Question Regarding Monstrous PCs

[StoryKeeper]

Certain members of my group and I can't seem to agree on how you're supposed to treat the monstrous hit dice for monstrous pc's.

It's my understanding that you HAVE to take the Monstrous Hit Dice, treating those as levels like Class levels, and then add the level adjustment to that to determine your Effective Character Level.

For example, hypothetical PC decides to play a Monster X. Monster X characters have 2 monstrous hit dice and a +3 level adjustment. Soooo, if the PC plays Monster X as his race and takes 3 levels in fighter, he's considered a Level 8 character as far as ECL.

My friend says that you HAVE to take the level adjustment, but that the Monstrous Hit Dice are optional. His reasoning here is that by not taking the Hit Dice, you lose the benefits they give you. I am of the opinion that the hit dice are mandatory to make the character balanced.

For example, the hypothetial PC decides to play Monster X (as in the example above), but decides he doesn't want the Monstrous Hit Dice. This means that if he plays Monster X as his race and takes 3 levels of fighter, he's only a level 6 character as far as ECL.

How are we supposed to play it?

[Grumman]

You are right and your friend is wrong.

[Yuki Akuma]

You're both right.

You can elect not to take the racial hit dice... if you have a racial class progression and if you don't mind losing out on quite a lot of abilities.

But you can't get all the abilities without taking all of the hit dice.

So, say, if you make an Illithid and don't take the eight racial hit dice... well, no eighth-level Psion manifesting for you. And you won't get the obscene mental stats, either.

[NEO|Phyte]

You can elect not to take the racial hit dice... if you have a racial class progression and if you don't mind losing out on quite a lot of abilities.

Actually, last I was aware, you aren't allowed to multiclass out of monster classes, unless they changed that rule since Savage Species.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, last I was aware, you aren't allowed to multiclass out of monster classes, unless they changed that rule since Savage Species.

As far as I'm aware they changed it, so you can portray an adventuring adolescent ogre or something.

[Grumman]

You can elect not to take the racial hit dice... if you have a racial class progression and if you don't mind losing out on quite a lot of abilities.

Wrong. If you'd actually look at any racial class progression, you'd see that the racial hit die and LA are both included.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wrong. If you'd actually look at any racial class progression, you'd see that the racial hit die and LA are both included.

I retroactively alter my statement to include "all of" somewhere in there.

[StoryKeeper]

Thanks for the hasty replies, forum-goers. So just so I'm clear: You can go without the monstrous hit die if you take at least one racial class level, but then don't benefit from the stuff of that race that you didn't earn via teh racial class levels.

And also, and more importantly, I'm right and he's wrong. :D (if my friend should read this, I'm kidding I'm kidding!)

[Douglas]

By normal rules it's all or nothing. You have to take all racial hit dice as well as all level adjustment in order to have the monster as your race.

By Savage Species rules, you can go partial by using a "monster class", but that gives you less of everything - hit dice, LA, and racial bonuses and abilities - and you gradually approach the full deal on everything by taking more levels in the monster class. In addition, you cannot multiclass out of a monster class until you have taken every level in the class, at which point you have the full normal racial stats, hit dice and all, for that race. It's really only useful for playing your chosen race in a party that's normally too low level for it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Note also that the monstrous HD aren't required to make the beast balanced. Most of the time, WotC made them far too expensive for their abilities. The classic IMHO is the ECL 12 Succubus, which is CR 7. No one in their right mind would ever play that.

[deuxhero]

Your friend is right in one case - if the creature has 1 HD (such as pixie) you replace it with your first character level.

[UserClone]

When did they change the rule that said a savage progression has to be finished before any other class can be taken? That was even the norm in Races of the Dragon, which is the last place I've seen an official source providing a savage progression (It was actually a special case in that it was a two-in-one progression; if you took only one level of it it gave you the Draconic template. If you took the second (which obligated you to take the third as your next level), you would progress towards Half-Dragon).

To the OP, I echo the truth: You are 100% correct, and your friend is mistaken. ALL racial hit dice must be taken, as well as ALL Level Adjustment (whether starting at a higher level or taking a Savage Progression, since you have to finish the SP before taking levels in any other class) in order to play a monstrous character.

The ONE exception is that creatures with a listed LA but only one (or less than one) hit die give up that hit die and convert it to a class level (example being a pixie rogue 3 is ECL 7, not ECL 8, because it gives up its pixie hit die but keeps its +4 LA).

[Aquillion]

Note also that the monstrous HD aren't required to make the beast balanced. Most of the time, WotC made them far too expensive for their abilities. The classic IMHO is the ECL 12 Succubus, which is CR 7. No one in their right mind would ever play that.

The problem is their SLAs. Ethereal Jaunt and Greater Teleport are 7th level spells.

