Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI

[Psyx]

Now catching a sword with an open hand...
Mythbusters 'busted' it if I recall, though I didn't actually see the episode, I only heard about it. Apparently they consulted Ninjas for this?

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

[Yora]

It's something different when you wear gauntlets and it's not a two-handed overhead strike.
But when a katana comes straight at your skull and you try to catch it between your bare palms, you most likely only get your fingers chopped off, if you actually get your hands together before you're hit.

[tyckspoon]

.
But when a katana comes straight at your skull and you try to catch it between your bare palms, you most likely only get your fingers chopped off, if you actually get your hands together before you're hit.

I believe that's basically the result Mythbusters got, too, when they built a machine to try it- two clapping hands formed of ballistics gel. When they used a stroke that was actually slow enough to be reliably caught, the blade ended up stopped about halfway through the palms on the hands. So.. huzzah, you caught the blade, now you're incapable of fighting anyway.

[Maclav]

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

I refer you to Fiore del Liberi whom shows a number of blade grabs. Mind you this isn't catching the damn thing mid stroke it is picking it up at a dead stop off a bind or such to provide you with a moment to act.

[Karoht]

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

Well yes, naturally. American Ninjas aren't. They just aren't. Irish Ninjas are fine, but American, not so much.
www.drmcninja.com

And yeah, I teach people to grab the hand or wrist.

[Galloglaich]

You can grab the blade after a bind (after it is stopped) I believe i posed a video upthread from Hammabourg, where they cut a tatami with a sharp and then grabbed it, and played a little tug of war with it before taking it away.

G.

[boomwolf]

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

Yet far less awesome.

And I CAN think of a few things to do after you catch the blade.
None is ESPECIALLY effective, but it will likely work due to the sheer unexpectedness.

[Matthew]

I owned that book for a time, before I passed it off to a child I was mentoring. And I thought "that can't be Sir Marshall or Sir Bertrand, who was the other knight mentioned...
But I believe the Knight in question is Sir John Fastolf.
From wiki: "In the 1950s the Oxford academic K. B. McFarlane showed that Fastolf made large sums of money in France, which he managed to transfer back to England and invest in real property."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_John_Fastolf
His wife was a decent landowner. Lady landowners of the time typically were thrifty, as they had the reality of owning and operating the property upon them, while their husbands or sons were typically off fighting in wars or tourneys or otherwise spending money like it was going out of style. The challenge was putting on the front that you were rich, while being as cheap as possible.

Great book, highly recommended.

I re-read the book the other day, and could not find the reference, so I think I must have misremembered. Probably it is in Maurice Keen's Chivalry, which I read at about the same time. That said, I agree that the Knight in History is well worth a read; I really enjoyed reading it again for the medieval anecdotes. Bertrand du Guesclin would make an excellent model for a D&D character.

As an aside, I really enjoyed a recent review by Spoony of The Deadliest Warrior X-Box Game.

[Psyx]

Yet far less awesome.

And I CAN think of a few things to do after you catch the blade.
None is ESPECIALLY effective, but it will likely work due to the sheer unexpectedness.

I defy you to see an unarmed combatant take out a sword-armed foe who is assaulting you, and for it not to be pretty awesome.

How awesome would it be if the bloke trying to catch the sword lost half his hands, then got stabbed in the face?

[Brainfart]

As an aside, I really enjoyed a recent review by Spoony of The Deadliest Warrior X-Box Game.

Bugger that game, get Mount&Blade: Warband.

[Matthew]

Bugger that game, get Mount&Blade: Warband.

Heh, heh; I played the hell out of the original (I forget what version we bought in at, but it was a couple of years back at least). The newest version looks pretty cool, but in the end I have to admit that I do not care for the "waves of enemies and reinforcements" approach, which is a problem I had with the Total War series, as well. I would rather be able to field armies of 30,000 men at a time with Shogun Total War graphics than ten waves of 3,000 guys, no matter how improved the visuals. So, I probably will not buy into Mount & Blade Warbands (at least until its price falls to about £10).

