3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)

[jiriku]

I do see some loopholes that can be exploited/abused.

Lay on Hands: It looks like nothing prevents the paladin from proactively dumping Turn Undead attempts into LoH while the pool is full. This means that, for example, a paladin 5 with Cha 16 can deal 105 damage to an undead creature once per day. A paladin 10 with Cha 20 can deal 450 damage. A paladin 20 with Cha 24 can deal 1,540 damage.

I recognize that the ability is somewhat limited by requiring a touch attack, but effectively the paladin has, from level 5, the ability to one-shot any undead BBEG. The DM is effectively forced to use undead only as mooks. You could close this loophole by change this:

A Paladin may convert a use of Turn Undead into a number of Healing points for Lay on Hands equal to his Paladin level x his Charisma bonus as a Free Action.

To this:

A Paladin may expend a use of Turn Undead to refresh his Lay on Hands healing pool to its full maximum value as a Free Action.

This will require you to cost the resurrection abilities differently. I'd suggest you might add a caveat that the paladin can burn Turn Undead attempts as pool-equivalents, but only when raising a fallen ally.

Additionally, the ability to repeatedly activate true resurrection without XP or GP cost is a Tier 1 power, even at level 18. I'd recommend you tag it with an XP cost for the paladin.

Gift of the Martyr: This needs a little bit of explanation around the "non-damaging effects", or people will start to make IRON HEART SUUUUURGE jokes. As written, you can redirect the penalties for light sensitivity, the effects of drowning, heatstroke or frostbite, and many other very silly things. Also, if an ally is targeted with a spell that carries a non-damaging effect (say, implosion), is the effect transferred before or after the saving throw is rolled? If it's transferred after, I'm ok with that, but if it's transferred before, so that the paladin makes the save instead, that's a Tier 1 level power because of the synergy with Divine Providence.

Divine Aegis: Improving the ability for allies should have an action cost. D&D is a game about taking actions, and all of the Tier 3 classes have to pay actions to activate their short-duration powers. I'd suggest a swift action is appropriate.

Greater Smite: OK, so, running numbers, a 14th-level paladin with Cha 22 can use greater smite against undead foes to gain +20 to hit and +40 to damage, bypassing DR/good and rolling 2d20 keep highest to hit, three times per encounter? This is balanced for an offensively oriented 14th level character, but the numbers are a little large for a defensively oriented character.

[Mystic Muse]

To be honest, I don't think many players will use all of their turn undead attempts to do that unless they're that desperate. Just because an ability can be abused doesn't mean that players that are actually nice people will do so. I know I wouldn't burn a ton of attempts to kill an undead BBEG unless I had no other choice.

If you're going to remove one abusable thing from this class I'd say you'd have to do the same for other classes too.

I think you're right about this though Jiriku

Gift of the Martyr: This needs a little bit of explanation around the "non-damaging effects", or people will start to make IRON HEART SUUUUURGE jokes. As written, you can redirect the penalties for light sensitivity, the effects of drowning, heatstroke or frostbite, and many other very silly things. Also, if an enemy is targeted with a spell that carries a non-damaging effect (say, implosion), is the effect transferred before or after the saving throw is rolled? If it's transferred after, I'm ok with that, but if it's transferred before, so that the paladin makes the save instead, that's a Tier 1 level power because of the synergy with Divine Providence.

[Surrealistik]

Lay on Hands:

Damage vs Undead/Evil Outsiders: The Paladin cannot expend more Healing Points in this way with any single use of Lay on Hands than his Charisma Modifier x his class level.

True Resurrection Effect: Now costs 500 XP per HD of the target to be resurrected, or the standard diamond is required, or the Paladin has to be in current and immediate possession of a powerful holy artifact of his patron deity.

Gift of the Martyr: Only non-damaging effects that can be cured or removed with the Lay on Hands ability may now be transferred with Gift of the Martyr.

Divine Aegis: I'm not convinced each increment of empowerment for allies should require a Swift Action; this seems too prohibitive.

Greater Smite: Defense is its keystone and specialization, but so is laying the conditional smack-down on evil aligned enemies, particularly undead and evil outsiders. I do not see an issue with the Paladin's capabilities here.

[Mystic Muse]

I feel like the Paladin could use some new skills or maybe get more skills per level. For example, despite Strength being one of its most important stats, none of his skills have Strength as an ability modifier. I'd say at least give them jump,climb, and/or swim as class skills.

[Surrealistik]

Agree. Added Jump and Climb to class skills.

[jiriku]

Huh. Kyuubi has a good point. For that matter, you might do well to increase skills per level to 4. Thing is, the hallmark of a Tier 3 character is versatility. Spellcasters get versatility through their spell selection, but noncasters generally have to use skills to do it. Paladin spellcasting is really focused, and generally doesn't overlap much with the options provided by skills.

[paddyfool]

I don't know... Paladins make sense to me as having a narrow, focused skill set, but being really good at it.

Maybe give them a slightly broader list, stick to 2+Int skills, but give them a class ability (or feat?) that allows them to burn a turn undead attempt to double their effective skill ranks for any single check. So when they really have to pull out an awesome speech, placate an oncoming horde, or ride a rampaging landshark, they can. They just can't do it all the time. (Also, it should scale with level nicely).

