The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[JKTrickster]

Wow I've always been interested in this project, although I never quite had the time. But now that its the summer I think I actually have some free time to devote to this.

About the base classes idea, I have an interesting suggestion:

as a whole, why not let The Age of Warriors mainly deal with the history and fluff of the disciplines, and only those disciplines? The first part of the book will be the history, the fluff, etc.

The second part will be a complete list of each discipline and their legacy weapons.

And that'll be it. Why?

Because someone else is currently starting their own ToB book correct? Why not let this book handle alternate base classes, etc.?

Splitting up these two might seem weird, but it allows less work for the two groups, which in turn means the two products can be produced easier.

Of course, the two books will still be related to each other and still draw heavily from each other. But I don't see why one group can't separately work on disciplines while others work on base classes. The fluff of the history has more to do with the disciplines themselves than actual base classes. So why not?

I'm only not quite sure about PrCs. A lot of the PrCs were based on certain disciplines, while others were not. Perhaps we could split those up?

What do you guys think about my suggestion? I know it's a little weird so feel free to criticize it. Its a suggestion after all.

EDIT: This is in large part taken from JoshuaZ's post. I agree that the flavor of this project doesn't naturally include base classes at all. So why bother? We can have all the base classes (and some of the PrCs maybe?) in the other ToB project. After all that's what they are planning and there's already so many great homebrewed Base Classes out there anyway.

[Elfin]

That might not be a bad idea.

Oh, by the way, DracoDei, the reason I didn't originally include Falling Anvil was that I thought it was more of a joke discipline, rather than one meant to fit with the canon.

[JoshuaZ]

Moving all the base classes over might not be a bad idea (we'll need permission from the people who made them). I'm more worried about moving the PrCs since a lot of them are deeply connected to specific disciplines. For example, my Seeker of Lost Swords really only works well with the Narrow Bridge discipline. I think most of the base classes won't have this sort of issue as much. As of right now, what base classes are there that are listed for Age of Warriors?

[dspeyer]

I dislike the idea of splitting out. I really want the finished product to feel like a coherent whole: classes and disciplines referencing each-other when appropriate. We know which disciplines can be added to each of the original base classes, but not to which of the homebrew base classes.

[dspeyer]

Spreadsheet for the base classes Elliot20 gathered back at the beginning: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...hMGZGSXc&hl=en
Should be world-writable.

[DracoDei]

Oh, by the way, DracoDei, the reason I didn't originally include Falling Anvil was that I thought it was more of a joke discipline, rather than one meant to fit with the canon.

It is both. In serious campaigns it doesn't exist. In silly ones it is an integrated part of the canon. I take my homebrew mechanics seriously, even when they are also humorous.

[JoshuaZ]

Spreadsheet for the base classes Elliot20 gathered back at the beginning: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...hMGZGSXc&hl=en
Should be world-writable.

Ok. That has an issue. The Martial Soul is listed there as a base class but is a PrC. That should get moved over to the PrC list if isn't there already.

[Frog Dragon]

Incidentally, in that base class table. What is the Martial Soul doing there? It's a PRC.
Edit: Got shafted by the 1 post/minute limit. Didn't notice until now, and got swordsage'd. Joy.

[Eldan]

The argumentation regarding new base classes seems to make sense, so I'll leave that. Anyone interested in starting a Legacy Weapon sub-project,then? I'll have to re-read the exact rules, but we can certainly start on fluff already.

[JKTrickster]

I dislike the idea of splitting out. I really want the finished product to feel like a coherent whole: classes and disciplines referencing each-other when appropriate. We know which disciplines can be added to each of the original base classes, but not to which of the homebrew base classes.

Well....how about a collaboration? Each separate group works on their part and then brings it whole again?

The deal is that for the disciplines and such, the major challenge is organizing the fluff, and determining their relative balance to each other. Very little of that actually involves the base classes (and some of the PrCs) in any significant way.

But of course such a collaboration requires the other group to agree. They might not like a collaboration idea. But I don't get why the would re-homebrew a lot of material that's already been done.

As for the PrCs: they get their own section called the Masters of the Sublime Way. That I guess everyone can work on, since there are so many of them.

Also, DracoDei, wouldn't that mean in the final project we'll need a specific sidebar telling DMs how to use Falling Anvil, and only if they want to? Just something to look out for.

And I definitely want to work on the legacy weapons. Great idea! But sadly all the current ones are just so bad

[Eldan]

Well, no reason to not make them better, then.

