OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[allenw]

Now you carry a couple of potions of Cure Lite because your cleric can go down, and you want to get him back up. But once he is at 1 hp, he can churn out hundreds of hp. The advantage of feeding him a Cure Serious over a Cure Lite is routinely trivial. Either way he gets up and starts casting cures.
Jirix lived surrounded by clerics who could cure him. He was quite possibly one himself. There is just no serious reason for him to be carrying around expensive Cure Serious potions when a cheap Cure Lite will satisfy his needs.

You're forgetting one thing: Any cleric available to Jirix (including possibly himself) is Evil, hence channels negative energy, hence cannot spontaneously cast Cure spells (and they're not going to have the Healing domain, either). Yes, they can and will prepare a few Cures, but every Cure Serious Wounds prepared means one less Searing Light/Protection from Energy/Blindness/Deafness/Dispel Magic/etc. is available; and even if you (or someone nearby) had a CSW prepared that day, when everything goes pear-shaped, it may get used up pretty quickly, and not necessarily on you. Best to have your own private stock on hand.
Okay, two things: There's also the whole "looted city" factor to consider. The best loot rises to (or near) the top, and it's not like Xykon's gonna want Cure potions. (And before anyone asks "Why does a city full of Paladins need Cure potions?", remember that the Sapphire Guard was supposedly a big secret.)

[SadisticFishing]

It's one of those moments that the main character is shot. In the heart. And you're to blame. And then he survives... wait, what?

I'm willing to gloss over it, as the rest of the story is great, but it's similar to the Dorukan/Xykon fight, except backwards...

Spoiler

Show

Xykon uses Life Drain. Repeatedly. Dorukan stops responding after the first - this doesn't make sense within the framework of D&D - and any person, real or imagined, would RESPOND to someone sucking the very life out of them

Anyways... Three potions, still looking INCREDIBLY beatup, just having been choked by someone strong enough to carry a (very large) rock earlier.. runs off, and gets hit by the big bad's ROCKET LAUNCHER. And survives. Doesn't.. click for me.

[JeptCloak]

It's one of those moments that the main character is shot. In the heart. And you're to blame. And then he survives... wait, what?

I'm willing to gloss over it, as the rest of the story is great, but it's similar to the Dorukan/Xykon fight, except backwards...

Spoiler

Show

Xykon uses Life Drain. Repeatedly. Dorukan stops responding after the first - this doesn't make sense within the framework of D&D - and any person, real or imagined, would RESPOND to someone sucking the very life out of them

Anyways... Three potions, still looking INCREDIBLY beatup, just having been choked by someone strong enough to carry a (very large) rock earlier.. runs off, and gets hit by the big bad's ROCKET LAUNCHER. And survives. Doesn't.. click for me.

Can someone clarify in a detailed manner if Xykon actually legitimately won that fight v.s Dorukan? Because I've been getting alot of conflicting stories... does he really deserve credit, or was it just plot stupidity?

[abishur]

It's one of those moments that the main character is shot. In the heart. And you're to blame. And then he survives... wait, what?

Psh, you give love a bad name.

Anyways... Three potions, still looking INCREDIBLY beatup, just having been choked by someone strong enough to carry a (very large) rock earlier.. runs off, and gets hit by the big bad's ROCKET LAUNCHER. And survives. Doesn't.. click for me.

Well the missing piece of data is simple: They were NOT hit. Here's some examples of how Rich has depicted being hit.

656 complete hit in the 4th pannel, smoking in the fifth with blanked skin

and

442 hit in second to last panel, blanked skin in the last

Now check out 658

Please pay special attention both to the fact that no fireball physically hit them as well as the complete lack of physical damage that Rich has used to describe a sucessful hit. It may seem improbable, but thems the fact. Xy missed and Gredo shot first

Seriously though, it's not that they got hit by big bad rocket launcher, it's that the rocket landed next to them and they got thrown by the blast. Damaging? Yes. Fatal? Nope. And as Ethan would point out, not dying from a blast is cinematic gold

[factotum]

OK, this is my assessment of that fight in SoD:

Spoiler

Show

Round 1: Xykon hits Dorukan with an Energy Drain. Because Dorukan is a "real" person and not a character sheet, it hurts him enough to make him drop his staff and fail to respond.
Round 2: Xykon Energy Drains Dorukan. Dorukan responds with a fire spell of some sort.
Round 3: Xykon Energy Drain. This time Dorukan loses his Flight spell (so he's already down into the low spell levels) and starts falling.
Round 4: Xykon Energy Drain. Dorukan hits the ground.
Round 5: Xykon Energy Drain. Dorukan dies.

In short, while this wouldn't happen this way in a game of D&D, it works if you assume these are real people who have real reactions to nasty things happening to them, rather than bundles of hit points who don't even notice until they go negative.

[abishur]

In short, while this wouldn't happen this way in a game of D&D, it works if you assume these are real people who have real reactions to nasty things happening to them, rather than bundles of hit points who don't even notice until they go negative.

Blasphamy! Letting this comic act like the people were real people. Get out! Get out now!