[Mystic Muse]

I don't know... Paladins make sense to me as having a narrow, focused skill set, but being really good at it.

Maybe give them a slightly broader list, stick to 2+Int skills, but give them a class ability (or feat?) that allows them to burn a turn undead attempt to double their effective skill ranks for any single check. So when they really have to pull out an awesome speech, placate an oncoming horde, or ride a rampaging landshark, they can. They just can't do it all the time. (Also, it should scale with level nicely).

personally, I'd rather have two extra skill points per level so I'm not shoehorned into specific skills.

EDIT: I think the Paladin should also get detect good at some level. If the DM decides to use something like the succubus Paladin then your alignment is kind of screwed. Most Paladins wouldn't really trust evil outsiders.

[Pechvarry]

Looking at tier 3s, they all have either MORE than 2+int skills/level OR a good chunk of spell power -- duskblade squeaks through with the "weakest" chassis having only 5th level spells and 2+int skills (as far as I know, they're the only full-BAB class with all knowledge skills as class skills, though).

On the one hand, that makes me say "they could really use the versatility of 4+int" but on the other, you may as well balance them around having 2+ skills. Dunno, up to Surrealistik.

[Mystic Muse]

Looking at tier 3s, they all have either MORE than 2+int skills/level OR a good chunk of spell power -- duskblade squeaks through with the "weakest" chassis having only 5th level spells and 2+int skills (as far as I know, they're the only full-BAB class with all knowledge skills as class skills, though).

On the one hand, that makes me say "they could really use the versatility of 4+int" but on the other, you may as well balance them around having 2+ skills. Dunno, up to Surrealistik.

Allow the Paladin to get wizard spells like the feat "Sword of the arcane order" instead of Paladin spells or in addition to and you don't have to give them more skill points. But, that'd probably make the Paladin a higher tier.

[ericgrau]

I had a detailed commentary but it boils down to the cha based bonuses all provide a large enough bonus to basically give immunity to everything for more times per day than you'll ever need.

Personally I don't believe in the tiers, and results like this only serve to reinforce that notion. When you have tiers based on versatility and yet you rename this to power levels, the response is phenomenal boosts to the power of "low tiers" yet without giving them more offensive versatility. Here we have an almost literally indestructible machine of death and yet you set down one wall of force or fly off and he's out of the way. So of course every paladin should now have winged boots and a cape of the mountebank for dimension door, or a friendly caster providing the same (teamwork? blasphemy!), but that's how it was with the original class anyway. The difference is now your only options are either to still be neutralized just as easily as before or to break the game. There is no longer anything left in between like there used to be in civil games of D&D.

[Surrealistik]

I had a detailed commentary but it boils down to the cha based bonuses all provide a large enough bonus to basically give immunity to everything for more times per day than you'll ever need.

Personally I don't believe in the tiers, and results like this only serve to reinforce that notion. When you have tiers based on versatility and yet you rename this to power levels, the response is phenomenal boosts to the power of "low tiers" yet without giving them more offensive versatility. Here we have an almost literally indestructible machine of death and yet you set down one wall of force or fly off and he's out of the way. So of course every paladin should now have winged boots and a cape of the mountebank for dimension door, or a friendly caster providing the same (teamwork? blasphemy!), but that's how it was with the original class anyway. The difference is now your only options are either to still be neutralized just as easily as before or to break the game. There is no longer anything left in between like there used to be in civil games of D&D.

You seem to be ignoring Scouring Light which can be used as a targeted, AoE or single target Greater Dispelling, with an effectively uncapped caster level that doubles as direct damage versus evil targets, and shuts down most of the usual 'win buttons' previously effective versus the Paladin when coupled with LoH and his immunities. Here both the need for offensive versatility and 'shut down' countermeasures is addressed. Further offensive versatility is found in the Blade of Virtue properties. Smite Evil in the meanwhile allows the Paladin to deal with virtually any Evil opponent.

As to the Paladin being 'immune to everything' more often than needed, that really depends on the intensity of combat and the type of effects used. In actuality, the Paladin is vulnerable to many spells and effects, and his Turn Undead budget is pulled in a thousand different directions, being required for offense and defense alike; when subject to several challenging battles per day, _and_ using Gift of the Martyr to tank for your buddies, you're either going to run dry, or will have to prioritize and conserve.


As to the skill point issue, I don't mind giving Paladins 2 more SP per level. I don't see it breaking the class whatsoever.

[Mystic Muse]

Glad to see so much new interest in your Paladin Surrealistik?

[Surrealistik]

Don't mind it at all; were only my Spy/Sorc threads as responsive :P.

[Mystic Muse]

Don't mind it at all; were only my Spy/Sorc threads as responsive :P.

well, I'll take a look at the sorceror. Got a link?

[Surrealistik]

Link's in my sig.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, here's what I see about the Sorceror.

pros: nice abilities, actual thematic class features,
cons: The spells known list is still pretty abysmal compared to the wizard.

I like the eschew materials abilities.

