[D&D] Character Creation Methods (Share 'Em!)

[jmbrown]

Point buy is dumb. There, I said it. The concept that every adventurer is crafted from the same cookie-cutter "Acme Adventurer Kit" is ridiculous. Heroes in fiction aren't born from the same mold. Some people are clearly superior to others but point buy completely eliminates this. All fighters have 16 strength. All wizards have 16 intelligence. Everyone has a stat they just don't care about and likely bumped up to 10 only so they couldn't claim a penalty.

BORING

People apparently hate roll-for-stats because they can't handle a character with a prime ability score below 15 or having, heavens forbid, an 8 in an ability. This system, which I dub Prime Attribute Method, is an attempt to allow the variance in characters that I love while satisfying the people who don't get what they want.

Step 1: Pick an ability score you want for your character concept. We'll call this his Prime Attribute.

Step 2: Pick your race as normal. Humans are awesome, so humans get an additional prime attribute.

Step 3: Choose your class. Each class has one or more prime requisite. The prime requisite determines what ability score a character is expected to excel in while he's training for his class and allows you to tag that ability score as a Prime Attribute. While anyone can choose any class, it's understandable that strapping young lads would apply for fighter and crafty minds would take up the pointy hat of the wizard.

Step 4: Roll 4d6b3 in order. That's right, in order: strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma then apply racial bonuses/penalties. This is you, Adventurer Jr., at the tender young age of puberty. This represents your ability scores when you begin training in your class of choice.

Step 5: Remember those ability scores you tagged earlier? Take half the difference from that ability score and 18 (round it down) and add it in (an 18 changes nothing). If your ability score before step 5 is above 18 then no change is made; you're already a paragon with an 18. You can't be a super paragon!

Example: If you rolled a 10 for a prime attribute, then the difference is 8 / 2 = 4. Your final ability score for that prime attribute is 14. If you rolled a 16, you would have a final score of 17 (2 / 1 = 1). Basically, the more naturally gifted you are the less you learn from your Adventurer School (tm).

You can tag an ability score as a prime attribute more than once. Each time you tag an ability score, you add a +1 bonus after Step 5. Yes, this allows humans to have a 20 and demihumans to have a 21 but at the cost of a potentially lower ability score somewhere else.

Core Classes and their Prime Attributes

Barbarian: Constitution and strength or dexterity
Bard: Intelligence and charisma and dexterity.
Cleric: Wisdom
Druid: Wisdom
Fighter: Strength and constitution or dexterity
Paladin: Strength and wisdom and charisma
Monk: Strength and dexterity and wisdom
Ranger: Wisdom and strength or dexterity
Rogue: Dexterity and intelligence
Sorcerer: Charisma and constitution
Wizard: Intelligence

Why don't the classes have equal prime attributes?
Because nobody's equal ARGH AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME? The prime attributes of each class reflect what they would realistically train at. Strong men are expected to apply to the fighting position but they also train in bows and physical endurance. Bards are expected to be fleet of foot, smart, and a pretty boy. Wizards, on the other hand, are expected to study, study, study. Druids hug trees and listen to the wind. Clerics are expected to perform their clerical duties and pray.

In a way, you could say this system is designed to "nerf" the core casters. Shoot, I'll come out and say it: I designed this to give a handicap to core casters! Magic is powerful and world shattering. Such studies require dedicated and devoted focus at the expense of all other studies.

Rerolls: No! Learn to accept your lot in life or do what every weak character in fiction does; use intelligence and tactics to your advantage. Did Paris complain that Achilles was near-invincible and could beat his ass in a one-on-one fight? No! Paris launched a poison tipped arrow into Achilles and dropped that sucker like a bad hat. Likewise, a "weak" fighter (strength <14) should stick with sword + shield, polearms, or ranged attacks. Average intelligence rogues should focus on what they like best and provide flanking bonuses for their allies. Dull wizards should crossclass when they hit their magic limit and take feats like practiced spellcaster to ensure their low level spells at least remain potent for a few levels.

