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2010-01-17, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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(3.5) Spells which age gracefully
So, other than utility spells which are always of, well, utility... What are some spells that continue to be relevant rather than useless once they're no longer the highest spell level available to a full caster?
As an additional note, at what point does each level of spells depreciate to the point where it would be considered useless to use instead of a higher level spell slot?
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2010-01-17, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
A lot of cantrips and orisons are useful no matter what level you are.
Prestidigitation, mage hand, create food and water, ghost sound...those are core.
There are others, obviously. Fly is always a good 3rd level slot to have.Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2010-01-17, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- London
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
spells that perform useful but noncombat related stuff or can be used creatively have the best shelf life, prestidigitation, illusion spells, magecraft, comprehend languages, etc....
And each level of spells has it's uses, once you have several then you change what you use the lower ones for sure but they still play a role. there's some good 1st and 2nd level stuff to boost higher level casting (true strike, true casting, create magic tattoo, etc...) and 3rd and 4th has some of the best buffs in the game in it, both for the whole team and for self-protection. 5th has some excelent transport and divination for all casters and 6th plus stay relivant into epic if used right.Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2010-01-17, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Minnesota
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Oh, and enervation.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2010-01-17, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Expeditious Retreat, Shield, and True Strike are favorites of mine.
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2010-01-17, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Glitterdust
Overland Flight
Benign Transposition
Alter Self
Draconic Polymorph
Silent Image
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2010-01-17, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Grease, glitterdust, wind wall, solid fog, web, and many other battlefield control spells are useful at just about any level against an enemy not outright immune to them, or for helpfully moving your party around.
Many illusions remain powerful at higher levels. Of particular note is silent image which is a level one spell strong at any level and greater mirror image which is one of the best defensive spells of all.
A buff that grants untyped bonuses, long durations, scaling benefits, or rare/powerful abilities are always good. Some great spells here include fly and overland flight, xorn movement, phantom steed, alter self, heart of water, greater magic weapon/vestment, voice of the dragon, celerity, and greater blink.
Wraithstrike if anything is better at higher levels due to stronger attacks and cheap stuff like persist spell.
Debuffs that don't allow saves (notably rays) are awesome against single strong enemies. Keep rays of enfeeblement/exhaustion/dizziness/etc ready in some lower slots.
Finally, always have feather fall on hand in some way, shape, or form.Glibness...Shameless self promotion
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2010-01-17, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- California
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Core Only?
Shield
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Enlarge Person
Glitterdust
Web
Mirror Image
Stinking Cloud
Displacement
Blink
Fly
Ray of Exhaustion
Haste
Those are all 3rd level or lower spells that I could think of good uses for up to 20th level. Other spells (Alter Self) are notably powerful, but since Alter Self is like Polymorph-- I didn't include it.
All of these spells do something important that doesn't matter if the enemy passes their save... Obscuring Mist is, for instance, good for giving your rogue cover. Stinking Cloud, however, is really good for when you want to mess with your opponent's vision; they're likely to pass the save, sure, but the off chance they fail (and become nauseated, a ridiculously powerful condition) is so worth it since the main reason you cast it is to slow down the enemy.Last edited by Superglucose; 2010-01-17 at 05:26 AM.
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2010-01-17, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Glucose's list lacks a few:
- True Strike
- Reduce Person
- Magic Aura
- Protection from Alignment (or Magic Circle)
- Alarm
- Charm Person (use with unconscious people)
- Fog Cloud
- Pyrotechnics
- False Life
- Spectral Hand
- Knock
- Obscure Object
- Rope Trick
- See Invisibility
- Explosive Runes
- Phantom Steed
- Nondetection
- Heroism (10 min/level so Extendable to make it last all day, making it worthwhile alongside Greater)
- Wind Wall
- Invisibility Sphere (one of the easiest way to make a bunch of people Invisible)
- Keen Edge
- Greater Magic Weapon
- Secret Page
- Waterbreathing
- Slow
Only Slow of those is negated by a save, and it's multitarget, targets Will and so devastating on a failed save that I won't mind casting it. Low-level spells in D&D are amazing. Cantrips like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic and company can have great benefits too.
Really, it's just nice to be able to prepare spells for cornercases with your free slots from the low levels. And level 3 is jampacked with various awesome party buffs that don't get obsoleted ever; Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Heroism, Haste, Blink, etc.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-01-17, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
I wouldn't put Shield on the list. As you progress, +4 Shield to AC starts meaning less and less.
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2010-01-17, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Canadia
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
+4 AC is always needed and useful for a wizard. Most appreciate it, anyway.
Feather fall. I can't stress it enough. I never prepare spells without having at least one slot with feather fall.Avatar by the awesome starwoof
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2010-01-17, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Heh. Though I always thought the same about Feather Fall myself, the situation never really called for it. Even once. Meh, probably it's personal experiences and all that. I don't take it to my wizards these days.
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2010-01-17, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Really?
Let's look at the things that you're fighting at level 15+.
Attack bonus in the neighborhood of +30-50.
