ABR Discussion Thread XXIX: Where we talk about bears....

[kpenguin]

Hmm... a bath scrub? Not sure what the proper term is here.

[Mina Kobold]

Hmm... a bath scrub? Not sure what the proper term is here.

Bath brush?

That's the only possibilty I can think of.

[chriky]

Maybe i'm wrong but I thought this plot was meant to be like FFF used to be, random. Now surely by voting on a comic to be non-canon makes the plot not very random at all and an awful lot more like the current FFF which is the opposite to what you wanted.
If you want this plot to be anything like the original FFF just work around it and tell Lying not to do silly tings next time. If you make it non-canon then the whole idea hasn't worked and before this incident it looked like it could work.

[Mina Kobold]

Maybe i'm wrong but I thought this plot was meant to be like FFF used to be, random. Now surely by voting on a comic to be non-canon makes the plot not very random at all and an awful lot more like the current FFF which is the opposite to what you wanted.
If you want this plot to be anything like the original FFF just work around it and tell Lying not to do silly tings next time. If you make it non-canon then the whole idea hasn't worked and before this incident it looked like it could work.

He's got a point there.

[Emperor Ing]

what point is he trying to make again?

[Mina Kobold]

what point is he trying to make again?

Chriky is saying that FFF:R was supposed to be random like the old FFF and that making a comic non-canon goes against that.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Maybe i'm wrong but I thought this plot was meant to be like FFF used to be, random. Now surely by voting on a comic to be non-canon makes the plot not very random at all and an awful lot more like the current FFF which is the opposite to what you wanted.
If you want this plot to be anything like the original FFF just work around it and tell Lying not to do silly tings next time. If you make it non-canon then the whole idea hasn't worked and before this incident it looked like it could work.

That's just it though. With this comic Lying makes it clear he intends to use the vast swathes of canon he's made without any interference from the ABR community as a whole.

[Khaeta]

Alright, here's a thought of how this could work without any non-canon cannoning. Not saying this is how it has to be, but an example:

FFF:R is an alternate universe to FFF. The devil-type guy, (he hasn't been named in comic yet, he could be anyone or anything) while not being named or described as a demon or devil or anything, is obviously a powerful outsider. He might be the same in both universes and might be aware that it's a reboot. He tells Lying this and tells him to go fix it. However, Lying doesn't know this for himself, and there is absolutely no way to prove this, so he goes off trying to fix things the way "they're supposed to be" while everyone else laughs him off as a nutcase.

...sounds a bit like a marvel comic
But I think It'd work without too many issues.

EDIT: And, now having read KP's comic, it makes it even easier to explain.

[Squark]

As far as non-canonization goes, I'm going to vote Nay. Why reinvent the wheel? If Lying goes in a different direction this time, I see no problem with numerous elements of the original Igon being present.


EDIT: Expanding on this idea a bit: I think that, sort of like in a comic book to alternate media transition, we should keep true to the core concept of each character, without keeping every single event. So, I'm in favor of the exact events of Remember being non-canon (In particular, the sovice. The sovice tend to encroach on the ability of the comics to be funny, which I'm enjoying FFF:RB's return to), but to keep the core concept of Lying intact.


To elaborate, here's what I'm going to define as the core concept of numerous characters-

Kpenguin- Anthropomorphic Penguin Mage descended from one of the original heroes who fought Sildyu.

Almighty Salmon- A flying landfish trying to stop the evil Threeshades from taking over the world, while saving his "little" brother

ThreeShades- An evil moon elf descended from Sildyu, out to reclaim the talisman of Dragonkind

Nameless- The Cloud Cuckoo Lander Grim Reaper

Squark- A penguin Timelord from another world

Lyinginbedmon- A centuries-old mage who made a deal with the devil after Sildyu destroyed his homeland

So, I think elements of the plots should be streamlined, and we should go in a different direction, but I don't think elements of the original plot need to be completely thrown out unless they're incredibly disruptive to the basic plot (the search for the keys), which Lying doesn't have to be.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Alright, here's a thought of how this could work without any non-canon cannoning. Not saying this is how it has to be, but an example:

FFF:R is an alternate universe to FFF. Levitus, while not being named or described as a demon or devil or anything, is obviously a powerful outsider. He might be the same in both universes and might be aware that it's a reboot. He tells Lying this and tells him to go fix it. However, Lying doesn't know this for himself, and there is absolutely no way to prove this, so he goes off trying to fix things the way "they're supposed to be" while everyone else laughs him off as a nutcase.