It is definitely one of the more realistic feeling adventure games out there, though. I know a lot of people play using "auto-block", but personally I think that takes away a great deal of the fun and lethality. On the other hand, it is a pain that you have to go to auto resolve (which gives far worse results than actually fighting it out) when "knocked out". I often end up "commanding from the rear" when battles are important, particularly sieges, which is admittedly a bit boring.

[Aroka]

Bugger that game, get Mount&Blade: Warband.

I can't stop playing it. The mods alone are incredible, although now I'm left waiting for someone to update the Hundred Years' War mo and Song of Taliesin (which totally changed the game's dynamic - no/light armor, rare and poor horses, weak shields, spears and javelins as main weapons)...

Matthew: most of the game's settings are in plain text files that you can change easily, including a setting for letting battles continue after you're knocked out; a program called TweakMB has an interface for modifying those files easily and handily. And much respect for someone who doesn't auto-block.

Check out the mods at the Mount & Blade repository for even greater longevity for the game. You'll have to see which ones actually work, but I can recommend the Hundred Years' War, Song of Taliesin, Calradia at War, and The Eagle and the Radiant Cross (16th-century warfare; there's a giant balance problem with fighting the Imperial State, though, since all their units have firearms and you'll die before you ever reach them!).

Also, Medieval 2: Total War doesn't really have waves of troops/reinforcements unless you drag in multiple smaller armies, in which case it sort of makes sense; my fairly old computer can handle full stacks of units at the huge setting without problems...

[Psyx]

I don't really ever have time for PC games, but MTW2 is one that I keep going back to. I just reinstalled it for the umpteenth time again last week with the specific goal of winning as Sicily with all the difficulties dialled up. Shame I don't still have my save games, so I'm having to blaze through it all as England to unlock the faction, by way of a 'warm up'.

Brilliant game.

I played the original M&B, but the new one appears to run like a dog on my machine. Or did when I tried it last month, anyway.

[Joran]

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

The ninja they consulted was using hand claws (and with some Google-Fu, apparently called Shuko), and not bare hands. Likewise, not clapping his hands together to catch the blade, but more like using the claws to deflect the sword away.

[Britter]

For the record, the gentleman who was consulted for the 1st Mythbusters ninja show, which involved sword catching, was Dale Seago. He is a legitimate long-term student of Hatsumi Masaaki, the founder of the Bujinkan. Though there are some questions as to the actual historical accuracy of the Bujinkan's lineage, it is a legitimate organization, and Hatsumi is a legitimate teacher, and by all accounts Dale is a very skilled fellow. He downplayed the mystical and mythical aspects of the ninja, and focused instead of more concrete martial principles.

Now, the fellow they got to do the arrow-catching redux was, as far as I can tell, as much of a posuer as possible. No idea where they dug him up, or what his credentials are, but I doubt he was in any way legitimate.

[Matthew]

Matthew: most of the game's settings are in plain text files that you can change easily, including a setting for letting battles continue after you're knocked out; a program called TweakMB has an interface for modifying those files easily and handily. And much respect for someone who doesn't auto-block.

Yeah, the thing about modifying games is that I both suck at it and get involved in it way too much, but I will definitely look into that.

Check out the mods at the Mount & Blade repository for even greater longevity for the game. You'll have to see which ones actually work, but I can recommend the Hundred Years' War, Song of Taliesin, Calradia at War, and The Eagle and the Radiant Cross (16th-century warfare; there's a giant balance problem with fighting the Imperial State, though, since all their units have firearms and you'll die before you ever reach them!).

Thanks for the recommendations!

Also, Medieval 2: Total War doesn't really have waves of troops/reinforcements unless you drag in multiple smaller armies, in which case it sort of makes sense; my fairly old computer can handle full stacks of units at the huge setting without problems...