Another thing: I was a little bored the last few hours, so in breaks, I wrote down a few ideas for a new style, based on Yugoloths, since we already have several styles for Devils and Demons, but none for Daemons, my favourite evil outsiders. Now, my question is mostly if the niche I thought of after looking over Dread Crown, Black Heron, Witch Razor, Infinite Torment and Ninefold Damnation is taken or not.
The idea was to make the discipline bluff-based (Yugoloths lie, after all), and make it's main effects mind-affecting: getting enemies to kill each other, making them hesitate to strike you, things like that. Has something like that been done or is it sufficiently different to warrant it's own style?

My (disorganized) notes, so far, look like this:

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Wasting Lies: Yugoloth Style

Associated Skill: Bluff
Weapons: Dagger, ? (Hidden Weapons?)


Thematic: Trickery

Ideas:
Terrible Truth: Bluff check as a boost to demoralize foe. Stronger version: fear effect
Stygian Spindrift (Boost or Strike): Enemy forgets his actions
Deceptive Ease: Bluff check to lure enemy into attacking, make counter-attack of opportunity if he misses
All Hope Lost (Strike) Remove morale effects from enemies
Mental Void: Mind Blank-like stance. Immune to charms, compulsions
Fatal Reluctance: give enemy a penalty to attack you on a failed will save
Dissent in the Ranks: adjacent enemies attack each other

[The-Mage-King]

Hm... My current notes on my discipline that's in progress...

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Name: Hero's Edge.

Role: slaying things much bigger than you.

Favored weapons: Swords. Ranging from Longsword to Fullblade. If they're a size category bigger, they're better.

Current ideas for maneuvers:

Blade Run: deal damage based on how far you run on an enemy.

Absurbly sharp blade: overcome DR depending on level.

Blade beam: use a sword to kill things from a distance with an energy beam.

Earth Shield: kick up ground to block attacks.

Suggestions?

[Eldan]

If you want efficiency against larger foes, have a look at the Gnome Giant Slayer, and that tactical feat which helps against larger foes. Forgot the name.

Attacking from underneath foes, or climbing up their backs is always very thematic. Usually, fighting large foes also includes dodging their attacks, since, if we are going by fluff instead of the actual rule effects, a full hit would splatter you.

[DracoDei]

Also, DracoDei, wouldn't that mean in the final project we'll need a specific sidebar telling DMs how to use Falling Anvil, and only if they want to? Just something to look out for.

That is one solution. Personally I favor having it all mixed into the same paragraphs, just in a different (wacky looking) font, but others would vastly prefer an appendix, so that is what we are headed for at the moment... but really what I want is that it should be very easy to find and remember everything you need, both with and without Falling Anvil. Sidebars, Appendix, Different Fonts... whatever makes that happen is good with me. Read earlier in this thread... there was quite a (polite) discussion on the issue.

Example follows (although it may not be a wacky enough font):

The fighting grew even heavier on the third day, with the Shadow Tiger Horde pressing the attack from all directions. Mira Sepuk, Grand Pooba of Ridiculousness, and president of the dorm that those infected with Falling Anvil were quarantined in, begged permission of the Council of Masters to escape, since it was obvious that the aim of the horde was nothing less than the elimination of Reshar's legacy. She was granted this, provided she took as many other students as she could with her. The next day she mounted the battlements in clothing made of paper, and constructed the second largest slingshot ever to be historically documented. The ones being left behind bit their tongues at her odd mode of dress, and it was not until she was being helped into the cup of the slingshot along-side the other passengers to be fired that it was realized that she was wearing a copy of some of Reshar's teachings, thus saving a few more chapters with her, since her pack was overflowing with books of the great teacher's words. The method to her madness brought tears to the eyes of the one helping her (whose name has been lost to history), but it is known that he or she swore bloody vengeance on the spot on any who would there-after claim that the Path Of The Falling Anvil was fundamentally disrespectful to the Nine Paths. Of those fired, only one was intercepted mid-air, and even that one slew his foe in a free-fall duel before crashing to her death on the earth below. Mira and about half of the others fired fled to attempt to preserve Reshar's legacy elsewhere, while the rest turned back to attack the rear of the Shadow Horde in concert with the efforts of Mr. Senko. Matthew Senko, an illusionist of the Shadowhand school, managed to delay the Horde with a brilliantly executed foray comprised mostly of illusionary troops who he conjured up further illusions of individual Rakasha illusions to fight against, thus simulating a death-or-glory charge that diverted the attacks on all but the main gate. He died leading the charge, but not before creating sufficient chaos to allow the defenders time to repair several damaged portions of the walls.

