but you can't make a positive argument that he would memorize them.

[Milandros]

There are several things I like about this strip.

Don't look at each strip in isolation - too many people still think of this a primarily a webcomic, when it is very often merely the next page of the printed book - Rich makes money from selling books, not web hits (look at the lack of adverts on the page). You have to take each strip as part of a larger whole, not as a self-contained entity.

In this one, he's continuing Xykon's theme on power. V has, it appears, finally found a chance to cause incredible harm to Xykon - and it wasn't through the use of epic spell slots, but through that most often overlooked and ignored wizard's ability, the familiar.

And the potential harm to Xykon is very great indeed, particularly if you think of him as an individual, a character, and not as a race/class combo to be discarded as necessary.

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Xykon is a survivor - note all his contempt for the mages who didn't "stay in the game"? Even if he was "killed", you could expect him to work to find some way or other to return.

The snarl, however, destroys you utterly. It obliterates your soul. In a universe where life-after-death is basically a proven fact, death is somewhat less scary - but obliteration? That's bad. especially for someone as focussed on exisiting as Xykon is.

So what if the phylactery isn't destroyed, but enters the Snarl's realm? This means another defeat for Xykon isn't merely time to regenerate, and it's not even death - his soul would then be pulled into the Snarl's domain, and totally obliterated.

The phylactery wouldn't be destroyed. Xykon couldn't just make a new one, and can't retreive the old unless he gains control of the Snarl. He would be in trouble.

This could potentially change completely how Xykon acts. He'd be terrified of final defeat, of losing forever. While O-Chul and V would not have ended the threat totally right this moment, they would have scored an incredible win for Team Good, because the next time that Xykon was defeated will be the end of him for sure.

We can't expect everything to suddenly wrap up in one strip sometime. Victory normally comes in advances and increments, not all at once, and for Team Good, that would be a great advance - or for the potential nit-pickers out there, a great result that would allow for and facilitate a massive success at a later date. (Not that this threat has been full of focussed nit-picking, or anything :) ).

[Shadowcaller]

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The phylactery wouldn't be destroyed. Xykon couldn't just make a new one, and can't retreive the old unless he gains control of the Snarl. He would be in trouble.

SoD Spoiler

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In SoD its revealed that Xykon can't actually get control of the snarl, its a unstoppable killing machine.

[Milandros]

SoD Spoiler

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In SoD its revealed that Xykon can't actually get control of the snarl, its a unstoppable killing machine.

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Yes, but in SoD it's also made clear that he doesn't know that - Redcloak is keeping it from him.

If his phylactery is sat with the Snarl, he's going to be desperate to try to gain control of it so he can retrieve it - and the fact that that's not going to be possible is just going to make things even more troublesome for everyone.

[Griever3216]

Since V popped in Xykon's tower, every single strip has a twist. V against Xykon, O-Chul surving and the fate of the phylactery. The way things seem now, destroying the phylacter is within their grasp again. And like I had stated in a previous discussion thread, I believed it would make Xykon more careful and that much more dangerous. We know that Xykon will be destroyed at the end (I will leave a small room for twists), but removing his immortality way before is more dramatic. And the way things seem now

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I still believe O-Chul will be killed and V will make it out alive. But the most obvious outcome would be for O-Chul to sacrifice himself while V escapes, or the IFFC affecting the outcome somehow indirectly.

But I really like this idea. It would make the strip that much more badass.

You know, if Blackwing succeeds, I'd suggest as a finish

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that the two grab Xykon physically and jump out the window. Either he'll have to fly (saving them), or he will be smashed. So will they, of course, but it would be worth it, with the phylactery destroyed.

As for what will happen once the phylactery is tossed in the rift? I believe nothing or whatsoever. Well, other than Xykon snapping.


P.S. Aww, O-Chul did not roundhouse kick Xykon all the way from the room to the rift. :(

[Snake-Aes]

People keep thinking nothing will happen if the phylactery reaches the Snarl.


Think a little about it.
1: The Snarl does nothing but destroy what it hates, and it hates everything simply because it exists.
2: Nothing resists the snarl's attack. Nothing.

[Krakes]

As for what will happen once the phylactery is tossed in the rift? I believe nothing or whatsoever. Well, other than Xykon snapping.