You really think that the wizard is going to have an AC high enough to make +4 AC meaningful?
Assume a wizard with 24 dex, Bracers of armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of natural armor +5.
That's AC 35, with incredible investment.
This means that if the enemy's attack bonus is +38 or more? Shield was useless. Why? Because either way, it hits on a 2.
The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.
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2010-01-17, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- London
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2010-01-17, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2010-01-17, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Greece
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2010-01-17, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- London
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2010-01-17, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.
This also discourages the players from engaging in reckless behaviour (like reducing their AC to 0 to fuel shock trooper/robilar's gambit) while improving the monster's base damage.
It is like a slap in the face to a fighter when, despite all the resources he has placed into boosting his AC, the tarrasque still hits him on a roll of 2 or greater (assume that the environment does not make it conducive for flying).
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2010-01-17, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Texas...for now
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Worth a spell known basically from the instant you can cast that level of spells.
[/sarcasm]
FAQ is not RAW!Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.
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2010-01-17, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Personally I like Greater Luminous Armor (+8 AC, -4 to be hit in melee), level 4, with a cost when it ends (Str damage), and has some really heavy competition for the slot (polymorph, greater mirror image, dimension door, etc) though. When you get it your AC is boosted to high enough that it's good, later on it gets worse though. I had an arcane hierophant that used it at Lv 20 and with wild shape, ring of protection +5, barkskin, and he had a decent AC.
But a lot of 3rd and 4th level spells remain useful for buffing forever.Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
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Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-01-17, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- The great state of denial
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
I find I'm more likely to take magic missile at later levels, where I don't need my ones, and I want to keep a cheap nuking spell to chip off incorporeal creatures, who tend to have low HP counts and don't warrant my bigger spells. Low levels, the spell's nearly useless.
Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.
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2010-01-17, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nova Scotia, Canada
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2010-01-17, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-01-17, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
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2010-01-17, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
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2010-01-17, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Yes it is and yes it does. Works well with Shield on Abjurant Champion for +22 AC from those two spells, and shield spell is autoquickened. But that's a PrC and specific build so I didn't feel right suggesting it. Through in Level 3 Dragonskin for +5 Nat armor and energy resistance 20, and a ring of protection +5 and you already have 42 + Dex AC and -4 to be hit in melee (at level 20 not wonderful against = CR but most lower CR creatures will have trouble), then take Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for another +1 and +6 Dex item for 46 + base Dex mod. Then use Polymorph (or better yet Draconic Polymorph) to take a good form (or if you can Shapechange although that's not low level) and you have some really good AC (76 if you take on a pit fiend form with Shapechange), but by this point it's some level of AC optimization (although only 55000 GP and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, plus 3 spell slots as polymorph of some sort is likely to be used anyway). If you're dealing with attack bonuses from +30 to +50 then you aren't about to be hit (5% chance of being hit, before you throw in miss chances).
Edit: It's normal ability damage so get a rod of bodily restoration and you can negate three castings worth of damage a day for less than 5000 GP. Plus you can cast it on a good aligned monk ally which is fun.Last edited by Zaydos; 2010-01-17 at 01:16 PM.
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-01-17, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Or Bind Naberius to get rid of 1 point per round. For 1 feat, but that's outside core.
All this demonstrates is that in specific builds, the spells can be useful. That makes them "situational".
Without levels in PrC's amping them up, every level gained pulls it farther behind.
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2010-01-17, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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You can call me Draz.
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2010-01-17, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Even without PrCs you end up with 66 which is just as good for the most part. Actually in the above example Shield's +9 was mostly redundant. Even a CR 22 Great Wyrm Black Dragon (first dragon I came to) has only a +46 to hit. The tarrasque which its +57 is a threat if you aren't an abjurant champion at this point but it still gives even it a 60% chance of missing, but without quickening shield it's not worth it. I'd still use Gr Luminous Armor and Dragonskin and go with a +5 Mithril Buckler (for 68 AC, costs total is getting rather high with almost 90000 GP spent though). At this point without classes tarrasque has a 30% accuracy (worse with secondary attacks) and most things have a significantly worse one (5% is common). Even without the buckler that +8 AC from Greater Luminous Armor remains good and is worth the slot to keep from paying 64000 for an item which does it worse.
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-01-17, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: (3.5) Spells which age gracefully
Faerie Fire never goes out of style. Casters can frequently see or detect concealed foes, but that doesn't do too much good if your rogue buddy still can't get to them. If you don't feel like wanding it, you can get a ring that has it 5/day (with some negligible lightning damage to boot) relatively cheaply in the MiC... I think it's called the Stormfire Ring.
For our cleric friends, Sign gives a +4 untyped bonus to initiative (well, to your first check within 10 min/level). If you have a decent feeling about when combat's going to happen (for example, before opening a door to an unknown area), it's almost always worth it. It's also a perfect wand spell. It's basically Nerveskitter for clerics.
It takes a specific build to care about it, but if Sniper's Shot is ever useful to you, it'll always stay useful.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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