[JeptCloak]

OK, this is my assessment of that fight in SoD:

Spoiler

Show

Round 1: Xykon hits Dorukan with an Energy Drain. Because Dorukan is a "real" person and not a character sheet, it hurts him enough to make him drop his staff and fail to respond.
Round 2: Xykon Energy Drains Dorukan. Dorukan responds with a fire spell of some sort.
Round 3: Xykon Energy Drain. This time Dorukan loses his Flight spell (so he's already down into the low spell levels) and starts falling.
Round 4: Xykon Energy Drain. Dorukan hits the ground.
Round 5: Xykon Energy Drain. Dorukan dies.

In short, while this wouldn't happen this way in a game of D&D, it works if you assume these are real people who have real reactions to nasty things happening to them, rather than bundles of hit points who don't even notice until they go negative.

This is the fight people used to make xykon out as awesome? wow. That's almost as bad as V's screwover... Dorukan doesn't even try to teleport away... and Xykon gets 5 turns to one... ugh. I thought Dorukan had done alot more than that... So in fact there is no evidence Xykon outranked Dorukan, and in any vaguely fair scenario Dorukan should have won.

[Selene]

Actually, he tells us that the author is wrong frequently, especially when the alternative involves conceding a point. I'm pretty sure the Giant pays it no mind.

It's a puzzling way to view literature, isn't it?

He's told Rich to his face (er, screen?), too. (e.g. his 'Rich failed at his attempt to turn Miko into Sam and Diane from Cheers' debate.) And yes, it is extremely puzzling to me.

Gah!!! Spoiler!! Spoiler!!

Oh well, at least now I don't need to find another copy so I can finish reading the book.

Sorry. Didn't realize I had to spoiler a 30 year old book. Fixed it now. It's quite good right up until the ridiculous end, though. Really.

^^You know, Rich actually creating a special account for Xykon here on the forums (complete with a special avatar and a fancy title like Badass in the Playground) and use it to do just that would be awesome beyond words.

Agreed! I would love to see that!

If O-Chul had slipped on a banana peel halfway down the corridor it would have been ok?

Psh, you give love a bad name.

again.

[abishur]

He's told Rich to his face (er, screen?), too. (e.g. his 'Rich failed at his attempt to turn Miko into Sam and Diane from Cheers' debate.) And yes, it is extremely puzzling to me.


again.

I was wondering if anyone would get the reference but then again it has been made somewhat re-popular by American Idol (bleh)

The author is wrong mentality reminds me of how Sigmund Fraud (yes, I know it's mispelled, I did it on purpose... twice ) was so assured that his views of his patient of extreme abuse of the physical kind that he actually wrote "Anytime the patient says no, it's really just a subconscious yes"

Also it reminds me of the fat comic book guy from the Simpsons, "V and O-chu living? Worst plot line ever"

[SadisticFishing]

This is the fight people used to make xykon out as awesome? wow. That's almost as bad as V's screwover... Dorukan doesn't even try to teleport away... and Xykon gets 5 turns to one... ugh. I thought Dorukan had done alot more than that... So in fact there is no evidence Xykon outranked Dorukan, and in any vaguely fair scenario Dorukan should have won.

Well said, sir. REAL people aren't level 21+, start off a fight by summoning a gate to holy realms, nor are they high level spellcasters. This wasn't a real fight, this was a tired old man getting his ass kicked by someone with standard actions.

He's a real person, yes, but an adventurer, a powerful one at that. He should have been able to respond to the Energy Drains. Otherwise his crazy fire spell beam cannon thing should have torched Xykon instantly. This "Real people" thing has to go both ways.

[Hurkyl]

in any vaguely fair scenario Dorukan should have won.

Why would there be a vaguely fair scenario? Xykon was playing to win, not to have an honorable duel been two willing participants.

[Hurkyl]

Dorukan doesn't even try to teleport away...

Dorukan is a wizard who has spent a large part of his life preparing to defend one specific location, for the purpose of protecting all of reality from being unmade... and you want him to flee at the first sign of an enemy? This is especially problematic, because the very defenses he constructed (cloister) prevent him from returning in a timely fashion.

[rxmd]

[wall of text]

I find it ironic that right after I quote Popper on drowning your fellow human beings in a sea of words, you go and post a 2633-word essay, on a topic for which there is a separate thread, and whose sole content is to show that you're willing to go to great lengths in order not to concede a point.

Try to be a bit more concise next time, you're doing your fellow readers a favour. The Gettysburg Address has 272 words. Guess which one is more expressive.

[SadisticFishing]

Why would there be a vaguely fair scenario? Xykon was playing to win, not to have an honorable duel been two willing participants.

He means vaguely fair in that Dorukan actually RESPONDED to anything and was portrayed as a human high level wizard, and not an.. idiot unable to respond to anything.

[hamishspence]

If Xykon had gotten lucky with the first (maximum 8 levels drained) Dorukan would have been at a massive disadvantage.

[SadisticFishing]

If Xykon had gotten lucky with the first (maximum 8 levels drained) Dorukan would have been at a massive disadvantage.

He would have lost 8 spells, and taken a few other hits.

He still could have RESPONDED. With anything.