Err... that turned out better than I was expecting! Can I get some PEACH to confirm or deny that I just managed to combine Wiley Coyote with The "Faithful Wives of Winsor" (I think it was Winsor) and produce something at least halfway awesome?

[JoshuaZ]

Err... that turned out better than I was expecting! Can I get some PEACH to confirm or deny that I just managed to combine Wiley Coyote with The "Faithful Wives of Winsor" (I think it was Winsor) and produce something at least halfway awesome?

That is awesome and deeply amusing. It also makes me more convinced that an appendix is a better solution in that one has this text otherwise disrupting serious text in a way which hurts reading the rest seriously.

[The-Mage-King]

Err... that turned out better than I was expecting! Can I get some PEACH to confirm or deny that I just managed to combine Wiley Coyote with The "Faithful Wives of Winsor" (I think it was Winsor) and produce something at least halfway awesome?

Err... "Horde", not "Hoard". Unless the attacking army was made of treasure, that is...

[DracoDei]

That is awesome and deeply amusing.

Thank you.

It also makes me more convinced that an appendix is a better solution in that one has this text otherwise disrupting serious text in a way which hurts reading the rest seriously.

Are you taking into account the fact that the final version will have access to more sharply divergent fonts than are available on these boards, making it easier for the eye to skip past the silly sections? There was also talk of slanting them up or down a 10 degrees or something. I am trying not to take sides, but it is hard to manage.

Err... "Horde", not "Hoard". Unless the attacking army was made of treasure, that is...

Drat, I THOUGHT it ended in an "e"... just couldn't quite come up with it.
*Goes off to fix.*

EDIT: While I was at it, I sub-ed in "Arial Black" for the "standard" text in my example, and changed the "skip this unless your group has a standard XP award calculation for making the GM squirt his or her drink out of his nose" to Indigo, just to see if it helped any. I am hardly a master of the psychology (ergonomics?) of font design, and I strongly suspect that there is someone on this project who knows ten times as much about such things as I do.

Incidentally, I realize that I probably got a lot of terminology and time-line wrong with my example (such desperate measures probably would have waited longer than the third day of what was probably a siege of months if my vague recollections are correct), but it was just an off the cuff example... the actually back-bone of the plot turned out pretty good, so I thinking I will make the daring escape of Mira, The Grand Pooba of Ridiculousness part of the version of the canon I suspect I am the person in charge of by default... Matthew Senko, the Shadow Hand illusionist's ploy I will leave up to others to decide about.

[JoshuaZ]

The font change helps a little bit, but it still seems disruptive to the general approach. It seems like read, skip, read, skip, is difficult. I suspect that this is related to general interference effects when trying to read.

[Elfin]

I agree; in my opinion, the "split text" approach, while funny, makes the whole thing seem like a bit of a comedy.
Personally, I think it would work better to have a sidebar about incorporating Falling Anvil.

[DracoDei]

I agree; in my opinion, the "split text" approach, while funny, makes the whole thing seem like a bit of a comedy.
Personally, I think it would work better to have a sidebar about incorporating Falling Anvil.

Strategically placed sidebars (note plural) appeal to me (not as much as what I was proposing before, but remember also my statement of my goals, and disclaimer of expertise in the science of how to solve the matter), in that they don't force scrolling back and forth large distances through the PDF to piece everything together in the same way that an appendix would. I would still recommend a weird font, color, and/or slant, at least for the sidebar titles, simply because those aren't going to be the ONLY sidebars in the work in all likelihood and we want the non-silly readers to be able to pick out which ones to skip at glance.

[Elfin]

That seems like a great idea to me.

Ok; before I start working in earnest, I want to make sure I have all the lesser disciplines covered...here's my current list: is anything missing?

