System Copyright Question

[DarkCloud]

I have a question and a vague recollection of an answer, but was just wondering if someone knew off the top of their head or had a link that could assist.

I seem to recall that WhiteWolf attempted to sue another game creator for appropriating their "dot system"

I also seem to recall that their "dot system" for character sheets is under copyright.

I also seem to recall that a gaming system cannot be copyrighted, per se but that certain aspects of a system can be, such as a character sheet.

The question that I hope to know the answer to is this:

If someone were to use dots in a character sheet (say 6 dots per attribute) but otherwise not use the WhiteWolf terms, names, etc., would that be a copyright infringement?

For example: "Speed * * * 0 0 0" // "Credits * * * 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0" and statistics were abstract in their representations of skill.

I have not seen any other system use dots to represent character advancement, but I have seen many systems use Call of Cthulu-esque 100% system, and DnD d20 system (which of course is open source). So I was wondering if there is something unique about WW's dot system.

[Debihuman]

If someone were to use dots in a character sheet (say 6 dots per attribute) but otherwise not use the WhiteWolf terms, names, and the layout was only vaguely similar, would that be a copyright infringement?

Only a lawyer can answer that question.

Debby

[Yora]

I'm very sure you can't hold copyright on a system to write numbers.

"* * * 0 0 0" is just a different way to write "3".

[AKA_Bait]

Only a lawyer can answer that question.

Debby

This is correct. Ask a lawyer.

Patrick

[Nero24200]

I'm no lawyer, so you may need to take what I say with a pinch of salt.

First, I don't think using a dot-system to display abilities breaches a copyright law. You can't copyright a style, nor could you copyright something as specific as that. The general rule with design is that you can use other design ideas, as long as their is enough significant changes to justify calling it your own. For something like that to be copyrighted..well..it could create alot of problems.

If you can copyright a series of dots, suddenly you'll have companies copyrighting other things on the same level, such as the idea of using "Levels" to represent character growth. Or better yet, you'd have say...for instance, an ice-cream company "copyrighting ice-cream" so that no one else can produce ice-cream.

Even without that, White Wolf definately aren't the first to use a "6 Dot" style to represent a character's level with skills. In fact, the WoTC games Baldur's Gate for the playstation used the same display system for character abilities, and I havn't seen White Wolf take them to court.

[Debihuman]

First, I don't think using a dot-system to display abilities breaches a copyright law.

If you don't know, then don't give advice. Sheesh. It's a matter of Product Idenity not just the Copyright and Trademarks. Easy advice: don't swipe someone's idea and try to market it as your own without the advice of a lawyer.

If you can copyright a series of dots, suddenly you'll have companies copyrighting other things on the same level, such as the idea of using "Levels" to represent character growth. Or better yet, you'd have say...for instance, an ice-cream company "copyrighting ice-cream" so that no one else can produce ice-cream.

And how many versions of "Cherry Garcia" do you see on the market?

Debby

[Dairun Cates]

Well, I'll have to get my actual law buddy in on this, but a breach of copyright can depend on a lot of small values.

Sure. Using dots to indicate stats may not be copyrightable, but the layout of the page, the size of the dots, the color, and any of a number of mitigating factors can indicate a copyright problem.

Think of it this way, if I take the D&D character sheet and change every word on the page, but keep the exact same layout, they'd have a VERY good case against me. It likely could have been the same way with White Wolf. Sure, White Wolf can't exactly copyright "visual representation of numbers", but it's could have been a very close copy. It's not too hard to believe someone would copy a layout if it made it easier to write a system.

Also, the fact that they would take it to court would seem to indicate that White Wolf had a very strong case AND the company in question was making a considerable profit.

[DarkCloud]

Hm. Thank you.

The Storyteller System (TM) seems to be product identity.

I have not found the lawsuit I was thinking about, nor have I found an official description of what the Storyteller System is, but I did find thiS:
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Storytelling_System
http://www.white-wolf.com/fansites/fs_faq.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storytelling_System

I suppose the point is what aspects of the System are product identity or not. I find it odd that the concept of dots can be trademarked, though- but it appears that they may be- even if the other aspects of the system (successes, the 8 system, dice pools) are not used in any way.

