Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?

[GoC]

Renegade Paladin: I've said this before, I'll say it again:
Star Wars vs. Star Trek is impossible because both are inconsistent in very important areas. A vs. thread is founded on the premises that canon is true. And if canon is inconsistent then no conclusion can be reached.

It's amazing how people just don't seem to get this.

Heh. That was fun. We should do that again some time.

Ah yeah, I should make another one of those sometime.

[AstralFire]

Renegade Paladin: I've said this before, I'll say it again:
Star Wars vs. Star Trek is impossible because both are inconsistent in very important areas. A vs. thread is founded on the premises that canon is true. And if canon is inconsistent then no conclusion can be reached.

It's amazing how people just don't seem to get this.

I said this in the Halo versus Metroid thread and no one listened to me. :(

[Kato]

I stumbled upon a few weird encounters...
Haruhi Suzumiya vs Harry Potter
or
TTGL vs Gundam (not sure which one but thats one sided anyway)

On an hardly related note, i wonder about Solid Snake vs a Terminator

[hamishspence]

one of the things that puzzles me is claims on places like stardestroyer.net that "phasers wouldn't do anything to stormtrooper armour"

When we've seen ordinary hand phasers vaporise large quantities of rock (up to 650 cubic meters odd) in one shot (TNG, according to Memory Alpha) such claims seem perhaps a little of an exaggeration.

[GoC]

one of the things that puzzles me is claims on places like stardestroyer.net that "phasers wouldn't do anything to stormtrooper armour"

When we've seen ordinary hand phasers vaporise large quantities of rock (up to 650 cubic meters odd) in one shot (TNG, according to Memory Alpha) such claims seem perhaps a little of an exaggeration.

Stormtrooper armor is not made up of the normal protons+neutrons+electrons hence why it's so strong.

[hamishspence]

So far, the most damage I've seen from a blaster in the movies is in ESB where medium-sized holes are blown in the wall.

I also see blaster bolts going through stormtrooper armour.

And leaving small to medium sized holes in Star Wars characters.

In Trek, I see phasers (at least on sustained fire) blowing up a big rocky outcrop in The Cage (original series). And completely disintegrating various characters.

Conclusion- hand phasers, at least, are generally portrayed, on screen, as a bit more damaging than blasters.

Which is not to say that trek tech is more advanced overall (generally, it isn't) but there are a few areas where, at least on screen, it appears to better than some people give it credit for being.

Ironically, it seems that the original series is the one with the tech being used fairly well- accurate orbital bombardment, powerful hand weapons, etc.

[JaxGaret]

The quick answer is that wherever stardestroyer.net is getting their numbers and assumptions from is everywhere but how things actually work on-screen in SW and ST.

[hamishspence]

yes- the tone taken on some of these sites is rather less polite than here.

Though I was focusing mainly on stardestroyer.net- maybe there are trek sites equally aggressive.

A point that doesn't seem to get mentioned much- Star wars has a lot more at its disposal- an empire of a million-odd worlds compared to a few thousand- ships a mile or more long compared to 300 m in the original series.

Maybe Star Wars ships tend to perform better in the fiction because they are generally a whole lot bigger, but Star Trek ones perform quite well considering the smaller size?

The book by Lawrence M. Krauss The Physics of Star Trek provided some interesting figures for the actual amount of energy, and speed of data transfer, involved in the transporter- to dematerialize anything person-sized, requires energy equivalent to 100 one megaton bombs, to move it at near-light speed, requires 10 times this much, or "power equal to 10000 times the total power consumed on the entire Earth today"

The amount of information involved is "in excess of 1025 kilobytes of information." And this needs to be downloaded in a matter of seconds.

Suddenly the transporter seems rather more impressive.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I'm eleven pages late, but there is a really simple answer to the OP.

Any versus argument is a bad versus argument. They're stupid. They're pointless.

[LurkerInPlayground]

To be fair, calcium IS a metal. But still... claiming that.... heheheh... that's quite a stretch!

Well technically, it's calcium phosphate, and therefore closer to being a salt than a pure metal.

[Talkkno]

Renegade Paladin: I've said this before, I'll say it again:
Star Wars vs. Star Trek is impossible because both are inconsistent in very important areas. A vs. thread is founded on the premises that canon is true. And if canon is inconsistent then no conclusion can be reached.