If you can't deal with a 13 intelligence wizard, then the DM should allow you to change your character class to something more suitable to your skills (modifying your prime attribute score). If you don't want to play anything else then the DM should allow characters who don't have at least a 13 in their class' prime attribute to reroll ALL OF THEIR ABILITY SCORES.

Yeah, in Dungeons and Dragons you can't have your cake and eat it too. Deal with it or toss the cake aside.

Example Character Creation

Spoiler

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I want to create a human fighter called Bob the Basher. I decide strength is important so I pick it as a prime attribute. I'm a human so I choose constitution as my second prime. As a fighter I choose strength and constitution again as a prime attribute. I now roll for my ability scores.

Strength: 11
Dexterity: 13
Constitution: 11
Intelligence: 6
Wisdom: 15
Charisma: 12

Constitution is a prime attribute so it gets bumped up to 14 (difference between 18 is 7; 7 / 2 rounded down equals 3). My strength likewise gets bumped up to a 15; 14 from one prime attribute and +1 because I tagged it a second time. Bob the Basher's final ability scores are

Strength: 15 +2
Dexterity: 13 +1
Constitution: 15 +2
Intelligence: 6 -2
Wisdom: 15 +2
Charisma: 12 +1

Bob is essentially a 31 point buy character. He's an effective fighter, clearly exceptional if a little dull in the brains, and he's got some common sense.

[paddyfool]

I like this except for the "humans get an additional prime attribute". They're already good and powerful, and really don't need it.

Also, you left Ranger out of your class list. I'm guessing they'd get "Dexterity and Constitution or Strength".

[jmbrown]

I like this except for the "humans get an additional prime attribute". They're already good and powerful, and really don't need it.

Also, you left Ranger out of your class list. I'm guessing they'd get "Dexterity and Constitution or Strength".

Ranger added. Wisdom is important for them and they can choose to focus on strength (two-weapon fighting) or dexterity (ranged weapons).

I thought for about 10 minutes whether I should give humans a bonus. I'll have to roll up a few more characters and look at the averages to decide whether or not this bonus is huge.

[lesser_minion]

I'd be tempted to stop the whining once and for all and simply have the character roll 4d6b3 for prime attributes and 4d6w3 for non-prime attributes. Only if I particularly felt like playing a 'hardcore' game though.

Humans don't need an extra prime attribute IMO, unless you plan to adopt this for FG&G.

I'm not sure. Sometimes it's fun to have evil monsters, weak stats, and death around every corner, under every flagstone, on every ceiling, lurking in every plane, on every street, in ever city, and so on. I don't see a problem with "roll stats on 3d6w2, and the worst stat is the one you'll be forced to use most often".

At the same time though, it's fun to be immortal conquering heroes as well, and I don't particularly mind playing games with 25 point buy, christmas tree effects, and tonnes of monsters.

[Anonomuss]

Interesting concept. However, you claim people are being wimps for not doing it TEH HARDCOREZ!!! way, so why not stick with the original 3d6 rolled 6 times, in order?

Sure the rolls might be terrible, but hey, this isn't a ride, people aren't meant to get off with a smile, this is DUNGEONS AND MUTHA-F*CKING DRAGONS!!!

[paddyfool]

Let me try some examples:

EDIT: Deleted due to die-rollers not being for this board.

[jmbrown]

Interesting concept. However, you claim people are being wimps for not doing it TEH HARDCOREZ!!! way, so why not stick with the original 3d6 rolled 6 times, in order?

Sure the rolls might be terrible, but hey, this isn't a ride, people aren't meant to get off with a smile, this is DUNGEONS AND MUTHA-F*CKING DRAGONS!!!

Normally I'd agree with you but 3E killed the notion of 3d6 in order because of the incremental modifier.

Saying that, sometimes I like harsh games where characters have d4 hitpoints per level and apply con penalties but not bonuses, use the worst ability score modifier with any possible relevance on a task, and roll 3d6 for one attribute and 3d6w2 for the others, and sometimes I just like the simplicity of point buy.

Okay now this is scary

[jmbrown]

Let me try some examples:

EDIT: Didn't seem to like that. Will try over in the die-roller forum.