THIS.

Poor Lying. Everyone hates him.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Oh dear. I don't know what to vote for! On one hand, I HATE Lyinginbed jerk, and I also disrespect Chriky, who has defended him on this occasion. This is a perfect opportunity to go against them and antagonize them!

But, on the other hand, I REALLY disagree that it needs to be non-canon and I REALLY don't see what the hell the big problem is. If he wants to make a continuity gag to introduce his character, what the hell is the big problem?! It dosen't disrupt our plot, and I actually like that idea better. Besides, the plot has been said IN-CANON that it wasn't always like that before and that it was once FFF but rebooted, so I don't see why the hell it has to be that the universe has never changed and was always like that!

Lastly, I REALLY hate Shakespere, so that last reference in Kpenjerk's last comic makes me vote that THAT comic is non-canon instead.

I vote NAY on non-canonization!

[Silverraptor]

It may be because I'm still new and all...

..But I fail to see what the problem with this is...

[Mina Kobold]

It may be because I'm still new and all...

..But I fail to see what the problem with this is...

Pen said that Levistus both being a character in the extremely plot-driven Remember backstory and the basic DnD setting didn't fit FFF:R and that the world weren't the original one remade but was entirely new, he wanted it declared non-canon.
Others objected that making it non-canon would be even further against the spirit of FFF:R and a argument was started.

On another note, We should have some sort of Collect-Them-All plot or sideplot

[The Gremlin]

I vote Aye in favor of non-canonization.
And as I have stated I would do in the past, I am withdrawing ogres. I'll leave trolls so as not to disrupt the continuity of CoN, but I am not interested in having my CoN race look identical to one in some random new plot. I will most likely reintroduce them as the original concept, or just keep them to myself. But this is my decision, and, make of this what you will (and I know you people will), I will not listen to any debate against my decision. I created the race. I have the right to remove them.
Go ahead and use the graphics, though. As creator of the actual pictures, DLB has that right. But the concept is mine.

[Mina Kobold]

I vote Aye in favor of non-canonization.
And as I have stated I would do in the past, I am withdrawing ogres. I'll leave trolls so as not to disrupt the continuity of CoN, but I am not interested in having my CoN race look identical to one in some random new plot. I will most likely reintroduce them as the original concept, or just keep them to myself. But this is my decision, and, make of this what you will (and I know you people will), I will not listen to any debate against my decision. I created the race. I have the right to remove them.
Go ahead and use the graphics, though. As creator of the actual pictures, DLB has that right. But the concept is mine.

Actually, IIRC you don't hold any rights of the concept.

That's what copyright is for... Not that I think anyone would use it without your permission of course.

Well... I wouldn't.

[Emperor Ing]

I vote WHO CARES!!!

[Lyinginbedmon]

So currently the fully-declared votes are 5 Nae, 5 Aye, and 3 Abstain (This includes "don't care"). If we assume that chriky & Keveak also vote Nae (based on their comments), the comic remains canon by 2 votes.

{table]

Aye

|

Nae

|

Abstain

Darklord Bright|chriky|Randomizer
Keris Rain|EmeraldPhoenix|Silverraptor
Kpenguin|Keveak|Tiffanie Lirle
Ninja Chocobo|Kopaka|
The Gremlin|Lyinginbedmon|
|Squark|
|The Q|

5

|

7

|

3

[/table]

Nearly finished posing one/two characters for the second page, then there's the other character and dialogue and it'll be up for viewing.

[Keris]

WALL OF TEXT INBOUND!

Scrub: a : a stunted tree or shrub b : vegetation consisting chiefly of scrubs c : a tract covered with scrub

How do you make that with fruit?

Scrub (verb)
To rub hard so as to clean.

Thus,
Scrub (noun) (informal)
A utensil used for scrubbing; a body scrub.

Maybe i'm wrong but I thought this plot was meant to be like FFF used to be, random. Now surely by voting on a comic to be non-canon makes the plot not very random at all and an awful lot more like the current FFF which is the opposite to what you wanted.
If you want this plot to be anything like the original FFF just work around it and tell Lying not to do silly tings next time. If you make it non-canon then the whole idea hasn't worked and before this incident it looked like it could work.