Then shouldn't it on the basis on what is most observed then? For you have not exactly given any examples. And you keep disputing Mike Wong's calcs, yet you have yet to bring calcs to refute them.

[JaxGaret]

Any versus argument is a bad versus argument. They're stupid. They're pointless.

Your post is stupid and pointless, and yet you made it. Why*?

Vs. threads can be fun, even if they are stupid and pointless, just like most entertainment.

* Note that I'm not saying that you should not have made this post, I was merely making the point that people do "stupid and pointless" things all the time, for various reasons.

[Selrahc]

I'm eleven pages late, but there is a really simple answer to the OP.

Any versus argument is a bad versus argument. They're stupid. They're pointless.

Quite right old chap. Don't even know why I'm here really. I should be using my leisure time to increase the greatness of humanity by helping with public works.

[Sliver_Slave]

I heard someone claim that the covenant would beat the combine because they had scarabs. I don't know were they made this claim, but this was their entire argument. But the covenant have scarabs, there's no way the combine could win went every post he made.

[factotum]

Stormtrooper armor is not made up of the normal protons+neutrons+electrons hence why it's so strong.

And that would be why a bunch of teddy bears throwing rocks can actually hurt a Stormtrooper, then?

As far as inconsistency goes, I always loved the bit in the first film where Obi-Wan comments that the blast points on the Jawa crawler were "too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.". Yet when the stormtroopers attack the Falcon in the Mos Eisley hangar they aren't even capable of shooting an unarmoured Han Solo from a distance of maybe twenty yards. Mind you, given that the "updated" versions of the movie have an experienced bounty hunter miss Solo from across a table, guess he must have some sort of blaster repellent field or something...

[WristWatchMafia]

As far as inconsistency goes, I always loved the bit in the first film where Obi-Wan comments that the blast points on the Jawa crawler were "too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.". Yet when the stormtroopers attack the Falcon in the Mos Eisley hangar they aren't even capable of shooting an unarmoured Han Solo from a distance of maybe twenty yards.

I think it's just blasters are absolutely terrible weapons.
The only reason to use them (personal shields) doesn't even exist anymore, so I don't know why the stormtroopers don't just upgrade to m4s or some Star Wars-esque equivalent.

Renegade Paladin: I've said this before, I'll say it again:
Star Wars vs. Star Trek is impossible because both are inconsistent in very important areas. A vs. thread is founded on the premises that canon is true. And if canon is inconsistent then no conclusion can be reached.

Exactly. Rock out true believer!

The most crazy verus thing though....mmhmm.....probably any knight-vs-Samurai debate. The pro-Samurai side usually presents some pretty terrible arguments like a katana can cut through plate armor.

[hamishspence]

Yet when the stormtroopers attack the Falcon in the Mos Eisley hangar they aren't even capable of shooting an unarmoured Han Solo from a distance of maybe twenty yards.

the most common excuse for their lack of accuracy on the Death Star is "they were ordered to ensure that Luke and company would escape" despite lack of support for this in the novelization and Death Star novel- Leia's comments about the ease of their escape seem to be more about the Tie fighters.

And it still doesn't account for the Mos Eisley scene, though that could be main-cast immunity.

[Renegade Paladin]

We know the Borg can replace spinal components with metal ones, and we know the Federtion can replicate spinal components, but its not clear if the Federation can replace spinal components with metal ones (probably wouldn't bother, once they had the replicator technique to replicate them).

It was a major plot point of an episode in TNG that they are unable to do so safely; Worf was paralyzed in an accident and wished to commit suicide rather than live disabled, so Dr. Crusher got authorization to attempt a highly experimental and dangerous surgery to replace the spinal cord, which nearly failed. I forget the episode name, but I can find out if you wish.

the most common excuse for their lack of accuracy on the Death Star is "they were ordered to ensure that Luke and company would escape" despite lack of support for this in the novelization and Death Star novel- Leia's comments about the ease of their escape seem to be more about the Tie fighters.

Well, they were. Tarkin wasn't talking about homing devices and taking an awful risk because he wasn't intentionally making a gambit. The radio dramatization makes this even more painstakingly clear because, being six hours long, they had much more time for plot exposition.

[hamishspence]

Then, yes, but now that technique has succeeded, it can be refined and applied whenever its needed.

Star wars tech is probably better at bionic surgery though.