EDIT 2: That forum didn't like it either. Am I doing something wrong here?

Human Paladin, prime attributes Str & Wis & Cha & Dex & Con

Str*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Dex*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Con*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Int: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Wis*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Cha*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

Dorf Fighter, prime attributes Str & Con & Con:

Str*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Dex: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Con**: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Int: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Wis: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Cha: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

Elf Ranger, primary attributes Wis & Dex & Con:

Str: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Dex*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Con*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Int: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Wis*: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]
Cha: [roll]4d6b3[/roll]

You can't roll outside the IC forums. Go to the practice dice roller topic and make sure you don't hit preview post.

[lesser_minion]

Okay now this is scary

I exaggerated a little.

[paddyfool]

OK, so I posted it here. I calculate that that would give the following stats:

Human Paladin:

Str*: (4d6b3)[10] = 14
Dex*: (4d6b3)[12] = 15
Con*: (4d6b3)[9] = 13
Int: (4d6b3)[15] = 15
Wis*: (4d6b3)[9] = 13
Cha*: (4d6b3)[18] = 18

(Generally awesome)

Dorf fighter:

Str*: (4d6b3)[11] = 14
Dex: (4d6b3)[11] = 11
Con**: (4d6b3)[7] = 15 (including racial bonus at the end)
Int: (4d6b3)[18] = 18
Wis: (4d6b3)[8] = 8
Cha: (4d6b3)[11] = 9 (racial penalty)

(Interesting mental stats on that fighter - I have the feeling he may go to the dark side and become a gish)

Elf ranger:

Str: (4d6b3)[9] = 9
Dex*: (4d6b3)[13] = 17 (racial bonus)
Con*: (4d6b3)[12] = 13 (racial penalty)
Int: (4d6b3)[14] = 14
Wis*: (4d6b3)[8] = 13
Cha: (4d6b3)[11] = 11

(Probably end up going multiclass with scout with whatever the dual-progression feat is)

EDIT: Some more

Roguish Halfling, prime attributes Dex & Int & Cha:

Str: (4d6b3)[14] = 12 (racial penalty)
Dex*: (4d6b3)[11] = 16 (racial bonus)
Con: (4d6b3)[15] = 15
Int*: (4d6b3)[12] = 15
Wis: (4d6b3)[15] = 15
Cha*: (4d6b3)[9] = 13

(Nice enough - I like how I randomly avoided him having a dump stat)

Gnome Druid, primary attributes Wis & Int:

Str: (4d6b3)[14] = 12
Dex: (4d6b3)[9] = 9
Con: (4d6b3)[14] = 16
Int*: (4d6b3)[15] = 16
Wis*: (4d6b3)[11] = 14
Cha: (4d6b3)[14] = 14

(Probably should have put both in Wis... but he's a Druid, so he'll be fine)

Half-Orc Barbarian, primary attributes Str & Dex & Con:

Str*: (4d6b3)[10] = 16
Dex*: (4d6b3)[15] = 16
Con*: (4d6b3)[14] = 16
Int: (4d6b3)[14] = 12
Wis: (4d6b3)[16] = 16
Cha: (4d6b3)[17] = 15

(This has all the qualities of a great Barbarian leader)

[DragoonWraith]

Rolling for stats is dumb. There, I said it. The concept that the character that you'll be playing for weeks, months, or years should be decided entirely by random chance never made sense, and was only implemented because Gygax liked to torture his players. Old-school gamers cling to this edifice of tradition as if it added something to the game, but it was always ridiculous.

There, I can be condescending about your playstyle preferences, too. Seriously, I find your title annoying and condescending, and I'd appreciate it if you changed it so I don't have to see it on the thread list. Not everyone feels the same way you do; in fact I feel quite the opposite. Your post is borderline insulting, and I think you should change it.

[truemane]

I don't like random rolls for attributes simply because it generates (tends to generate anyway) a differential in power-level within the party. And that's bad. If the whole party is powerful, cool. I can swing that. If the whole party is weak, also cool. I can roll with that too.

But when one character is demonstrably more powerful, or less powerful, than the rest, that's when trouble starts. And that's the issue with any sort of random generation method.