Kpen's announcement of FFF:R made no mention of it being "random". Take a look for yourself [link]. He wanted it to be neither fleeting nor overplotted. And introducing the entirely of Remember as canon within FFF:R would be, in my eyes, overplotting it.
And in any case, removing the non-canon cannon altogether seems a foolish idea, we have it for a reason. If we accept any comic someone makes as canon, then one individual could completely turn around the plot, while others looked on helplessly. So we have it controlled by democracy.

Why reinvent the wheel? If Lying goes in a different direction this time, I see no problem with numerous elements of the original Igon being present.

Why reinvent the wheel? Because that was the basis of FFF:R. Restart FFF, but go in a different direction. Maybe we want the wheel to have tracks this time. Or maybe an aerofoil would be better. And I'm not objecting to "numerous elements of the original Igon being present", I'm objecting to Levistus being present and Lying's FFF backstory comic being canon in FFF:R. Which seems to be the case in his introduction.

So, I think elements of the plots should be streamlined, and we should go in a different direction, but I don't think elements of the original plot need to be completely thrown out unless they're incredibly disruptive to the basic plot (the search for the keys), which Lying doesn't have to be.

While it may not be disruptive of the plot, it's disruptive of the setting. Having Levistus precludes us from making our own cosmology, and having him in power indicated that Remember is canon. Additionally, some elements could easily be disruptive to the plot, like the fact that Levistus apparently has Sildyu's souls as a result of Lying's bargain.

Poor Lying. Everyone hates him.

I don't hate him. But I don't like having Lying decide a huge amount of FFF:R's setting by himself, without any input from us.

But, on the other hand, I REALLYdisagree that it needs to be non-canon and I REALLY don't see what the hell the big problem is. If he wants to make a continuity gag to introduce his character, what the hell is the big problem?! It dosen't disrupt our plot, and I actually like that idea better. Besides, the plot has been said IN-CANON that it wasn't always like that before and that it was once FFF but rebooted, so I don't see why the hell it has to be that the universe has never changed and was always like that!

Me and NC at least (at least, I think NC shares my opinion) are not objecting to the "continuity gag" (which doesn't really qualify as such, because it's not a joke. It's meant to be dramatic foreshadowing.), we're objecting to Remember being canon in FFF:R. I mean, no-one objected to kippy's continuity gag at the end of the into comics.

Lastly, I REALLY hate Shakespere, so that last reference in Kpenjerk's last comic makes me vote that THAT comic is non-canon instead.

Note that if Lying's comic is non-canon, so is kippy's most recent offering. He even preceded it with "If Lying's comic is canon...". Additionally, you'll probably find less support for making kippy's comic non-canon on it's lonesome, as it fixes one of the smaller problems with Lying's comic.

It may be because I'm still new and all...

..But I fail to see what the problem with this is...

Problem the first, which is a minor one: Levistus is somehow aware that the very fabric of reality was unravelled and rewoven into something new. This should be impossible, as he and all his memories were unravelled as well.
Problem the second, which I am objecting to: If Levistus is canon, and his deal with Lying is canon, and thus the circumstances and consequences of that deal is canon, then much of Remember is canon in FFF:R. Which it shouldn't be, Remember is a FFF backstory, not a FFF:R one. Additionally, it makes huge assumptions about the setting and lays them down as canon without any creative input from the rest of ABR.

[kpenguin] wanted it declared non-canon.

Lies. I was the one who wanted it declared non-canon, kippy was prepared to work around it until I started raising a stink.

On another note, We should have some sort of Collect-Them-All plot or sideplot

We have one. It's the hunt for the Keys to the Talisman of the Dragon King.

So currently the fully-declared votes are 5 Nae, 5 Aye, and 3 Abstain (This includes "don't care").

I call shenanigans. There have been thus far, by my count, 5 explicit votes for "Aye", and only 2 explicit votes for "Nay", with 2 "Abstain"s. Chriky, kopaka, EmeraldPhoenix, Silverraptor, and Keveak have yet to cast their votes.
__________________
Now, if anyone wants to respond to a specific part of this, please just quote the bit your responding to.

[Threeshades]

I vote Nah!

[Almighty Salmon]

After reading all the posts about this and thinking about it, I vote Aye.

[Mina Kobold]

We have one. It's the hunt for the Keys to the Talisman of the Dragon King.

I was thinking more in the direction of Xiaolin Showdown rather than Dragonball, but it was just a random idea anyway.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Alright then, I'll link to the specific posts concerned.