That is interesting. So there is no limit on army size in MTW2? I stopped playing with Rome Total War.

[Norsesmithy]

With regard to pistol locktime (ie the time between trigger pull and powder ignition), a modern single action auto, like a 1911 variant or most closed bolt semi or full automatic rifles is somewhere between 5 and 15 milliseconds. For a striker fired or double action firearm, like a Glock or lets say a Beretta, you'll see a range of between 10-35. Keep in mind that a double action firearm will most often fire in single action for subsequent shots, at least until the User dec*cks it. Most striker fired firearms will have a consistent lock time from shot to shot.

Now, with regard to making a move when being held at gunpoint, one thing to remember is that the gunman's reaction time starts when he realizes you are doing something (assuming he isn't just killing out of hand because he wants to rob you, arrest you, take you hostage, soliloquy, etc). Action is always faster than reaction, because of this. So assuming a trained reaction time, and the gunman is keeping the pistol at the edge of the sear, about to go off, you generally have ~.4 seconds to act.

Now if his finger is just resting on the trigger, you've got more than that, because he has to pull the trigger. A single action pistol is going to have a much faster trigger pull (my 1911 has about an 1/8th inch of travel, requiring about 3 lbs of force, so trigger pull is very fast), and a double action can have a very slow trigger pull (especially Eastern Block double action firearms like the P64 with 3/4ths of an inch of travel and 24 lbs of force, or a Makarov with a half inch of travel and 18 lbs of force), and a striker fired like a Glock can have a rather short pull, but that is very dependent on model (a Sigma has a much heavier and longer trigger pull than a Glock, but both are striker fired).

This is the genesis of the 21 foot "rule".

Compare that to split times for practical pistol competition, and you can see how a criminal or a policeman who has the drop on a trained pistolero might end up shot dead despite having their gun out at someone who still has his holstered.


And as far as rate of fire goes, don't always assume that a semi auto pistol is the loser against a subgun, a 1911, for instance, has a higher cyclic rate than a Mini Uzi, despite being semi automatic, and a guy named Jerry Miculek has put 100 rounds on target with a 1911 and 10 10 round mags at a cyclic rate of 622 rounds per minute (reload time included, the guy is scary fast).

It's on Youtube, but I can't find it right now.

[Yora]

There are a couple of videos of that guy on youtube. His shoting skill is just insane, and he looks like a nice old man who could appear on my grandfathers birthday.

[Beleriphon]

Now, the fellow they got to do the arrow-catching redux was, as far as I can tell, as much of a posuer as possible. No idea where they dug him up, or what his credentials are, but I doubt he was in any way legitimate.

They mention his training in the show, as I recall some kind of multi-event world champion of some martial art or another.

[fusilier]

And as far as rate of fire goes, don't always assume that a semi auto pistol is the loser against a subgun, a 1911, for instance, has a higher cyclic rate than a Mini Uzi, despite being semi automatic, and a guy named Jerry Miculek has put 100 rounds on target with a 1911 and 10 10 round mags at a cyclic rate of 622 rounds per minute (reload time included, the guy is scary fast).

It's on Youtube, but I can't find it right now.

If I remember the reasoning correctly, semi-automatic pistols have very short recoil distances (i.e. the bolt doesn't travel very far), and if made full-auto could have really high cyclic rates. The unusual villar perosa submachine gun was built around a pistol action, and had something like 1500-2000 rpm out of each barrel (it was a twin barrel design, but each barrel had it's own action and magazine).

Compare that to the Chauchat automatic rifle, which has a very long recoil spring and produces about 250 rpm.

[Yora]

I've heard about gun manufacturers making changes to prototypes to get RPM down to about 1000. Rates of up to 2000 are possible, but that's really just a waste of ammo at that point.

[Psyx]

That is interesting. So there is no limit on army size in MTW2? I stopped playing with Rome Total War.