[jmbrown]

@Paddyfool

Paladin = 48 points
Fighter = 33 points
Ranger = 26 points

That paladin is really good. Problem with paladin and monk is that they have way too many important ability scores hence why I gave them more primes.

The fighter is also a good character and one of the reasons why I like rolling in order. He's a naturally bright boy, and while he passed Fighting Class he would have been top of his class in wizard which is where he's likely headed after level 1.

The ranger is 1 point below the average Elite Array which is what rolling 4d6b3 would generally net you. I'm going to create a wizard here.

strength - (4d6b3)[12] 12
dexterity - (4d6b3)[15] 15
constitution - (4d6b3)[14] 14
intelligence - (4d6b3)[8] 15 (tagged three times)
wisdom - (4d6b3)[14] 14
charisma - (4d6b3)[13] 13

Talk about jack-of-all-trades. Not the top of his class but certainly in the upper percentile and he can still get a 19 intelligence by level 18 which is all a wizard needs to cast everything.

[paddyfool]

I don't like random rolls for attributes simply because it generates (tends to generate anyway) a differential in power-level within the party. And that's bad. If the whole party is powerful, cool. I can swing that. If the whole party is weak, also cool. I can roll with that too.

But when one character is demonstrably more powerful, or less powerful, than the rest, that's when trouble starts. And that's the issue with any sort of random generation method.

I have had this problem before, when I rolled up a character whose best stats were two 14s...

Also, to the OP: If I was to give anyone two origin primary attributes, it'd be the half-breeds. Half-elf, half-orc, half-dragon; whatever, they could all do with a bump. (Maybe not the half-minotaur, though).

[dsmiles]

Interesting concept. However, you claim people are being wimps for not doing it TEH HARDCOREZ!!! way, so why not stick with the original 3d6 rolled 6 times, in order?

Sure the rolls might be terrible, but hey, this isn't a ride, people aren't meant to get off with a smile, this is DUNGEONS AND MUTHA-F*CKING DRAGONS!!!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Just had a Hardcoregasm. I love me some 3d6 in order...

[Lapak]

This is an interesting procedure, and I like it. Flavorful with the talent/training divide, gives the player some influence over their end result without letting them simply dictate it, and it gives a partial resolution to the MAD vs. SAD issue to boot as it will tend towards higher ability score totals in MAD classes. Consider it snagged for testing.

[jmbrown]

Rolling for stats is dumb. There, I said it. The concept that the character that you'll be playing for weeks, months, or years should be decided entirely by random chance never made sense, and was only implemented because Gygax liked to torture his players. Old-school gamers cling to this edifice of tradition as if it added something to the game, but it was always ridiculous.

There, I can be condescending about your playstyle preferences, too. Seriously, I find your title annoying and condescending, and I'd appreciate it if you changed it so I don't have to see it on the thread list. Not everyone feels the same way you do; in fact I feel quite the opposite. Your post is borderline insulting, and I think you should change it.

It's all in good fun, buddy. I'm not telling anyone their opinion is wrong, only that I don't approve of it. I couldn't care less if you don't like the rolling system.

If it truly bothers you that much then I'll change the title.

I don't like random rolls for attributes simply because it generates (tends to generate anyway) a differential in power-level within the party. And that's bad. If the whole party is powerful, cool. I can swing that. If the whole party is weak, also cool. I can roll with that too.

But when one character is demonstrably more powerful, or less powerful, than the rest, that's when trouble starts. And that's the issue with any sort of random generation method.

And how often does this come into play? You can't excel all the time. Monsters and situational modifiers ensure that no player will ever dominate the field or become a super man. Sure, we have threads discussing how wizards and wild shape druids can tear up the battlefield but that's assuming optimal situations and no DM worth his salt should hand everything to the players for free.

The way abilities are handled ensures people are always capable of doing something. Yes, a fighter with 14 strength will hit 20% more often than a fighter with 10 strength, but that's where tactics come into play. The weaker fighter should stick to bows if he has a higher dexterity. The weaker fighter should set up flanks to gain that extra 10% bonus he lacks.