{table]

Aye

|

Nae

|

Abstain

Almighty Salmon|chriky|Randomizer
Darklord Bright|EmeraldPhoenix|Silverraptor
Keris Rain|Keveak|
Kpenguin|Kopaka|
Ninja Chocobo|Lyinginbedmon|
The Gremlin|Squark|
Tiffanie Lirle|The Q|
|Threeshades|
||

7

|

8

|

2

[/table]

[Keris]

Alright then, I'll link to the specific posts concerned.

My point still stands, chriky, Kopaka, EmeraldPhoenix, Silverraptor, and Keveak have yet to cast their votes. You are counting implicit votes. I am counting, and objected to your tally of, explicit votes.

I'll even make my own tally of them.

{table=head]Aye|Nay|Abstain
kpenguin|Squark|The Randomizer
Keris|The Q|Mad Mask
Darklord Bright|Lyinginbedmon|
Ninja Chocobo|Threeshades|
The Gremlin|EmeraldPheonix|
Almighty Salmon|Kopaka|
Tiffanie Lirle|Keveak|
SinisterPenguin|Bayar*|
DoomITP||
||
9|8|2
{colsp=3}*conditions apply
[/table]

__________________________
EDIT: Above table superseded by a later tally.

[Tiffanie Lirle]

I'm changing my previous abstain vote to Aye.

I have no problem with Lying being around as a character, with a few tweaks here and there. Or even the citadel if it makes it's appearance.

But if I've read everything correctly then the current Lying comic would tag along all of Remember and it's related canon to FFF:r.

That is a bad thing.

FFF:r does not = FFF

[Lyinginbedmon]

But if I've read everything correctly then the current Lying comic would tag along all of Remember and it's related canon to FFF:r.

Except it doesn't, all it does is show Levistus, show him in a position of power, and show that he's got a history with Lying. Those are the only elements of Remember that are currently implied.

And I'm being very careful with page 2 to avoid explicitly stating/showing anything about the two that tags on any chunks of Remember, for this reason.

And besides, without the Sovices (Shown by the whole Sovice soap shtick), a substantial chunk of Remember is rendered non-canon immediately. So already I can't be tagging on Remember to FFF:R.

[Green-Shirt Q]

So I guess this means that any comic with reference to a backstory comic is automatically non-canon? That is the implication?

I don't think it's overplotting it. Unless it forces us to take the plot in a specific direction. And Remember is awesome, so I would say that taking anything from it onto FFF:r is a plus.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

My point still stands, Chriky, kopaka, EmeraldPhoenix, Silverraptor, and Keveak have yet to cast their votes. You are counting implicit votes. I am counting, and objected to your tally of, explicit votes.

I'll even make my own tally of them.

{table=head]Aye|Nay|Abstain
kpenguin|Squark|The Randomizer
Keris|The Q|
Darklord Bright|Lyinginbedmon|
Ninja Chocobo|Threeshades|
The Gremlin||
Almighty Salmon||
Tiffanie Lirle||
7|4|1[/table]

Hey, hold up there. I voted NAY.

And furthermore, Backstories are totally canon. Otherwise, what would be the point?

[Tiffanie Lirle]

And furthermore, Backstories are totally canon. Otherwise, what would be the point?

Because it's a backstory to a different plot.

Just as FFF:r does not = FFF
FFF:r Lying does not = FFF Lying

[Keris]

So I guess this means that any comic with reference to a backstory comic is automatically non-canon? That is the implication?

No. You're strawmanning. Don't. Any comic that dictates as canon a huge swath of material without any opportunity for input from the rest of ABR, and if said comic is objected to by numerous member of ABR should, in my opinion, be non-canon.

And Remember is awesome, so I would say that taking anything from it onto FFF:r is a plus.

The merits of Remember are subjective. I don't think that Remember is awesome, and I would say that taking anything from it onto FFF:R is a minus.

Hey, hold up there. I voted NAY.

You did not. You echoed Kopaka's post, which held no vote, and said "Poor Lying. Everyone hates him.". None of that constitutes an explicit vote.
I have added your "nay" to my tally, taking your most recent post as an explicit indication of your vote.

[Mina Kobold]

My point still stands, Chriky, kopaka, EmeraldPhoenix, Silverraptor, and Keveak have yet to cast their votes. You are counting implicit votes. I am counting, and objected to your tally of, explicit votes.

That is correct, I haven't voted nor will I vote.