Greater Teleport as an at-will is the real dealbreaker. That's one of those things that isn't a big deal in the hands of a monster (hence, CR 7) but which could completely break a game in the hands of a PC, especially long before the party is supposed to have Greater Teleport at all.

Of course, being a Succubus in a 12th level game still sucks, but the ability to teleport anywhere on the plane on a whim as a standard action at no cost is unbelievably awesome.

[UserClone]

Not to mention the sweetness of readied actions to greater teleport away. Beats being able to do nothing, by a mile.

[Myrmex]

Note also that the monstrous HD aren't required to make the beast balanced. Most of the time, WotC made them far too expensive for their abilities. The classic IMHO is the ECL 12 Succubus, which is CR 7. No one in their right mind would ever play that.

OTOH, Spell Weavers, Rakshasas & Ethergaunts have some issues if you remove the RHD.

[Yuki Akuma]

I may be misremembering the racial class for lycanthropes, in which case you can utterly forgo the animal class levels if you don't want them.

But, honestly, is there anything completely unbalancing about multiclassing out of a racial class? I mean, any more than core D&D 3.5 is already completely borked?

[bosssmiley]

The problem is their SLAs. Ethereal Jaunt and Greater Teleport are 7th level spells.

Greater Teleport as an at-will is the real dealbreaker. That's one of those things that isn't a big deal in the hands of a monster (hence, CR 7) but which could completely break a game in the hands of a PC, especially long before the party is supposed to have Greater Teleport at all.

Of course, being a Succubus in a 12th level game still sucks, but the ability to teleport anywhere on the plane on a whim as a standard action at no cost is unbelievably awesome.

Take a pen and, using your mighty powers of DMing, cross out Gtr Teleport from the package of monster powers the PC gets. Explain to the player that if he needs to ask why a lvl 7 PC monster should not have gtr teleport as an at-will SLA, then he is not ready to play one.

The DM should always try to say "yes, but...", rather than "NO!" when asked something by the players.

[KillianHawkeye]

You just have to remember that the creature's racial Hit Dice are usually taken into account when assigning the Level Adjustment in the first place. As in, a monster's LA will generally be lower the more RHD it has for the same abilities.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You're both wrong. Your friend is wrong because you do, indeed, have to take all the racial hit dice. You're wrong because "the hit dice are mandatory to make the character balanced" is a ridiculous claim. HD/LA have, at best, a weak correlation to balance ("high" power needs "high" HD/LA)

[UserClone]

He is correct insofar as that is how the RAW is spelled out, and that is the gist of what the designers thought, I'm sure. However incorrect he might be, that was a really nasty way to tell him. Way to be.

[Myrmex]

I may be misremembering the racial class for lycanthropes, in which case you can utterly forgo the animal class levels if you don't want them.

But, honestly, is there anything completely unbalancing about multiclassing out of a racial class? I mean, any more than core D&D 3.5 is already completely borked?

You could dip a monster class to get a powerful type or subtype with virtually no cost. Qualifying for Illithid Savant would be super easy.

[Darrin]

According to the rules in Savage Species, yes, you have to take Monstrous Class levels in order.

However, in the Savage Progression series of WotC web articles, there are several monster types that have been broken out into "template class levels". These do not have to be taken in order, and are thus "dippable". But the types of monsters is somewhat limited. They have articles for:

Vampire
Half-Dragon and Wererat
Half-Fiend and Wereboar
Fiendish Creature and Werebear
Lich and Weretiger
Ghost and Werewolf
Aasimar, Drow, Duergar, Feytouched, Half-Fey, Svirfneblin, and Tiefling
Transition Classes

[UserClone]

I see nothing in there that tells me that the Savage Species "you must take all these levels in order before multiclassing" rule doesn't still apply here.

[Kylarra]

I see nothing in there that tells me that the Savage Species "you must take all these levels in order before multiclassing" rule doesn't still apply here.

From the first link

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

[Aquillion]

Take a pen and, using your mighty powers of DMing, cross out Gtr Teleport from the package of monster powers the PC gets. Explain to the player that if he needs to ask why a lvl 7 PC monster should not have gtr teleport as an at-will SLA, then he is not ready to play one.

The DM should always try to say "yes, but...", rather than "NO!" when asked something by the players.

Sure, sure. But when WotC made the LA + Racial Hit Dice system, they were trying to avoid having to give individual rules for every monster type (remember, this was originally published in a book, and all that texts wastes space. One number is much easier.) So they just slapped the most conservative number they could imagine on each monster as a very quick-and-dirty 'sure, why not' to people who desperately wanted to play as one. It was cheap in terms of space; going over each monster and listing what you have to change or remove to make it balanced wouldn't have been.