This system is designed to appease both sides of the ball court. You have the people who expect to be powerful and the people who expect you to have a variance in abilities because everyone in the world doesn't come from Acme Character Kit.

Also, to the OP: If I was to give anyone two origin primary attributes, it'd be the half-breeds. Half-elf, half-orc, half-dragon; whatever, they could all do with a bump. (Maybe not the half-minotaur, though).

Good point. Half-elves need love, too.

[Tim4488]

I used a system in one game where everyone rolled 4d6 6 times, and at the end I totaled everyone's ability scores. Not point buy-like, just adding up the raw 10, 15, 12, whatever. The highest player had a total of 81, IIRC, and everyone else got points to bring them equal to him (so if their scores totaled 72, they'd get 9 points). It kept some of the fun of rolling without creating the power differential. Interestingly, the player who rolled best at first actually didn't end up best off, because he didn't get to customize as much with points.

Unusual, yeah, but the people in that game seemed to really enjoy it. My roommate is about to DM for the first time and he told me he planned to borrow it for his game, he enjoyed it so much.

Course, it makes everyone the same again, but it still has that touch of random in it.

[jmbrown]

I used a system in one game where everyone rolled 4d6 6 times, and at the end I totaled everyone's ability scores. Not point buy-like, just adding up the raw 10, 15, 12, whatever. The highest player had a total of 81, IIRC, and everyone else got points to bring them equal to him (so if their scores totaled 72, they'd get 9 points). It kept some of the fun of rolling without creating the power differential. Interestingly, the player who rolled best at first actually didn't end up best off, because he didn't get to customize as much with points.

Unusual, yeah, but the people in that game seemed to really enjoy it. My roommate is about to DM for the first time and he told me he planned to borrow it for his game, he enjoyed it so much.

Course, it makes everyone the same again, but it still has that touch of random in it.

Interesting. I'll have to look into this as well. Another thing I'm not fond of with point buy is the aversion to odd numbers. At 1st level, few people will stick an odd number in an ability score. When they create a character 4th level or higher, they purposefully use odd numbers to save points thus creating severely more powerful characters than they would have at level 1.

I'd probably adopt this system using the "half the difference added" idea. If the best player had 80 points total and the worst player had 60, then the worst player would get an additional 10 points to use in a point buy.

This eliminates the best player from feeling like he got cheated out of his luck while keeping the weaker character from feeling totally incapable of keeping up.

EDIT: And please, do share your character generation methods. I'll change the topic title to reflect that I want to hear from other people and their methods. Let's create a collection of homebrew generation methods.

[paddyfool]

Overall, I rather like this system too, as you can see by the fun I've had playing with it.

Were a group of 6 gamers to roll up the characters I've posted... well, the Elf Ranger might well feel a bit gimped compared to the rest, but not enough to really hold them back. I reckon they'd all be playable at level 1, and in the long run, inevitably, it'll fall to the Casters. EDIT: No change there for playability, then, and a bit more random fun.

[ZeroNumerous]

First off: I'd like to say your opening post is extremely offensive.

Second: Point buy actually generates more 8s than rolling on average. As an 8 or lower is not very common on 3d6(being that it's only 18 possible combinations). Whereas with a 28 point buy, getting an 18 in a stat requires at least one 8.

Third: I like point buy, but in games I run I generate with 2d6+6 7 times drop the lowest. Mainly because I prefer a high power game where the protagonists are epic army-killing bastards.

[dsmiles]

Seriously, 3d6...in order. That's all.

[Tim4488]

Third: I like point buy, but in games I run I generate with 2d6+6 7 times drop the lowest. Mainly because I prefer a high power game where the protagonists are epic army-killing bastards.

That's almost the reason I have a high power game. I like my antagonists to be powerful bastards, and the PCs need good rolls to survive. (I've very rarely killed PCs, but I like knowing I have a little buffer if I let them reroll poor HP and similar things.)

I understand what you're saying, jmbrown, about the highest roller feeling cheated. The half-again system could work well. In this specific instance, it was no problem, the group of friends was all perfectly happy. But I know that's not the case at all tables.