So he throws the phylactery into the hole with the god-killing abomination (tm) and you think nothing will happen? seriously?


P.S. Aww, O-Chul did not roundhouse kick Xykon all the way from the room to the rift. :([/QUOTE]

There's still time, my firend....

[Trixie]

So... what it actually accomplished?

First, Blackwing has a history of cowardice and betrayal - and a god killing abominations tend to evoke even more fear.

Second, Xykon can easily kill him - one Empowered Maximized Magic Missile and suddenly phylactery is out of reach for both of them and a lucky goblin at the base of the tower has free lunch.

Or Maximized Fireball, if you don't need the MM's accuracy (and with its explosion radius, you don't) to achieve the same effect. That might not work if familiar has evasion, though, but even 30 damage ought to be enough for the job.

Both are pretty low level for Xykon and he used them already in the strip.

Third, I liked theory about resistance killing Blackwing

Fourth, if one of these "Abjurations" was Instant Summons, all that does is V screaming in agony after losing a few CON points, and Xykon going "Heh, it looked like you thought you had a chance there", again.

Fifth, all these 'rifts' did so far was to make Snarl reach out and kill something sentient. He didn't destroyed inanimate objects, and even if it did, Redcloak noted that Snarl ignored this huge rift so far and haven't destroyed anything in a long time... So why come out now to grab an inert piece of metal?

Sixth, where's Recloak and Tsukiko during all this? No one noticed Meteor Swarms fired one after another and loudly detonating? No one bothered to check what's going on?

[Rai Thunder]

Feather Fall.

[Kaytara]

Another little detail I find interesting: V is yet again demonstrating his new-found ability to think outside the spellbook. He finds himself trying to escape a dangerous situation with someone else, a situation that could be escaped easily with the use of spells. He has no spells that could help. Back in Azure City, the fact of no longer having spells that could help itself made him completely freeze up in panic and be unable to even tell the soldiers to run because he couldn't help them. Now, he admits as much himself. Moreover, O-Chul explicitly asks for any SPELLS that could help. V doesn't have any, but rather than saying so, he immediately starts thinking of other options. Very nice. :)

I'm pretty sure this is where

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the MitD steps in. There is a very easy way a distraction could appear to cover V's and O-Chul's escape. I think people are forgetting the MitD's previously established awesome stomping ability. A stomp that caused an earthquake in solid ground is likely to completely tear the tower apart. It gets the job done AND does not require the MitD to step out of the darkness just yet. The only question that remains is how many of O-Chul's hitpoints Xykon will burn off before the MitD intervenes, and what exactly will finally trigger his intervention, given that O-Chul being blasted into unconsciousness by spells apparently wasn't enough to do so... Perhaps, in line of gags being used in a dramatic manner, the "What gate?" gag could make a dramatic reappearance, as well...

[pendell]

I have to draw the line somewhere, and this is where I drew it.

I thought you drew the line in-panel. I mean, it's a stick-figure strip, right? Nothing but lines?

:rimshot:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rev. George]

I don't know if we've ever seen that specific order, but an ice cream sundae can't be any harder to create than 'Tea, Earl Grey, Hot'.

Geek mode on: Actually we did: Troi ordered a hot fugde sundae one time Geek mode off.

Actually I'm not sure how it works. I always thought they had the structure of the food items on file, then the "replicator" got the matter from somewhere and rearranged it to make the desired object. Or technobabbled it till it was edible.

Geek mode back on: e=mc^2 IN ST:TNG They literally channeled energy through a converter to make the matter that was the food. Just like a transporter, but on a less exact level (IIRC there was something about quantum levels or something) ((Here's a plot problem- The loss of a few neutrons of mass produces massive amounts of energy in an atomic bomb. the amount of energy required to make a 500 gram sundae (or produced by changing a 200 lb Klingon into pure energy) is PHENOMENAL. Like "don't miss or you'll destroy the planet" kind of energy) Geek mode back off.

