Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

[Alteran]

Electric stun weapons are either one-shot weapons or melee weapons. You could miss with your one shot, they could be wearing a heavy coat or other protective clothing, or they might just not be as thoroughly impaired as they should be. If that happens and they're armed...well, you're going to be in a lot of trouble.

If it's a melee weapon, then it could be very dangerous to use. It's not a good idea to charge an invader who might not share your qualms about killing, especially when their lethal weapon might have superior range to yours.

[SDF]

A modern air taser uses a shaped charge mechanism that causes an involuntary disruption of the CNS. It doesn't matter how big you are, or what drugs you are on. You are going down and you can't do ANYTHING after you've been hit. Shaped pulse also ensures that regardless of thick clothing it's still going to work. All claims to the contrary I've ever heard stem from a lack of familiarity and understanding of the weapon.

[THAC0]

You know what electricity does to a body, right? High pain tolerance isn't going to help you if you can't move because your muscles are constantly taught.

Assuming that you can get them with it in the first place.

Personally, I've never experienced anything along those lines. The instructor in my defense class has, so I'm taking his word on its effectiveness.

[Stormthorn]

they can still fire the gun before they go down and if they're wearing a heavy coat the taser won't even hit them.

And if their wearing a bulletproof vest the bullet wont hit him. And if he is driving a tank....

Besides, philosophically speaking, what is the difference between defending yourself with force and having someone else (i.e. the police) do it for you? If the offender is going to respond in a manner that requires you to shoot him, he will likely respond to the police in a manner that requires them to shoot him.

Philosophicly speaking a guess not much. But i dont want to deal with possible criminal liability and being shot at.

There's plenty other less-lethal options available. RAID works pretty well, and is already available in most dwellings; same with Baseball bats or 4D cell mag lights.

Yea. I have a cane for that. It even fits int he closet with me, but if he tries to come in the closet after me im probably upgrading him from "threat to property" to "Threat to life" in which case i now have my attacker in an inclosed space with me and my knives.

[billtodamax]

I'm pretty sure I mean taser. They're the ones that fire two metallic thingies attached to wires, right?
@Kyuubi: Actually I'm pretty sure they couldn't. Electricity tends to move pretty fast.

Oh hey, and apparently it doesn't matter if they're wearing thick clothing.

[Mystic Muse]

And if their wearing a bulletproof vest the bullet wont hit him. And if he is driving a tank....

If he's driving a tank you run away,

also they're more likely to have a heavy coat than to have a bulletproof vest. also a vest leaves more spots open to hit and kill. another thing to keep in mind is they can sue you for tazing them. they may not win but others have won and so could they. it's hard to convict somebody when you have a bullet in your brain. If the police find a gun on the person and you can prove that you don't know the person it's going to be almost impossible to sue you.

as others have said. either hide or co-operate or be willing to kill. it's nice to be an idealist but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

[billtodamax]

If someone manages to sue me for tasing them when they come into my house with a gun, I am going to hold a funeral for common sense.

[Mystic Muse]

If someone manages to sue me for tasing them when they come into my house with a gun, I am going to hold a funeral for common sense.

you should be holding a funeral for common sense already. There are so many beyond stupid things happening nowadays it's not even funny.

[SDF]

The mentality that it is better to shoot and kill a person(even a criminal) than incapacitate them with a less than lethal weapon because you might somehow get sued strikes me as insanity.

[Erloas]

Tasers work on everyone. They are just way more expensive than a gun.

Actually they don't always work on people that are drugged up. They also only work with a good direct hit, if only one lead makes good contact they are useless.

My brother asked a cop about it when they went to investigate a business that was broken into while he was at work next door. (it was 10-12 at night) The cop had a taser out instead of a gun. He said the first time he saw them used was against someone that was loaded on meth or something similiar and the taser didn't even really affect them. He said he was very skeptical of them after that, but has since saw them used in a lot of other situations where they worked fine.
One thing about a cop using a taser though is that there are generally a few cops around, and some of them have normal guns. Backup isn't something most people will have in a home invasion sort of situation.

Theft as a capital offense? Holy spoon, I hope you don't own firearms.

I own a .50cal black powder rifle and a single barrel break action 12gauge that was very old before I was born. Neither of which would do any good in these sorts of situations.
However I wouldn't have any issue with shooting someone that broke into my house, some punk 16 year old or not. Its not like there aren't 6 billion other people in the world to take their place, 99.9% of which would never even think about breaking into someone elses house as an option, let alone actually do it. I'm sure there are some exceptions to kids breaking into houses then going on to do better things, but most often the case is they go from breaking into houses when they are young to breaking into more houses when they are older and doing all sorts of other worse stuff as well.