[GoC]

Then shouldn't it on the basis on what is most observed then? For you have not exactly given any examples. And you keep disputing Mike Wong's calcs, yet you have yet to bring calcs to refute them.

I'm guessing this was actually aimed at hamishpence...
What should be done is that in the OP it should be clarified exactly why the federation hasn't used it's transporters+replicators to replicate fleets of ships (note: the OP will be contradicting some canon no matter what he says due to the inconsistency), what are the actual capabilities of AIs that results in their very un-AI-like behaviour (both universes), which demonstrations of fire-power/speed take precedence, how the Death "laser" works and Star Destroyer turbolasers work, when exactly is the Fed willing to use time travel and when it's willing to use it's one-off tech (like the genesis device or the sun-destroying missile). Just to name a few of the obvious ones.

[snoopy13a]

We know the Borg can replace spinal components with metal ones, and we know the Federtion can replicate spinal components, but its not clear if the Federation can replace spinal components with metal ones (probably wouldn't bother, once they had the replicator technique to replicate them).

Considering that the Federation doesn't know how to cure male pattern baldness yet, I'm betting on no

I hate the Borg as a plot device. The only thing worse than them is the EU Star Wars copycats, the Fuzzy Bongs. What makes the Star Wars versions worse is:

1) They are a ripoff of the Borg
2) Traditionally, Star Wars has been about internal struggle and civil war. The Fuzzy Bongs are an outside threat which conflicts with the traditonal Star Wars plots.

[Prime32]

You know, I find reading stardestroyer.net hilarious.

On one page they point out that Jango Fett shattered 5km-long asteroids with mines from his one-man ship in Episode II, whereas in TNG it was claimed that the Enterprise would need its entire photon torpedo payload to destroy one of comparable size. Then there's the Borg giving the payload of their most powerful superweapon in isotons. (1 isoton = 1 ton)

The fanfics there are good though. (Favourite part: the Enterprise officers have been locked in an Imperial prison. A stormtrooper points at Data and says "Your protocol droid is coming with us." Data hobbles along with them for a few seconds, then beats the crap out of them and frees everyone in the prison. )


You can argue over whether specs trump what is shown on-screen, but even if they were otherwise evenly matched, hyperdrive would still give Star Wars a massive advantage.

[Renegade Paladin]

To be absolutely fair, "isoton" is a nonsense term that the writers made up to avoid giving real numbers. I'm pretty sure they didn't realize that the prefix "iso-" is the Greek for "one," or if they did, they thought their fans wouldn't notice. It's fun to make fun of it, though.

[The Glyphstone]

I
What should be done is that in the OP it should be clarified exactly why the federation hasn't used it's transporters+replicators to replicate fleets of ships

Didn't they actually do this in an episode of DS9, or something like it? I only remember it vaguely...it might have been some sort of self-maintaining minefield instead, because it all blew up.

[Renegade Paladin]

Didn't they actually do this in an episode of DS9, or something like it? I only remember it vaguely...it might have been some sort of self-maintaining minefield instead, because it all blew up.

DS9, beginning of Season 6. It was a self-replicating minefield.

[Finn Solomon]

Batman versus Charlton Heston and the NRA, anybody?

[Dienekes]

The most crazy verus thing though....mmhmm.....probably any knight-vs-Samurai debate. The pro-Samurai side usually presents some pretty terrible arguments like a katana can cut through plate armor.

Yes. This. This also follows samurai vs anything. I have had such "facts" thrown at me that Samurai practiced solely with their sword since childhood, forgetting all else (wrong, samurai were actually horse archer, then horse spearmen, then swordsmen. They also had to run estates and get bogged down in politics), katana is an unbreakable weapon that can cut through anything (ughh), and my personal favorite that the samurai were so good with swords that they outlawed guns because in duels those who chose to fight with guns were at such a disadvantage

[Renegade Paladin]

my personal favorite that the samurai were so good with swords that they outlawed guns because in duels those who chose to fight with guns were at such a disadvantage

Excuse me?

[AstralFire]

my personal favorite that the samurai were so good with swords that they outlawed guns because in duels those who chose to fight with guns were at such a disadvantage

wat.

I mean, I'm all for not underestimating someone with a knife at a close-range gunfight, but

wat.

[The Rose Dragon]

God that's so ridiculous it's not even laughable. What did they do, deflect bullets?