[Thelas]

I've used, depending on how forgiving I'm being:
32pt
4d6-L * 7, discard lowest
3d6 in order, reroll any one, switch any two, roll hp even at 1st level.

[jmbrown]

Gotta Keep It Up Method (modified from Tim4488's method).

A good argument against roll-for-stats is the vast difference in character power. As paddyfool point out earlier, his paladin was nearly twice as powerful (ability score-wise) than the ranger. Some people don't like the idea of being delegated the Party Packmule(tm) because they were never truly fit for adventuring.

This method combines random rolling and point buy so everybody can be happy!

Step 1: Roll 4d6b3 in order. Yes, in order. No dump stat for you.

Step 2: After everyone has rolled, total the point buy for the highest character.

Step 3: For every other character, generate a number equal to half the difference between their point buy and the highest character's point buy (round down). That number can be used as points to raise a character's ability scores.

Example Here.

Character 2 has the highest point buy at 42. Using character 3 as an example, he has a measly 21 points. His difference gives him 10 points (42 - 21 = 21 / 2 = 10) to add to whatever ability scores he wants.

This allows weaker characters to be brought up to par with stronger ones without denying a player's luck on his roll. If you want some leniency then allow the highest point buy character to rearrange any two ability scores (in the link I posted, character 2 could swap his dexterity with intelligence if he wanted to be a wizard and so on). This allows the strongest character some leeway while the weaker characters can raise their own attributes.

[Eloel]

I would like to contribute to the OP method, by compiling some classes. (kinda felt like it)


Non-Core Primary Attributes by Classes
Ninja: Dexterity and Intelligence and Wisdom
Scout: Dexterity and Intelligence and Wisdom
Spellthief: Charisma and Strength or Dexterity
Warlock: Charisma and Strength or Dexterity
Warmage: Charisma and Intelligence
Wu Jen: Intelligence
Favored Soul: Charisma and Wisdom
Shugenja: Charisma and Dexterity or Constitution
Spirit Shaman: Charisma and Wisdom
Hexblade: Charisma and Constitution and Dexterity or Strength
Samurai: All 6 won't help...
Swashbuckler: Intelligence and Dexterity and Strength or Constitution
Dragonfire Adept: Constitution and Charisma
Beguiler: Intelligence and Charisma or Dexterity
Dragon Shaman: Charisma and Constitutionx2 and Strength
Duskblade: Intelligence and Strength and Constitution
Knight: Charisma and Strength and Constitution
Factotum: Intelligence and Dexterity or Intelligence
Warblade: Strength and Constitution or Intelligence
Swordsage: Dexterity or Strength and Wisdom
Crusader: Strength or Constitution and Wisdom or Charisma
Psion: Intelligence
Wilder: Charisma and Constitution
Psychic Warrior: Wisdom and Strength or Dexterity


I know I'm missing some classes, but I really have no real idea on them...

[arguskos]

To compound on Ozgun's tack there, I'll add the Dragon Compendium classes.

Battle Dancer Charisma and Strength or Dexterity
Death Master Intelligence and Charisma
Jester Charisma and Dexterity
Montebank Charisma and Dexterity or Intelligence
Savant Intelligence and Constitution or Dexterity
Sha'ir Charisma
Urban Druid as Druid

And, Heroes of Horror

Archivist Intelligence
Dread Necromancer Charisma and Dexterity

[Tavar]

How in the world to Warlocks make sense for Str?

Also, I'll echo the opinion that your first post is offensive and condescending. Plus flat out wrong on many levels.

[Eloel]

How in the world to Warlocks make sense for Str?

Also, I'll echo the opinion that your first post is offensive and condescending. Plus flat out wrong on many levels.

There are 2 ways of dealing EB damage. Melee (Eldritch Glaive) or Ranged. A warlock can focus on either.

[Yakk]

Start with 8 in each attribute.

Roll 40 D6.

For each 1, add 1 to strength.
For each 2, add 1 to dex.
For each 3, add 1 to con
For each 4, add 1 to int
For each 5, add 1 to wis
For each 6, add 1 to cha.