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2009-10-05, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Why would they resurrect Shojo if the only thing they would do with him is throwing him in jail at the spot. It could be because he's still the ruler until proven guilty, but it still seems like a waste of resources to resurrect him for the sole purpose to have him go through a trial.
But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure Shojo believed that that was exactly the reasons why to resurrect him, so I'm not really blaming him for refusing.Clouddreamer Teddy by me, high above the world, far beyond its matters...
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2009-10-05, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Why resurrect Shojo?
"He's my uncle." Hinjo doesn't need more reason.
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2009-10-05, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
"He was murdered- and this is a Wrong that needs to be Righted" is a reason.
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2009-10-05, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Well, there's probably still many questions Hinjo would like to ask him.
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2009-10-05, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Shojo wasn't just murdered, he was murdered by his highest ranking paladin. Like Belkar said he was going to die in a few years anyway and they wear going to put him in jail. Maybe Shojo just figured that Hinjo would be equally effective at rallying the city now that members of his own government new that he was a criminal and one of them saw fit to summarily execute him.
SpoilerIt is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and furry, signifying nothing. But enough about your story of your first child's death, you could all use an update on my problems.
To who ever starts another thread about Belkar's death, To the last I grapple with thee... from Hell's heart I stab at thee... For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.
Dread Cthulu wills that "Belkar-style lip-based assault" shall enter popular parlance! Remember kids, when in doubt, set something on fire.
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2009-10-05, 11:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
That is a good point. Shojo lived most of his life in paranoia that led him to involve Miko in a convoluted scheme when a simple job offer would have worked. He probably saw death as a sweet relief from the constant fear that came with a life as the rule of a city filled with power struggles.
He did, underneath all the neuroses, want the best for his city however, so he probably saw Hinjo's competence as a justification and is able to look back and regret not being ressed and at least TRYING to get Hinjo to put the house arrest off for the time being and rally the nobles.
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2009-10-15, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
By the way, in 4E there's no such thing. All Lawful are Lawful Good, and all Chaotic are Chaotic Evil.
(It's also impossible to be dedicated to the balance - the True Neutral of the 1st-edition Druid doesn't exist. There is "Unaligned", which is basically "don't care". So effectively half of all alignments are gone. But they didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes.)
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2009-10-15, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
You can be dedicated to "the wild" though (Melora).
And druids still exist.
And 4E Good is almost indistinguishable from 3.5 CG.
Unaligned means you can be anything you want, as long as you are not behaving in a seriously evil (or good) fashion.
And "dedicated to the balance" as interpreted in 2nd ed True Neutral, gave TN characters "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder."
Most people who speak of it seem very pleased it's gone.
That said, this isn't a 4E thread, but a OoTS (3.5) thread.
You can always put up a thead on "why removing TN was a bad thing" over on the roleplayeing games part of the board, if you like.Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-10-15 at 03:57 PM.
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2009-10-15, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, Belkar would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo and Hinjo would be dead now. If you want to criticize Hinjo's actions toward the prisoners, criticize him letting any of them out. (Yes, including Belkar.)
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2009-10-15, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
In summary, yes. Lord Shojo was a leading factor in Azure City's loss to the forces of evil.
Azure City lost that big battle for a lot of reasons. The watchtowers failed their purpose, the catapults were destroyed by Julio, the walls were breached by elementals, the high leveled paladins were tied up defending a throne, and there also happened to be some hobgoblins and an epic lich riding a dragon.
But the battle could have been won. Resources that could have turned the tide were lost forever, and that is entirely Lord Shojo's fault for being dead.
No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.
Hinjo was left in charge, distrusted by the nobles and a good portion of the people. How much time was wasted telling the population that its beloved leader had been killed for good under circumstances they could not know? How much time was spent making the nobles sit and listen to Hinjo? Far too much, when an army of 30,000 hobgoblins is 24 hours away.
Then the nobles sailed away. Shojo probably knew they would. He had to fake senility in order to avoid being assassinated. How would Hinjo get them to obey him in just a day's time, under mysterious circumstances? As these nobles sailed away, they took hundreds, maybe a few thousand, personal guards and servants, and then some civilians loyal to them. Civilians that might have been encouraged to pick up a sword if their noble was staying. These extra men would have certainly helped.
My point is, even if Shojo was alive, there was nothing that could have changed with the nobles.
And then at least a few of these nobles would probably have high level wizards to advise them. Remember V's contribution to the battle? V was almost the only reason the breach was held, at least until the entire army charged it. What if there were 3 Vs on the battlefield? Five? Ten? V was the only decently leveled spellcaster in the battle besides Sangwan that we saw. A bundle more would have turned the tide.