Due to the spells known issue I can't really choose spells that are "Just for fun" with the Sorcerer if I want to be effective. I'm still inclined to choose wizard because of that. The Sorcerer is supposed to be a versatile class, but, due to low spells known, the wizard still beats it in versatility as far as I can tell, and versatility is the reason tier one classes are, well, tier one.

An example of this. Assuming I choose the collegiate wizard feat, I get 4 ninth level spells known. Add two to each level after that (6 8th, 8 7th ETC.) and, with first level spells, assuming I have 18 intelligence at first level I get 26 known. This is before any other modifiers outside of the wizard class and the collegiate wizard feat. I could also take the illusion mastery variant to get 18 extra illusion spells known or one of the domain variants to get 9 extra predetermined spells known. I also get every single cantrip ever printed. ignoring cantrips for a second that gives me 114 spells known before any outside suorces like other wizards. Even with the normal wizard you get over twice as many spells as the Sorcerer without any modifiers.



As a Sorcerer, I get 9 cantrips, 5 first and second level spells, 4 spells from 3-5th, and 3 from 6th-9th for a total of 43 spells known. I think I'm going to go with the wizard.

I'll ask a mod if I can put these critiques in the thread itself tomorrow.

[Surrealistik]

Due to the spells known issue I can't really choose spells that are "Just for fun" with the Sorcerer if I want to be effective. I'm still inclined to choose wizard because of that. The Sorcerer is supposed to be a versatile class, but, due to low spells known, the wizard still beats it in versatility as far as I can tell, and versatility is the reason tier one classes are, well, tier one.

While it's true that the Sorcerer still lacks in versatility for the most part, this changes the moment his Mind's Desire ability comes into play at level 14, allowing him to convert spell slots into virtually any Arcane spell he desires.

Contest of Wills lets you pseudo diversify, turning your opponent's spells against them, whatever they might be. It is also an outlet for excess spell slots.

Lastly, the Sorcerer can now freely exchange as many spells he likes upon leveling, allowing him to completely redefine his spells known.


EDIT: Reworked Mind's Desire so that the Sorcerer can begin to use it at Level 7, but it requires 3 times the desired spell's level in total spell slot expenditure until Level 14.

[Mystic Muse]

One last criticism of the Paladin class. Detect evil, as written, is beyond useless. How about at tenth level it tells you why the target is evil. Be it subtype, actions, or something else. It makes it possible to avoid killing succubus Paladins or something else that makes the person appear as evil. (Like Xykon's crown in OOTS.) At 17th (hey, you have to have something there) it bypasses alignment concealment.

Or some other level. I'm not sure what level bypassing alignment concealment is a valid option.

And to be clearer, it just tells you what the target does that makes it evil. Not each and every action that's affected it's alignment.

[Surrealistik]

What I may do is improve the AoE and rapidity of Detect Evil, having its area and rapidity (so you don't have to focus for 3 rounds) upgrade incrementally with class level. Later on it will grant additional details (does the target have an Evil subtype or Taint? It probably shouldn't let you know why if only actions are the reason) and be able to penetrate alignment misdirecting/obfuscating spells and effects with a successful opposed caster level check, using the Paladin's class level and Wisdom modifier.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, that sounds good to me. I just figured it should actually be of some use or not exist.

[Surrealistik]

Detect Evil now upgrades with class levels as follows:

At the 7th class level, the Paladin gains the ability to gauge the nature of a subject's evil much more clearly, while the range of his eldritch insight expands. With a fourth round of study, the Paladin is able to determine whether or not the target detects as Evil due to Taint, magic (including curses), personality and actions, and/or a subtype.
Finally, the range of Detect Evil increases by 30 feet plus 30 feet times the Paladin's Wisdom modifier (minimum 30 feet).

At the 11th class level, the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil becomes penetrating, shattering physical and mystical barriers alike to see through to the truth. The Paladin now makes an opposed caster level check using the total of his class level and Wisdom modifier as his caster level to penetrate illusions, spells and effects that obfuscate, redirect or block Detect Evil's alignment detection.
It furthermore is able pass through physical barriers much more effectively, penetrating two plus his Wisdom modifier (minimum 2) times the normal amount of material.

At the 17th class level, the Paladin's concentration and mastery of Detect Evil is such that he requires only one round of study to garner all information obtainable with it.

[Mystic Muse]

One thing I noticed a little while ago. The Celestial template gives the mount Spell resistance. Depending on the mount, the Paladin may eventually become incapable of bypassing the spell resistance due to having a caster level equal to only one half their level. I just noticed that going to happen to my Paladin mount. It's due to a different source that's higher but I thought I'd bring it up.

[Surrealistik]

One thing I noticed a little while ago. The Celestial template gives the mount Spell resistance. Depending on the mount, the Paladin may eventually become incapable of bypassing the spell resistance due to having a caster level equal to only one half their level. I just noticed that going to happen to my Paladin mount. It's due to a different source that's higher but I thought I'd bring it up.

Ah yes, fixed.

You can now choose to ignore your mount's spell resistance, and your mount gains the ability to share spells with you as if it had the familiar ability .

Revisiting my 3.5 brew, so feel free to provide further recommendations/fixes.