[Mystic Muse]

if they're willing to kill you then yes it's better to kill them first. if you miss or the distraction shots don't do anything and they have a gun what do you think is going to happen? They are going to end your life because you weren't willing to protect yourself.

[billtodamax]

Okay... I'm going to stop now before I end up insulting someone. You all presumably know my views by now.

[Jack Squat]

A modern air taser uses a shaped charge mechanism that causes an involuntary disruption of the CNS. It doesn't matter how big you are, or what drugs you are on. You are going down and you can't do ANYTHING after you've been hit. Shaped pulse also ensures that regardless of thick clothing it's still going to work. All claims to the contrary I've ever heard stem from a lack of familiarity and understanding of the weapon.

It's entirely possible to power through a taser hit. It's not common, but it has happened, quite possibly reliant on where you're hit (COM is going to be much harder -ok, impossible- to fight, but arm or leg could, since it's just completing a circuit, not running course through your entire system). Also, the new one can only punch through up to an inch of clothing, which I'm positive depends on weave. While you're not likely to come up to someone padded enough, it's not impossible; especially not at 2AM in the middle of winter.

My main concern with tasers however is they're effectively one shot. In a stressful situation your accuracy goes to hell (2-4x worse). Civilians only get the 15ft length on top of that, so if you miss, you don't have time to do much anything before they're on top of you. And what if there's more than one person? You're not guaranteed they'll run off when they see their friend drop.


EDIT:

The mentality that it is better to shoot and kill a person(even a criminal) than incapacitate them with a less than lethal weapon because you might somehow get sued strikes me as insanity.

Yeah, even if you kill someone, you can still be sued by their family for funeral costs, emotional distress, etc. Probably won't win, but you can still be sued -just like if you wound them (though you have a weaker case if you did something you knew would only cause significant harm without killing, such as rock salt, wax, flares, or other "specialty" ammo.)

[Mystic Muse]

Okay... I'm going to stop now before I end up insulting someone. You all presumably know my views by now.

we can continue this discussion through PM if you want. or AIM if you have it. however I kind of doubt either of us will change the other's mind.

[billtodamax]

No, I think it's just best if I left it alone for a while and calmed down.

[Pyrian]

I think Kyuubi is having a subtly different discussion than everyone else. Kyuubi's talking about the situation where you already know the intruder is trying to kill you. That's a pretty small subset of the situations described. The nightmare scenario isn't necessarily the murderer out for your blood. The nightmare scenario is your own daughter coming over in the middle of the night because she forget her own house keys and knows you have a spare. Bang!

[Zeful]

The mentality that it is better to shoot and kill a person(even a criminal) than incapacitate them with a less than lethal weapon because you might somehow get sued strikes me as insanity.

Welcome to Capitalism!

Sarcasm aside, robbers have won court cases for being injured whilst robbing someone. If the criminal's particularly nasty, it can be a suit for everything you have and more. Meaning by exercising mercy, you could be thrown out on the street.

[Mystic Muse]

I think Kyuubi is having a subtly different discussion than everyone else. Kyuubi's talking about the situation where you already know the intruder is trying to kill you. That's a pretty small subset of the situations described. The nightmare scenario isn't necessarily the murderer out for your blood. The nightmare scenario is your own daughter coming over in the middle of the night because she forget her own house keys and knows you have a spare. Bang!

that's exactly what I'm saying Pyrian.

sorry. guess that means I de-railed the thread.

[Anuan]

Tasers -can- be ineffective. In some cases they can even be lethal. Imagine thinking you're oh-so-innocent and nice cause you tried the 'non-lethal' method and the guy died. You'd be a lot more messed up.

That being said, most robberies (in my country, at least) don't involve the burglar being armed, especially if it's just some **** of a kid, or if they're stupid enough to be bunglers and leave scuff-marks all over your door. Twice. So, non-lethal but restraining force.

Like a very large dog.
Or, if you happen to be a martial artist, whatever martial art(s) you practice.
Also, I know from experience that holding a very intimidating weapon can scare a burglar off. It was a trident, in my case. He didn't come back, nor did any of his mates.

A baseball bat or sjambok or similar is good, too. I would have no qualms against beating an invader into submission with my bare hands or a blunt weapon.

[Jack Squat]

I think Kyuubi is having a subtly different discussion than everyone else. Kyuubi's talking about the situation where you already know the intruder is trying to kill you. That's a pretty small subset of the situations described. The nightmare scenario isn't necessarily the murderer out for your blood. The nightmare scenario is your own daughter coming over in the middle of the night because she forget her own house keys and knows you have a spare. Bang!