The point here is, the mages will only make a difference (as well the soldiers in general) if the nobles had something to gain from it. And keeping the status quo isn't a real incentive to do things. THey would be looking for favors or wealth or power or elevation or what not.
And then these nobles had armies of ninjas at their disposal. What if these ninjas were used to take out the leaders of the hobgoblins? Redcloak wouldn't have ordered the army to storm the breach with a sword in his back. The general could have been taken out too, leaving the hobgoblins leaderless.
These nobles and their valuable resources were lost because Shojo wasn't there to convince them to stay. Some of them at the very least would have stayed if they had a leader they had confidence in, instead of a paladin that gained power for reasons he couldn't explain. The troops themselves point this out.
Of course, there is one event that would have probably occurred with or without Shojo's presence. Xykon would have still killed Roy, and he would have probably still made it to the throne room. There, the same fight would occur. And then Lord Shojo would probably be in some kind of safe room with paladins defending him.
In the battle of the throne room, every last paladin counted. With one or two less, Redcloak would have helped Xykon take on Soon, and they might not have been defeated by him. However, if there were enough noble-sponsored wizards on the field, Xykon might have been held up by some and burned some of his more powerful spells, making him more likely to be defeated before Redcloak arrives, and heck, Redcloak might not even had made it to the room if he was stopped by the ninja, meaning he wouldn't have been there to turn the ghost martyrs and help Xykon.
And Xykon was hardly doing any damage to the ghosts. And since Xykon is a sorcerer, its not like he's gonna run out of spells rather quickly.
Point is, the defense of the throne room would have probably gone the same way.
Lord Shojo's cowardice was a leading factor in the fall of Azure City. Because he was scared of Hinjo's reaction, and because he was, according to Belkar, having a good time in the afterlife, his beloved city fell. Lord Shojo's refusal to return lost time to prepare, valuable resources and men the nobles could have provided, and drained troop moral.
The troops were fighting for a paladin they didn't entirely trust, especially when they couldn't know how he gained power over them. Lord Shojo's final words (besides that snark to Miko) were "Everything I did, I did for my people." No, not everyone.
One thing he did helped to cause the deaths of ten thousand soldiers and helped to cause the survivors to sail on a fleet in exile for almost a year. Lord Shojo hid from his duties as ruler, and possibly because of it, his city was destroyed.
In short, Shojo couldn't have been of any help.My life for Nerzhul!
Join the Cult of the Damned, we have free donuts on fridays! -Bago!!!
"There is a fine line between life and death. The thing is, I just don't give a damn." Lou
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2009-10-16, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
So you're basically telling me that Hinjo could see into the future and knew Belkar would betray him, so that's why he kept the Mark on? Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?
Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.
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2009-10-16, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
No. On the other hand, Belkar wasn't "neutered" as soon as he left the city. And no one onstage ever suggested to him that he shouldn't have left the city.
Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?
Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2009-10-17, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
one of the advantages of combining Marked Belkar with him being inside the city- he can attack undead (zombies, ghouls, etc) without problems, but he can't attack the soldiers or Hinjo.
On the other hand- he can still "Not Help" at critical moments- luckily, he chose not to do that when Hinjo was in danger.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2009-10-18, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Actually, don't forget that it is possible that Shojo wanted to return and couldn't. The guidelines for Raise Dead (carried over to Resurrection) indicate that the soul must be free AND want to return. Many DMs (myself included) have always interpreted the first part to also mean that whatever power has jurisdiction over soul can make the call whether to allow it to return.
Case in point: Durkon is killed and the party locates another priest to Raise him. In order for him to be successfully raised, Durkon must want to be raised AND Thor (or Hel or however Rich has it work in his specific version of the mythos) must be willing to allow him to be raised.
In short, without knowing where Shojo's soul is or who has jurisdiction over it, his willingness or lack thereof to be raised may not be the deciding factor. (I suspect Belkar's explanation is probably correct, but there is certainly room to say that it's not Shojo's fault he didn't return)."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2009-10-18, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
I think it's worth noting that whatever advantages Shojo being alive might have given the city in defending itself against hobgoblins, Xykon could probably have taken the entire city by himself if he was willing to take several days to do so.
The entirety of the Sapphire Guard (minus two) couldn't even touch him, and the OOTS isn't too great with ranged combat. Xykon could massacre hundreds of troops a day with an Overland Flight spell, and not a single person would be able to significantly threaten him or prevent him from retreating. The only thing that would present any difficulty would be the throne room, but Shojo being alive or dead had nothing to do with that.
So, no, Shojo didn't let Azure City fall, since absolutely nothing within his power could have made a difference. Stopping the hobgoblins wouldn't have saved the city.