Limit in what way? An army is limited to being 20 units. Which is fair considering logistical considerations. You can of course keep a bunch of armies next to each other for support. If such armies engage in combat, you can either elect to command the 'main' army, and have all your others controlled by AI, or control 'your' army and reinforcements are bought on to replace destroyed, withdrawn or routed units on a one-for-one basis.
When facing the AI, it's perfectly happy to throw multiple armies at you at once. Especially the Mongels. They love it, with their level 9 generals, and uber cavalry and *grumblegrumble*....

[Psyx]

If I remember the reasoning correctly, semi-automatic pistols have very short recoil distances

They also have very small, light bolts. Many machine pistols use tungsten inserts in the bolts to weight them down and reduce rate of fire. The skorpion uses an 'ingenious' *cough* method which involves having a spring and a weight bouncing up and down in the grip, which does wonders for accuracy...

[Shademan]

They consulted an American bloke who said he was a ninja. By definition: that's not a ninja!

Catching a sword blade is essentially a stupid and pointless exercise. Either step back out of it's way, or step in and grab their hand. Both are far safer, and far easier.

he was a high ranking practioner of ninjutsu, does he have to be japanese to be a ninja?


I gues technically there are no ninjas anymore as you kinda have to be an assassin to be a ninja, but hey, why spoil their fun?

[Psyx]

Because it's a little lame?

'Ninja' is a job description, not a martial art. Can I call myself a knight because I can use a sword? Should I call myself a priest if I've committed the bible to memory? If I learn kenjitsu and jujitsu, am I samurai?

The whole black ensemble is also just... a bit lame, too.

That's without bringing the whole 'Oh, really: 100% genuine ninjutsu, you say?' side of things into it.

[Shademan]

Because it's a little lame?


The whole black ensemble is also just... a bit lame, too.

That's without bringing the whole 'Oh, really: 100% genuine ninjutsu, you say?' side of things into it.

I don't understand that word but i THINK you mean the...uniform...thingie.
and yes. it is black. all over the world. thats just how it is.
and why wouldnt it be genuine ninjutsu? you dont doubt that karate is fake just because a white guy is doing it?
and knight and samurai are not as much jobs are they are social classes. might want to choose other examples but I get your point

[Matthew]

Limit in what way? An army is limited to being 20 units. Which is fair considering logistical considerations. You can of course keep a bunch of armies next to each other for support. If such armies engage in combat, you can either elect to command the 'main' army, and have all your others controlled by AI, or control 'your' army and reinforcements are bought on to replace destroyed, withdrawn or routed units on a one-for-one basis.
When facing the AI, it's perfectly happy to throw multiple armies at you at once. Especially the Mongels. They love it, with their level 9 generals, and uber cavalry and *grumblegrumble*....

Limit as in the number of combatants fighting on the battlefield at once. Aroka took this subject to private messages to prevent further derailing of the thread. Given the specifications of this thread, we should probably follow his example in further discussion of the Total War series, or else start a new thread in the Other Games subforum.

[Psyx]

I don't understand that word but i THINK you mean the...uniform...thingie.
and yes. it is black. all over the world. thats just how it is.

My memory is a little hazy, but basically the idea that 'real' ninja wear this ridiculous costume spread form Japanese theatre. Scene-shifters wear black, and are supposed to be ignored and invisible. A play used this, and one of the supposed and 'invisible' scene shifters stepped out from the forth wall and took the role of assassin during a play. This seems to have been the original portrayal of ninja wearing black.
It is the equivalent of 'real' pirates affecting Cornish accents and sporting parrots. There isn't really any historical reference to spies wearing such a daft outfit before this juncture.