[JeptCloak]

If Xykon had gotten lucky with the first (maximum 8 levels drained) Dorukan would have been at a massive disadvantage.

It's beginning to look nothing like that... I mean, Dorukan wanted to use Epic Magic to defend the gates back when he was a young hero... he must have been a substantially high level Epic... 8 spells is nothing... he hould have killed Xykon.

[Omegonthesane]

It's beginning to look nothing like that... I mean, Dorukan wanted to use Epic Magic to defend the gates back when he was a young hero... he must have been a substantially high level Epic... 8 spells is nothing... he hould have killed Xykon.

8 spells is Dorukan's entire Epic repertoire and a large chunk of his 9th level spells, assuming he was on full when he got hit. Recall that an Epic wizard has one Epic spell for every 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and that no one can have more ranks in a skill than their CL + 3. Thus a L21 Wizzard has max 24 ranks Knowledge (arcana) and only 2 Epic spells.

Dorukan would literally have to be level 77 to consider having a full 8 Epic slots per day, in which case there really would be no question of his victory.

[JeptCloak]

8 spells is Dorukan's entire Epic repertoire and a large chunk of his 9th level spells, assuming he was on full when he got hit. Recall that an Epic wizard has one Epic spell for every 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and that no one can have more ranks in a skill than their CL + 3. Thus a L21 Wizzard has max 24 ranks Knowledge (arcana) and only 2 Epic spells.

Dorukan would literally have to be level 77 to consider having a full 8 Epic slots per day, in which case there really would be no question of his victory.

Yeh, but 8 spells is the minimum he'd have for 9th and 8th lvl slots, and that's assuming no 10th lvl slots or higher, which for an epic Mage is absurd... Dorukan should have had heaps left.

[Selene]

d'oh. wrong thread

[Shatteredtower]

He's told Rich to his face (er, screen?), too. (e.g. his 'Rich failed at his attempt to turn Miko into Sam and Diane from Cheers' debate.) And yes, it is extremely puzzling to me.

...I stand corrected. Oh, dear. Thank you for the information.

[Selene]

I was wondering if anyone would get the reference but then again it has been made somewhat re-popular by American Idol (bleh)

Oh, I don't watch American Idol. I'm just old. LOL.

The author is wrong mentality reminds me of how Sigmund Fraud (yes, I know it's mispelled, I did it on purpose... twice ) was so assured that his views of his patient of extreme abuse of the physical kind that he actually wrote "Anytime the patient says no, it's really just a subconscious yes"

Also it reminds me of the fat comic book guy from the Simpsons, "V and O-chu living? Worst plot line ever"

Aha! The comic book guy walks among us in disguise!

He means vaguely fair in that Dorukan actually RESPONDED to anything and was portrayed as a human high level wizard, and not an.. idiot unable to respond to anything.

Dorukan just spent how many years looking for Lirian? And now he's confronted not only with her zombie body which is about to be devoured, but also with a maniac who has been holding her soul hostage in a gemstone for all this time. Perhaps he's not thinking clearly?

...I stand corrected. Oh, dear. Thank you for the information.

Welcome.

[multilis]

The author can "homebrew" a rule that anyone getting energy drain may need a save to prevent from acting stupid/stunned.

We are dealing with a comic where a 1 in 100 chance is unlikely but a 1 in 1,000,000 chance is almost certain at times. (Eg imp summoning super foe)

[David Argall]

Cure Light is functionally useless once you're of a decent level. So fine, you use a Cure Light and get your cleric up to 3 HP. And what happens then? He gets hit by the Magic Missile (or worse) that is being thrown around by the other magic users targeting your little group, or hit by the archer in the back using Many Shot, or is caught in the AoE of Fireball, and.... whoops! he's down again, not being able to have cast a single Heal, on himself or anyone else.

I don't know what kind of vacuum you think the party is in where the cleric is somehow going to be free to immediately cast Cures or Heals on himself, so that he can be fit enough to heal the rest of the party (half of which may have died in the two rounds the cleric spent drinking the pointless Cure Light, and then healing himself).

The smart move would indeed be to feed him a Cure Serious so that he can afford to take a couple of hits,

The problem is that he can't take a couple of hits after a Cure Serious. Whether he got a Cure Lite or Serious, if the enemy aims and hits, he is going down again.
Your first level cleric gets fed a CL, and the enemy archer hits and sends him down again, or the enemy mage hits with MM. Your 5th level cleric gets that CS, and the enemy archer hits him with Rapid shot [not manyshot. That is a distinctly lousy feat for combat. It is pretty much only useful as an access feat.] two arrows from his Mighty magic bow and puts him down, or the mage maybe drops him with a fireball. Quite simply the extra curing doesn't help. If the cleric is hit again, he is going down.
It is up to the party barbarian or fighter[s] to be charging to the attack to make sure they don't target the cleric [or that that is their last mistake].

I really wonder what kind of lackadaisical, minimum-threat universe you're playing in...

Living Greyhawk, which has to be considered the standard for 3.5.

[randomy]

Dorukan doesn't even try to teleport away.

but dorukan knows that xykon has his beloved in a soul bind so he has to destroy the stone