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2009-10-18, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Shojo's religion is governed by 12 gods. Each one seems to have a different allignment (Rat seems to be more evilish, Dragon is Lawful Neutral (You can't help your clerics in the south because of my rules even if it means the deaths of my people) so it isn't unreasonable to assume that wherever Shojo, went, one of his gods is helping to govern the afterlife. All twelve gods were present to strip Miko of her powers when she struck down Shojo, so I think they would've helped him out if he wanted to go back to his kingdom
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2009-10-18, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Everything could be different if Shojo was ressurected and stood on the throne. But THAT is the problem: if Hinjo let that happen, then he wouldn't be different from his uncle, doing what is NOT right for the good of people.
But I have to agree: even though he was in jail, Shojo could give good advice to Hinjo. =/
Now I have the feeling that the city could somehow be saved. =(
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2009-10-18, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Given what we now know of xykons actual level, Azure city was doomed from the start. The gate may have held, but the nobles personal guards wouldn't have been able to hold against the hobgoblin hoards once the walls fell.
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2009-10-18, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
My life for Nerzhul!
Join the Cult of the Damned, we have free donuts on fridays! -Bago!!!
"There is a fine line between life and death. The thing is, I just don't give a damn." Lou
Could use some helpful critique for my avatar that I made. Please?
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2009-10-18, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell), thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.
For that matter, Shojo might have trapped Miko behind an inescapable forcecage/cube of walls of force before the battle, thus preventing the castle from exploding.
However, Shojo was told/advised by the eladrins not to come back because if Xykon fellthe comic would endthe IFCC would have been able to take over the gates at their leisure after the Order disbanded.
Shojo had to sacrifice part of his city's population to save the world (including all of the city). A logical decision.Last edited by Bibliomancer; 2009-10-18 at 05:00 PM.
In Dungeons and Dragons, racism is frowned upon, unless you're playing an elf. Then it's an interesting character trait.
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2009-10-18, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Assuming he knew that of course.
But I still stand by what I said before, even if Shojo was risen back, there is no way the nobles would aid in the defense of the city. Not with Hinjo on the throne.My life for Nerzhul!
Join the Cult of the Damned, we have free donuts on fridays! -Bago!!!
"There is a fine line between life and death. The thing is, I just don't give a damn." Lou
Could use some helpful critique for my avatar that I made. Please?
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2009-10-18, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-10-18, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later. And also, what was Shojo guilty of that he could be arrested for? Hiring adventurers to do secret dirty work in the name of the state? Pretending to be senile so he wouldn't be killed? It's not like letting him rule the city until the invasion is stopped would be more dangerous than letting someone with no experience in real leadership take control of half a million civillians.
And the IFCC, Biblio? If Roy's deva didn't give him the heads up about them, Shojo probably wouldn't have been told it in the ten minutes he was in the afterlifeOriginally Posted by The Giant
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2009-10-18, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Everyone except a few people thought Shojo was insane for most of the time. And then he was revealed to be a deceiver who ended up putting the city in a horrible situation, even without dying. Why would the magistrates choose him? I doubt he even has the kind of leadership that would help in that battle, considering that he was pretending to be insane the entire time.
By the way, he'd be arrested for faking the trial and corruption (Letting Belkar go, even if it's with an MoJ).
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2009-10-18, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
short answer: NO
long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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2009-10-18, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell)
And thus a 9th level caster. That rates well above a nobles guard. SHojos own personal wizard was probably about that, and he didn't have a back up, indicating that wizards that level are fairly rare.
thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.
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2009-10-18, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
look if youre in a battle which yould bolster your confidence? a senile old man hiding in his castle or on the boats?
or a young black katana wielding evil smiting wolf riding paladin?
and shojo controlling the nobles into fighting? this is the man who fakes senility to avoid ninjas?
Azure city was doomed even if xykon and RC had died the 20000 remaining hobbos wouldve destroyed itI Am A:Neutral Good Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
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2009-10-19, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
I don't think they would have been given the option. Hinjo would have been far too busy with preparations for the defence of the city to worry about starting up a trial--Shojo would have been in the jail, and since he was only an Aristocrat (and a venerable one at that) he wouldn't have been much use in the fight, so he wouldn't have been part of Hinjo's work-release program.
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2009-10-19, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?
A) I think it's very unlikely that Shojo had the power to keep the nobles in the city. If people did what he wanted, he wouldn't have needed to spend the past decade pretending to be senile.
B) Even if he had, I don't see how Kubato could have prevented Redcloak from blasting through that breach. Redcloak took out the head Azurite cleric in like five minutes, why would Kubato's pet wizard fare any better?
Honestly, the only useful thing Shojo could accomplish by being alive would be to distract fellow jailbird Miko from running into the throne room before Soon finished off Xykon and Redcloak.