Next up: Black is a dumb colour to wear. Not many things are black. It stands out and draws the eye. It's a less than ideal choice of colour for sneaking around in. It's also a solid lump of colour that utterly fails to break up the wearer's outline. And we are wired to be very good at picking out human-shaped blobs with our eyes. The tight-fitting nature also fails to break up shape, which is another classic 'no-no' in camouflage. No self-respecting intruder would be seen in such a costume. It also makes any approach other than pure lack-of-observation totally impossible: No wandering around looking like you belong there will get you past guards, looking like that.

and why wouldnt it be genuine ninjutsu? you dont doubt that karate is fake just because a white guy is doing it?

The thing about it is... that it's supposedly secret. Passed down in secrecy and all that. Which makes it very easy for people to step out of the woodwork and claim that they were taught by ancient masters blah, blah, blah. And be lying. It's safe to say that the vast majority of people making such claims... are lying. Given the massively xenophobic attitude of Japan in general, the chances of a caucasian 'ninja' being genuine are even smaller.

The world of martial arts is thick with false claims. A vast number of schools -both historically and today- completely made up their history for PR purposes, and claimed to hold great secrets. And that's not even the 'secretive' schools. That's the normal ones. Sometimes those made-up histories are self-fulfilling and genuinely believed by later generations of practitioners.

One thing is certain though: It is VERY difficult for arts to be genuinely preserved, especially during times of great social change. Look at our Western arts: We have fencing - which is a sport vastly divorced from the fighting arts of 500 years ago - to base our knowledge on, as well as a few surviving manuscripts and fight manuals. We've had to piece the rest together ourselves via experimentation. Take away all of those manuscripts, take away the sport form, and what have you genuinely got that ties a new art to an old?

If you're REALLY lucky, then nobody lied in the last few hundred years and there might be a genuine link (which can't be proved because professional intelligence operatives aren't keen on recording things for posterity). Then what do you have: An art that's been passed on for a few hundred years, which has probably become watered down beyond all recognition, and completely divorced from the realities of actual combat and the original art itself.

/rant

and knight and samurai are not as much jobs are they are social classes. might want to choose other examples but I get your point

You got the point. That was the important thing. Learning to shoot a Walther PPK does not make one a spy.

A better example might be comparison to claiming to belong to an ancient and secret order, based on performing occultish ceremonies which probably have nothing to do with the actual traditions, and are basically modern derivatives.

[crazedloon]

indeed the most likely "true" ninja outfit was an outfit which looked like the common folks things. His weapons simple tools used for farming or easily hidden tools weapons, not the fancy impractical weapons which tend to be attributed to them.

Ninja's are particularly unique becuase unlike most "warrior classes" of the age they were not high ranking or rich but peasants in most cases. They used surprise and improvisation more than strict training and technique. However through the years their image has been distorted to make them more "believable" villains. What is more believable or admirable? A well trained, Nobel samurai beating up and killing a peasant look alike who has little actual combat prowls. Or a samurai fighting to the death against a well trained in secret arts and mystical powered fighting monstrosity.

[Aroka]

indeed the most likely "true" ninja outfit was an outfit which looked like the common folks things. His weapons simple tools used for farming or easily hidden tools weapons, not the fancy impractical weapons which tend to be attributed to them.

This reminds me of L5R/Rokugan, where one of the "truths" about the Scorpion ninjas (if they exist!) is that they make "rookies" wear the black outfits and use ridiculous weapons like breakable ninjato and shuriken (which are completely worthless even against the lightest armor, because the chances of hitting an unprotected location throwing one of those are so tiny) as a form of hazing, and possibly as a distraction: while the guards are busy chasing after the incredibly conspicuous guy in black throwing useless pieces of metal at them, the real assassin brushes past the victim and scratches him with a poisoned needle, or slips into the victim's bedroom, or whatever.

Rokugan is pretty awesome (especially because the books make it very clear that ninjas may not, and need not, even exist - they might be nothing but another long-running Scorpion deception, or maybe the deception everyone in the know knows is a deception is actually a deception and ninjas are real, or...). And then there's the possibility of all the alternative, non-human or once-human ninjas serving horrible inhuman masters...