That's why you identify targets and keep your finger off the trigger until you have. If everyone did that, accidental/negligent shootings would be much, much rarer. Seriously, everyone, if you've got a gun for self defense, strap a light to it, and bounce the light off the ground when walking around. A good flashlight will even bounce light off of carpet. This way you can see who it is, and still have the advantage of them not knowing exactly where you are (shooting at the light).

[Pyrian]

Right; in most cases an ordinary burglar doesn't want a confrontation at all and can be chased off fairly easily. I think Keld is arguing that he's unwilling to risk the chance that the intruder will simply open fire immediately. I do also think there's a level of bloodthirstiness at which you start risking "friendly fire" - mistaking your own family members for an intruder. Also, all of this ignores the fact that having a gun in the house in general tends to make domestic violence turn lethal much more quickly than it otherwise might (nevermind stupid accidents, which I'm sure we can all agree ought to be avoided).

[lvl 1 fighter]

My apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but if someone was trying to kick down your door at 1AM, why did you wait until later that day to call the police? Wouldn't it have made more sense to call them right then in the hopes they'd show up and catch them?

Good question. There were a number of reasons, presented here in no particular order.

1) They didn't actually get in, so it wasn't a burglary, there wasn't any stolen property, and no one got injured. So about 5-10 minutes after the fact there wasn't an emergency, so no need to have the police come over in the middle of the night. I called in the afternoon and reported the crime.

2) I didn't even think to call the police at the time. The shock of the situation put me on autopilot, referring me to past experiences when I felt my life threatened, and my behaviors that I learned in those situations. In those situations calling the police was not an option, and when I get threatened and feel that way it doesn't even cross my mind.

[Hell Puppi]

The nightmare scenario is your own daughter coming over in the middle of the night because she forget her own house keys and knows you have a spare. Bang!

A good thing that I heard is to carry a small flashlight in one hand and a handgun in the other, that way you can visually identify who is breaking in and what threat they pose.
I heard of one man who had a neighbor's son (the kid was mentally handicapped) break into his house and stand in the hallway. The man was able to identify the person. I've had cases where someone walked into my apartment and left immediately because they thought it was someone else's place. Mistakes happen.
By carrying the handgun you can also essentially tell a robber "Hai, I has lethal force" and hopefully resolve the problem by getting them to back off and leave.
I don't advocate having a gun unless you know how to fire it, how to hit a target and know how to clean and maintain it. You also have to be calm and level-headed about things. You don't blow someone away because they made a mistake but you also take every precaution necessary to make sure your home and family are protected should the infamous masked villain arrive.
*shrugs* That's how I see it.

[SDF]

Actually they don't always work on people that are drugged up. They also only work with a good direct hit, if only one lead makes good contact they are useless.

My brother asked a cop about it when they went to investigate a business that was broken into while he was at work next door. (it was 10-12 at night) The cop had a taser out instead of a gun. He said the first time he saw them used was against someone that was loaded on meth or something similiar and the taser didn't even really affect them. He said he was very skeptical of them after that, but has since saw them used in a lot of other situations where they worked fine.
One thing about a cop using a taser though is that there are generally a few cops around, and some of them have normal guns. Backup isn't something most people will have in a home invasion sort of situation.

If he was using a new model taser, I don't see how.

Most of this speculative failure applies just as much, or more to firearms. What if the gun jams? What if an unarmed burglar gets to you before you can get a shot off, and now he has a gun? An armed robber may or may not use whatever he is carrying, but pull a gun on him and it quickly turns into a fight to the death scenario. None of these situations are likely to happen, but they are possibilities all the same. Adding a firearm into most situations rarely results in a better outcome.

If the tc really wants to have a shotgun as a possibility go out to the range and try different loads to see what you are most comfortable with, and weight that against practical over penetration possibilities. Don't take the word of what you read here. If you have a gun lying around that you don't know how, or never practice with you have no business bringing it to bear in a home invasion situation, and it most likely will make things worse.

[nothingclever]

If he was using a new model taser, I don't see how.

Sounds like you just believe everything the taser website says.
Surely a website called taser.com that sells tasers isn't the slightest bit biased!

[Jack Squat]

Right; in most cases an ordinary burglar doesn't want a confrontation at all and can be chased off fairly easily.

Yes, and in this case, with the would-be intruders running at the falling of a screen; they're obviously looking for an empty house and are very jumpy. With them, Angry Nekkid Man would be a good defense, but you don't know what type of people are coming in, so it's better to be over prepared. You don't have to shoot.

I think Keld is arguing that he's unwilling to risk the chance that the intruder will simply open fire immediately. I do also think there's a level of bloodthirstiness at which you start risking "friendly fire" - mistaking your own family members for an intruder.

