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Thread: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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2009-11-25, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Will you please learn what the word infinite means?
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2009-11-25, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) is a concept in mathematics and philosophy that refers to a quantity without bound or end.
The attacks have a chance of having no end.
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2009-11-25, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Put it this way:
For any given interval of attacks, there is a probability associated with it of the attack stream ending right then and there. Maybe you have it absurdedly low.
As the limit tends to an infinite number of attacks, the probability of a long enough stream of '1's tends to 1. Which means that it is, in fact, NOT an infinite amount of attacks. Just an arbitrarily high amount. Therein lies the difference between finite and infinite."So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"
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2009-11-25, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2009-11-25 at 07:00 PM.
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2009-11-25, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 0 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 1 attack.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 2 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 5 attacks.
There's a chance that I hit with exactly 34676456 attacks.
If you add all those chances together for every number that exists, you get a number which is LESS than 1, for the best builds. Meaning there is a positive chance for me to attack a number of times that is not any writeable number, and exceeds any number you care to name. What do you call that, except an infinite number of attacks?
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2009-11-25, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Partially incorrect. For the natural numbers, the sum of the probabilities adds to one if there exists a chance of failure (fumbling), and zero if there does not exist a chance of failure (removing the ability to fumble, while recieving more attacks = an attack stream that doesn't stop).
"So Marbles, why do they call you Marbles?"
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2009-11-25, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
A very high number, but still not infinite. If there's even the smallest chance that your attacks will stop at some point, then your attacks will stop at some point. Guaranteed.
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2009-11-25, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Remember, for example, that 1/3 = .33333333333333333333333333333333333...,
2/3 = .66666666666666666666666666666666666666...,
and 3/3 = .99999999999999999999999999999999999999999..., which means that since 3/3 = 1, .99999999999999999999999999999999999999999... = 1. This is why if there is a chance of failure the probability of failure will reach 1 as the number of times reaches infinity - because math is confusing like that.
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2009-11-25, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
all that work... then the Dm throws nothing but crit immune zombies.... this would not be funny except that it is true that this would happen...
SpoilerA Fighter/Paladin will just hack you to bits
A Wizard/Sorcerer will just blow you up with a spell
A Rogue/Ranger/Monk will just kill you in your sleep
A Cleric/Druid will just squash you after buffing himself
A Bard will slowly twist your ethics, corrupt your morals, and make you do vile acts just for the chance to face him. When you fight him, he will have your family and friends fighting for him. For he wields the deadliest weapon against you and that is, his word against yours.
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2009-11-25, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Arbitrarily high. There are legitimate inifinite loops in D&D, but since the game deals with real numbers, the loop has to be non-terminating. Pun-pun, the greatest rules abuse in the game, does not have infinite ability scores.
Even if you have only a 5% (20/100=5) chance of any attack not generating another attack, eventually you will run out of attacks because 1/20 attacks will fail statistically. Eventually a long string of 1s will occur, whether this is part of the third iteration or after Graham's Number of iterations is irrelevant. Statistically you will roll 1 enough times to end the sequence, eventually. Therefore it's not infinite.
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2009-11-25, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
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2009-11-25, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
It does if the DM gives your enemy appallingly high Concealment chances, á la the way a lot of optimised wizards create their armor. I'd understood (and someone can correct me if I've got it wrong) that Concealment chance cuts across everything bar a natural 20, including critical hit damage. Assuming the insane number of attacks depends on a continual chain of guaranteed hits, I would've thought most decent Concealment applications have a 40% chance of shutting down this build.
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2009-11-25, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
I'm going to avoid typing out the full calculation I used, because it's hellish. If you want to continue arguing, I'll type it up, but tbh, you do not want to try and wrap you're brain around it. I'm in my second year studying maths at Cambridge uni, and it took a lot of tricks I've learned and a coupla hours of calculation. (Yes, I've seen the build before, it's on WotC optimisation board, and there's one on this board too...both use TWF kukris though.)
Here's a slightly simpler way of explaining it.
Every time you make an attack, if there's a 3/4 chance of critting and hitting, (hit+crit on a 6) you (on average) spawn 21/16 attacks.
Then, when you make your 21/16 attacks, you multiply the expected number of attacks by 21/16 to get the new number.
The expected number of attacks on your nth 'round' of attacks is (21/16)^n
And the chance of all of them missing is (1/4)^((21/16)^n)
We have to multiply by the probability that the solution hasn't failed yet
And then the sum of those is equal to just under 1/2, nowhere near 1.
The full solution relies on no less than 4 partial sums and 1 sum to infinity. You REALLY don't want to see this. I can provide it if you wish, but I suggest you don't.
EDIT: @Zeful,
The build I'm considering not only continues to generate attacks, but generates MORE attacks as time goes by. It becomes less and less probable for the sequence to end faster than we gain in chances due to sheer numbers of attacks.Last edited by term1nally s1ck; 2009-11-25 at 08:58 PM.
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2009-11-25, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
He's got a good point. You can still Crit against things immune to Critical Hits/Percision Damage. You still Crit, and can still confirm that it Crits, it just doesn't take the extra damage...