Without seeing their actual Trademark application it's difficult for me to know what's covered or not.

I was having difficulty tracking it down here: http://www.uspto.gov/main/sitesearch.htm
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...006:8plec9.3.9
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield

Hmm. Very odd.
Any further help is appreciated.

---

Also, the fact that they would take it to court would seem to indicate that White Wolf had a very strong case AND the company in question was making a considerable profit.

Well.. not necessarily, they may just hope to intimidate an unsophisticated creator into a cease and desist or a settlement.

[DarkCloud]

This is correct. Ask a lawyer.

Patrick

Fair point, but I'd rather not pay a consultation fee. Not just any lawyer could answer the question efficiently- the lawyer would have to have some knowledge of the industry at hand.

I was hoping to be directed to a case (if anyone remembered the name by a vague recollection I can wade through WestLaw reporters to track everything else down) or a copyright/trademark application (perhaps someone could point me to a place on their site where it lists the trademark #?); from there I could probably find out the answer to the question myself.

[DarkCloud]

If you can copyright a series of dots, suddenly you'll have companies copyrighting other things on the same level, such as the idea of using "Levels" to represent character growth.

Amazingly, however, I saw a patent number on one of those plastic things that goes around napkins to hold them in place (!)

Copyright/Patent/Trademarking can be quite minute in detail; recall the battles fought between Research in Motion and others over the Blackberry technology.

Thus arises my belief that the dots may be copyrighted, but my puzzlement if they actually are.

[Nero24200]

And how many versions of "Cherry Garcia" do you see on the market?

Debby

I suppose it was a bad example. A better example might be this - You don't see any ice-cream companies copyrighting ice-cream cones. Product idenity does incorporate the style, but unless it's a blatent rip-off of that style you'll still get away with it - even if the idea from them.

Now...if you stole their layout within their books, used a similer logo and went with an overall similer them, then you'd be in trouble. Taking an idea from one small aspect isn't going to get you in any trouble, especially considering, as I said, many companies already incorporate that particular aspect.

[lesser_minion]

I think White Wolf experimented with publishing some of their material as an OGL supplement - anything found in that book would be fair game.

If you're uncomfortable with the legality of something you want to do, you should consult an appropriate legal professional. That's about the only other advice I can give you.

[DarkCloud]

especially considering, as I said, many companies already incorporate that particular aspect.

Which other companies use dots to represent data in their games? Which systems use dots?

That's one reason for my concern.

I think White Wolf experimented with publishing some of their material as an OGL supplement - anything found in that book would be fair game.

Thank you. I will try to track that down.

[DarkCloud]

Re: White Wolf OGL, from what I can gather the setting can be reused in some instances-- there has been a d20 White Wolf game, and there were some comments in that regard on the FAQ on their website; but the system may not be used apparently. Still does not quite answer my question though.

Hmm.

It doesn't seem that in general a system can usually be copyrighted but WhiteWolf's Storyteller system appears to be protected.

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

The back side of this form letter describes the options for registering copyrightable portions of games. If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, we recommend that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.

The deposit requirements will vary, depending on whether the work has been published at the time of registration. If the game is published, the proper deposit is one complete copy of the work. If, however, the game is published in a box larger than 12" * 24" * 6" (or a total of 1,728 cubic inches) then identifying material must be submitted in lieu of the entire game. (See “identifying material” below). If the game is published and contains fewer than three threedimensional elements, then identifying material for those parts must be submitted in lieu of those parts. If the game is unpublished, either one copy of the game or identifying material should be deposited.

Identifying material deposited to represent the game or its three-dimensional parts usually consists of photographs, photostats, slides, drawings, or other two-dimensional representations of the work. The identifying material should include as many pieces as necessary to show the entire copyrightable content of the work, including the copyright notice if it appears on the work. All pieces of identifying material other than transparencies must be no less than 3" * 3" in size, and not more than 9" * 12", but preferably 8" * 10". At least one piece of identifying material must, on its front, back, or mount, indicate the title of the work and an exact measurement of one or more dimensions of the work.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html