RE: Phylacteries: The way they seem to work in stiock world, and the way I've always ran them in DND is that the Phylactery is a device that, through awesome mojo serves as a soul "waiting room". When the soul associated with it is freed from a body, it normally would go on to whatever resting place/place of torment it was destined for, however the magic of a phylactery causes the soul to hang out there indefinitely. In the case of liches, the thing is also enchanted in such a manner that it can re-form the body (classically by necro-ing the living being holding it, though in most games (and stick world) it just re-grows). Once a body exists, the soul can inhabit it. (so in my games, if a liches body were destroyed, and then his lackey <i>wished</i> the body back together the soul could leave the phylactery and inhabit the new body w/o waiting to form a new one)

-+G

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh, I hope this works. Xykon may have plot armor but who says he has to continue being immortal?
Same as in recent strips, O-Chul will probably die, V will definitely get out alive, but everything happening is so incredibly badass.

[Xentropy]

I could assume there was no replenishing at all, but you can't make a positive argument that he would memorize them.

I assume you mean that he wouldn't. I have two arguments that prove positive arguments *can* be made to that effect:

1) The Giant said in this very thread that there was replenishment, and since V says he didn't memorize any, he must not have. (Circular argument as it may be, the story itself says that this is the case, so unless V is lying, which he has no reason to do at this point, it must be the case.)

2) V went into this assuming everything would go exactly according to plan. He did not know he could lose splices before he wanted to lose them. Thus, it is not a stretch at all to assume he did not expect to get superb dispelled by the Ancient Black Dragon (the only fight he originally set up his spell lists in preparation for), and figured on the off chance he somehow was dispelled, a splice could handle the rebuffing of flight for him. He wanted to drop the splices as soon as possible (his haste in running off to attack Xykon without his team proves this, as well as this being another thing V explicitly said), so by his original plan by the time he dropped the splices, he would have completed his Things To Do list, and would have all the time in the world to rest and refresh his spell list again *without* the splices in mind. And is flight really necessary for resting? Nope, so he really doesn't need it on his spell list TODAY. Tomorrow, sure, but today he's got the splices, and they're not going anywhere.

Sure, a lot of his assumptions turned out to be wrong, and with the benefit of hindsight a lot of people here are claiming they'd NEVER make those mistakes, but I'd be willing to bet with just the information leading up to the acceptance of the splice by V, a LOT of people would make these same decisions, and get burned by them when suddenly the GM says, "Ouch, your significant other isn't pleased. Roll. Oops, bad will save. By the way, one of the splices is gone now." I don't think, "But I set up my spell lists such that losing one of the three leaves me without certain important spells today!" is going to make the GM change his mind. "Sorry, tough luck."

Honestly, I wouldn't have bothered putting any spell Jephton knows on any of the other three lists. Why? Because he's got a ton of slots and I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME I could lose Jephton without consciously choosing to end the splices. Add to that the fact any epic sorcerer who doesn't have *some* kind of flight spell in his known list probably doesn't exist, and I wouldn't have memorized flight when I accepted the splice either. So I guess I'm a lemming too.

[The Pilgrim]

There goes Blackwing, ready to betray V's hopes once more!

[Dalek Kommander]

V was already flying when the ABD came along, hence already had a flight spell going. We've seen no fly spell since then, so the one in effect the whole time was V's assumedly. The splice "replenished" his spell slots, so by a sensible reading he should have his fly spell back, even if he had only prepared one.

Your nerd rage would be tedious enough if you were an actual rules lawyer pointing at the actual fine print of a spell effect that is precisely defined in the official rules (god knows we have enough rule lawyers in these forums as it is)... but you've managed to achieve the astounding feat of being just as irritating as the most bombastic sort of rules lawyer preening over his technical correctness, WITHOUT the sole redeeming quality they usually have of at least being technically correct.

There is no fine print for you to HAVE a technically correct point about. All you have to work with is a vague assertion that the spell slots would be "replenished", whatever that means. And it deserves to be stressed that this vague description came from a TRIUMVIRATE OF INFERNAL BEINGS! When you're LITERALLY dealing with devils, don't be surprised if the devil is in the details.

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice that when the demons said that each of them would get custody of V's soul for a period of time, they never actually promised to wait until after he's dead to act on their option? V clearly assumes so, but they didn't say it. Won't V be surprised when he gets to the gate, and they call in their half of the bargain? That's what happens to people who think they can make "sensible" assumptions while bargaining with infernal beings.