I seem to recall, probabbly from 3.0, of the psionic powers Embed Weapon which would let you graft two weapons onto your hands. Then manifest Duodimensional Hands to cheese the Crit-Range of whatever you're using... Forgive me if it goes pear-shaped, but I remember it working as such. No idea how it stacks...DM: The lake's surface ripples, sending a flock of ducks flying away as a pair of horns emerge from the water. Twin lances connect to a massive, skull-like head, jaws fairly dripping with acid. A long, sinewy neck descends beneath the water, cloudy and murky, hiding it's depth. "I've been waiting for someone to come looking after those pesky lancers..." The dragon grinned, sniffing the air. "And I hope you--"
Cleric: "OMG DUCKIES!"
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2009-11-25, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
So the build is defeated by a smokestick?
SpoilerA Fighter/Paladin will just hack you to bits
A Wizard/Sorcerer will just blow you up with a spell
A Rogue/Ranger/Monk will just kill you in your sleep
A Cleric/Druid will just squash you after buffing himself
A Bard will slowly twist your ethics, corrupt your morals, and make you do vile acts just for the chance to face him. When you fight him, he will have your family and friends fighting for him. For he wields the deadliest weapon against you and that is, his word against yours.
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2009-11-25, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Yeah, concealment tends to shut down the build, but it'll still get a fair few atttacks off against anything with concealment.
Interesting question....if you crit against a mirror image (as the spell), would you get an extra attack?
And since nobody answered, I'll ask again, do you roll once or twice to attack with a weapon with the splitting property?
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2009-11-25, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There's actually another reason it doesn't give you truly infinite attacks. Let's say you average 15 points of damage per hit (not real high, but you've sunk your resources into an absurdly large crit range). You're fighting a Cauchemar. The Cauchemar has 172 hit points. After around twelve hits, you're probably going to stop.
Unless you want to keep beating a dead horse, of course.Last edited by Jack Mann; 2009-11-25 at 09:29 PM.
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2009-11-25, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Well, I can think of a couple of scenarios it would be effective.
You have a weapon which deals negative levels somehow and want to buff an undead to ridiculous levels. (you need neg energy damage, or the undead to have DR high enough to not take much damage from normal attacks.)
The Tarrasque. This build can literally put the Tarrasque down, to the extent that it won't get back up for BILLIONS of years.
Can you crit when attacking an object? If so, this build can break the earth with enough time
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2009-11-25, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
I'm fairly sure that concealment negates natural 20s. Additionally, I'm not sure if concealment stops you from rolling a critical threat. This build relies on rolling crit threats, not hitting or critting. It may be entirely possible to effectively ignore concealment, if it's only negating 40% of your nigh-infinite number of attacks.
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2009-11-25, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
The paladin spell Bless Weapon makes all threats become auto-crits, but doesn't work with weapons that already have some critical enhancing ability.
But I think that one of the abilities of the Fist of Raziel PrC is to gain this auto confirm against evil creatures when using a smite. Unlike the Bless Weapon spell, it does stack with others critical-enhancing abilities. So, if you can afford a level of paladin and a level of Fist of Raziel, you could at least have an auto crit against some creatures once or twice a day.
edit:
No, because the earth (or whatever planet) is an object, therefore immune to critical hits. There are better ways to destroy the world in D&D, though...Last edited by Roderick_BR; 2009-11-25 at 09:52 PM.
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2009-11-25, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Just being immune to crits isn't enough, they still threaten and confirm, just don't do extra damage, so they do proc extra attacks. Personally, I think destroying the planet as a standard action at mid-teens ( I think....we don't need too much warblade to get the stance we want and the feats...how much weaponmaster do we need?) in level seems pretty good tbh.
I don't think our weapons have any crit enhancing ability....Improved critical, DoD and weaponmaster levels are all that are used.
@sofawall: Concealment does indeed cause a problem, but if you have enough + to hits from blood on the water, and if you have a good crit threat range, the build can still go infinite vs concealment. As usual, though, true seeing would be very nice to negate some of that miss chance.
I'm sad I can't have the mega-undead...it looked so fun but guess I forgot to check that one properly, I just went by memory, since enervation is the only time I usually come across neg levels in most games.
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2009-11-25, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
This build cannot go infinite even with no concealment, unless I;m missing something.
Is there a way to get infinite rerolls or ways to treat nat 1s as something else, even if just for one round?
Also, why do you even bring up to-hit in a discussion about concealment? +10065 to-hit against -10 AC will still miss 50% of the time if the person with -10 AC is blinking.Last edited by sofawall; 2009-11-25 at 10:27 PM.
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2009-11-25, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
There is a feat from one of the completes that lets rogues treat nat 1s as nat 20s
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2009-11-25, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-11-25, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Highest Possible Crit Range?
Because if I only hit on 11s, and you're blinking, I only hit 1/4 of the time.
And yes, the build can go infinite, I spent a while writing out some of the maths to prove it. the 7-20 threat range which can hit on a 2 has a 60/133 chance to never run out of attacks, with each attack it makes. It doesn't hit with every attack, and it's not a guarantee that it'll go infinite....but if you get 3 attacks, and you hit with a 2 on all of them (Blood on the Water, hit rats. a lot.) then you get an 83.5% chance to go infinite that turn.
@aethernox is that the d2 trick? I love that trick, it's just funny.
Halfling: I poke him with my tiny dagger (basically a letter opener
DM: The impact completely destroys him, and nothing is left.