Training should solve both of these. I do recommend anyone who keeps a gun to do some sort of training - even if it's as low-budget as calling over a friend and going through with a $9 airsoft gun from Wal Mart. Practice different situations ad nauseum, and you should be able to react atleast somewhat responsibly. Though as I said before, just keeping your finger off the trigger solves most of these. A lot of times your fingers will twitch when surprised. When you've got a finger on the trigger and safety off, that's not always a good thing.

Also, all of this ignores the fact that having a gun in the house in general tends to make domestic violence turn lethal much more quickly than it otherwise might (nevermind stupid accidents, which I'm sure we can all agree ought to be avoided).

This isn't the argument. The thread's about home defense, not whether a gun should be in every household. However, I'll point out that a kitchen knife or hammer can make domestic violence lethal much more quickly than if they weren't there. Should we remove these from households?



EDIT:

Most of this speculative failure applies just as much, or more to firearms. What if the gun jams?

You clear it and continue. Practice malfunction drills.

What if an unarmed burglar gets to you before you can get a shot off, and now he has a gun?

Why'd an unarmed burglar charge you when you had a gun pointed at them? Why'd didn't you fire until he stops or it's dry? Why did you give it up without a fight? There's a lot that has to go wrong for this to happen.

An armed robber may or may not use whatever he is carrying, but pull a gun on him and it quickly turns into a fight to the death scenario.

What happens if you pull a taser on him? Or pepper spray? Does it come out any better?

None of these situations are likely to happen, but they are possibilities all the same. Adding a firearm into most situations rarely results in a better outcome.

I'd argue that, so long as the person is trained in their use. If they're not, there probably not going to train enough with anything else to make it effective.

If the tc really wants to have a shotgun as a possibility go out to the range and try different loads to see what you are most comfortable with, and weight that against practical over penetration possibilities. Don't take the word of what you read here. If you have a gun lying around that you don't know how, or never practice with you have no business bringing it to bear in a home invasion situation, and it most likely will make things worse.

I'll agree. The OP said that over penetration's not an issue, due to stone walls, and that's what I'm going off of. If one was in an apartment complex, I'd advise against it for obvious reasons (drywall doesn't stop shot as well as, brick or stone).

[Erloas]

Most of this speculative failure applies just as much, or more to firearms. What if the gun jams? What if an unarmed burglar gets to you before you can get a shot off, and now he has a gun?

A well maintained gun will almost never jam, that is the point of maintaining them. Dud rounds do happen, but how often depends a lot on what quality of bullets, I've seen it happen with .22 rounds a fair amount, and very rarily with my brothers AK-47 (with the cheapest rounds we could find to target practice), but not with any of the other rounds I've seen shot much.

The biggest difference between most guns and a taser of any sort is that a taser is a 1 shot weapon. It is very easy to miss a shot, especially with something you don't shoot a lot, and I bet almost no one gets to practice much with a taser. Its not like you can really take it down to your local range and practice.
Any sort of confrontation around a door, which is very likely to happen in these situations, means that there are a lot of potential obsticales between you and what you are shooting at. Glancing off a door frame will make a taser useless, but won't with something like a shotgun or a lot of handguns. You also have more then 1 shot, most handguns have about 6-12 rounds.
Which is also why I would never think about using either of my guns for self defense, because they are both 1 shot (the black powder is also way too slow to load and not really practical to keep loaded) and even with a fair amount of practice I don't really trust 1 shot to be enough.

[Erts]

Generally, people who break into homes are easily scared off. Really. Most robbers run away as soon as they know someone else is in the house, and grab the first valuable thing they see, or else dogs and alarm systems wouldn't be as a effective. (Yes, the police get there in minutes, but how long does it take to grab something valuable and run?)
This all depends on what area one is living in as well. In the suburbs, it is probably a bad idea to immediately engage in a gun battle when someone bursts into your home (they are not expecting immediate lethal force, or else they would not do this.)
These neighbors, what are they like? That is important on how you should act.

[SDF]

Sounds like you just believe everything the taser website says.
Surely a website called taser.com that sells tasers isn't the slightest bit biased!

Yes, clearly thats what I'm doing. I'm ready to pound my head against the keyboard trying to explain how the wombating thing works. I'm not making outrageous claims, or even endorsing it... If you shoot someone not dressed like Ralphie Parker with a taser they go down, even on (wow) substances. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

[Alteran]

The nightmare scenario is your own daughter coming over in the middle of the night because she forget her own house keys and knows you have a spare. Bang!

Presumably your daughter would knock on the door instead of kicking it down. However, you should still be sure to get a look at a target before you shoot it, the suggestion of a light is a good one.