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Army of One
Black Lotus
Blood Sage
Broken Blade
Chthonic Serpent
Coin's Edge
Dancing Leaf
Dark Heron
Dread Crown
Falcon's Eye
Falling Wave
Falling Anvil
Far Realm
Fool's Grip
Desert Wind variants (Frozen Zephyr / Acidic Fog / Shocking Sky / Gentle Breeze)
Golden Saint
Holy Word
Infinite Torment
Iron Rain
Kaleidoscopic Dream
Knowing Heart
Leaping Gale
Lost Lyrics
Masked Moon
Mental Grip
Monkey Paw
Mystic Cobra
Narrow Bridge
Nightingale Feather
Ninefold Damnation
Ocean Soul
Ocean Tempest
Oncoming Storm
Phoenix Feather
Piercing Point
Placid Lake
Quicksilver Aegis
Rending Scream
Scarlet Bravura
Scarlet Rose
Silver Crane
Silver Pegasus
Sleeping Goddess
Solaris Arcanum
Steel Mountain
True Arrow
Twin Spirit
Way of the Gear
Witch Razor
Untamed Essence
Viper Fang

Edit - Mage King, that sounds like a great idea for a discipline.

[DracoDei]

Is the issue one of flavor? I think that may be one. It seems like the way Age of Warriors is being set up, the flavor of ToB as a special set of techniques (and the history of the Temple of Nine Swords) is being strongly integrated. While it might be nice to have ToB versions of every melee class, it doesn't quite fit flavorwise with this particular project.

Actually it MIGHT, since the idea COULD be that the sublime way* , has become ubiquitous enough that it has influenced every successful band of thieves, walker of wild paths, etc etc... OTOH it isn't like Full-Casters need either the help (if it is a straight upgrade) or a dilution of their flavor (if it isn't).

*(or in my case, wearing a lime on the top of one's hat)

[The-Mage-King]

Posted my first few maneuvers for that discipline here. Mind giving me some advice?

[DracoDei]

That seems like a great idea to me.

Ok; before I start working in earnest, I want to make sure I have all the lesser disciplines covered...here's my current list: is anything missing?

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Army of One
Black Lotus
Blood Sage
Broken Blade
Chthonic Serpent
Coin's Edge
Dancing Leaf
Dark Heron
Dread Crown
Falling Anvil
Falling Star
Far Realm
Fool's Grip
Golden Saint
Holy Word
Kaleidoscopic Dream
Lost Lyrics
Narrow Bridge
Ninefold Damnation
Ocean Soul
Quicksilver Aegis
Scarlet Bravura
Sleeping Goddess
Solaris Arcanum
Twin Spirit
Witch Razor
Untamed Essence

Edit - Mage King, that sounds like a great idea for a discipline.

Actually, as I understand it, we are using Pheonix Feather, Falcon's Eye, and Iron Rain instead of Falling Star and other bow-focused disciplines.

[dspeyer]

That seems like a great idea to me.

Ok; before I start working in earnest, I want to make sure I have all the lesser disciplines covered...here's my current list: is anything missing?

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Army of One
Black Lotus
Blood Sage
Broken Blade
Chthonic Serpent
Coin's Edge
Dancing Leaf
Dark Heron
Dread Crown
Falling Anvil
Falling Star
Far Realm
Fool's Grip
Golden Saint
Holy Word
Kaleidoscopic Dream
Lost Lyrics
Narrow Bridge
Ninefold Damnation
Ocean Soul
Quicksilver Aegis
Scarlet Bravura
Sleeping Goddess
Solaris Arcanum
Twin Spirit
Witch Razor
Untamed Essence

The others are:

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Falcon's Eye
Falling Wave
Frozen Zephyr / Acidic Fog / Shocking Sky
Gentle Breeze
Infinite Torment
Iron Rain
Knowing Heart
Leaping Gale
Masked Moon
Mental Grip
Mystic Cobra
Ocean Tempest
Oncoming Storm
Nightingale Feather
Placid Lake
Rending Scream
Scarlet Rose
Silver Crane
Silver Pegasus
Steel Mountain
The Discipline of the Lost Lyrics
True Arrow
Untamed Essence
Viper Fang
Way of the Gear

[Elfin]

I have Lost Lyrics and Untamed Essence in there, but I'll add I've added the others.
Thanks.

Now to get to work...

[JoshuaZ]

Sidebars seem ok also. The point about it not requiring some sort of back and forth flipping is a good one.

[Eldan]

People... I just wanted to start a new Legacy Weapon thread and counted the Disciplines. On those lists above, there's 52 of them. Can we really come up with that many unique legacies?

[Iferus]

If we can come up with that much disciplines, I think we can.

And by we, I mean you guys. I'm just an interested thread reader.

[Eldan]

Right. We can try, at least.

Anyway, working on my own discipline again.
a) Would people think that a counter that replaced your AC with a bluff check result is overpowered, given that there's stuff like Glibness which make bluff checks really easy to optimize? Probably not, I think.
b) What would an appropriate level for that be?