[3.5] Playing a pure melee animal?

[Pika...]

Hmm. This concept is one that amuses me, since everyone always says awakened animals and/or animal HD are either worthless or broken if the animal is tiny and intended to be a cheesy caster.

What if say I wanted to play an awakened "animal of legend", or an animal trying to become one?

Right now I am thinking a wolf. Just a world who for whatever reason chose to be the protector of a certain group of adventurers (maybe they saved it, or he helped them when lost in a winter blizard or something and chose to stay around).


Your thoughts on this?

How would you personally stat or build such a PC past the initial wolf HD and Awaken Spell HD?

Do you believe it would be playable/useful tot he part up until later levels, or even all the way to 20th level if done right?

[icefractal]

If you were going for pure melee, a ToB class might be good - at least you would get some benefit out of the animal HD (half adds to your IL). Also, the manuevers would compensate for the lack of iterative attacks. Make sure someone in the party can case Greater Magic Fang on you, from a wand if necessary.

[Glimbur]

Playable? Probably. Optimal? Hardly. Magical Beast hitdice aren't as bad as Animal hit dice, but even a fighter gets bonus feats for his hit dice. That's why racial hit dice are so bad: they don't have any class features.

Usefulness depends on the rest of the party, you could be a workable frontline fighter, especially with a ToB class which means you're not as far behind on class features because of how initiator level works. Alternately, be a critter with Pounce so you don't have to spend levels or feats on it and be a rogue with lots of natural attacks. That wouldn't be a wolf.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Depends how much you want to be a specifically awakened animal. Anthropomorphic is better, of course. You want as low a HD as possible for as many benefits as possible. Fleshraker is good, of course, and you're basically a venomous raptor. For class, go martial adept, so you can use the HD for IL.

Also, you can go Supermount, I've done one using Arcane Heirophant primarily that can keep up with a moderately optimized party just as the cat(fluff is that the master is imprisoned and the pet is adventuring until he gets the contacts and money to save him).

[Runestar]

I will play a worg over an awakened wolf any day - better HD and just LA+1.

[Pika...]

Well, I am not a fan of Tomes of Battle style mechanics.


As for being playable vs. optimal, I am not into optimization. I just want a PC who can still be useful to the rest of the party, yet still give me the roleplaying opportunity I want of being able to get into said creature's mindset/style/mind/behavior/etc.

As for the anthropomorphic animal template from savage species, that is completely not want I am looking for. Again the idea of playing a true animal with an animal (and possibly pack) mentality is what I desire here. Perhaps I am imagining a more Native Americans style "legendary/mythical animal"?

[Sinfire Titan]

Well, I am not a fan of Tomes of Battle style mechanics.


As for being playable vs. optimal, I am not into optimization. I just want a PC who can still be useful to the rest of the party, yet still give me the roleplaying opportunity I want of being able to get into said creature's mindset/style/mind/behavior/etc.

As for the anthropomorphic animal template from savage species, that is completely not want I am looking for. Again the idea of playing a true animal with an animal (and possibly pack) mentality is what I desire here. Perhaps I am imagining a more Native Americans style "legendary/mythical animal"?

Just have someone take Wild Cohort or levels in Druid, and play their Companion like it were an NPC. Every time they change companions (due to death or level up) you just need to transfer the NPC's personality to the new one.


Or is this as a player? If so, then Tome of Battle is really the only way to make up for the Racial Hit Dice problems.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, I am not a fan of Tomes of Battle style mechanics.

On the flip-side, Unarmed Swordsage.

Kung-Fu Wolf. Tell me you're not at least a little tempted.

Seriously though, I see what you're aiming at, and it sounds fun. My Hunch is, though, that the kind of DM that would let you play a largely mundane wolf (heading in a creature-of-legend style direction, admittedly) would likely be the sort who'd be willing to discuss possibly tinkering with the whole animal-HD thing, if it makes the character more valid.

Reguardless of all that, I'd see Barbarian or Rogue levels being amusing.

I actually toyed with a similar idea, as a potential future character in 4th ed. Heaven knows when I'd get a good excuse to use good ol' Two-Wolves, though.

[Pika...]

Or is this as a player? If so, then Tome of Battle is really the only way to make up for the Racial Hit Dice problems.

Yup. 100% player intended.

Kung-Fu Wolf. Tell me you're not at least a little tempted.

Well, not really...

If I were doing one of my joke characters, yeah sure I could see myself going Shrek's Donkey style. This time; though, I am looking for some serious and maybe intense roleplaying. Hence why I originally thought of a wolf for various reasons (including pack mentality for a reason to adventure with a group).

Seriously though, I see what you're aiming at, and it sounds fun. My Hunch is, though, that the kind of DM that would let you play a largely mundane wolf (heading in a creature-of-legend style direction, admittedly) would likely be the sort who'd be willing to discuss possibly tinkering with the whole animal-HD thing, if it makes the character more valid.

Hmm. You might have a point.

In such a case would it then be possible to take that Legendary Animal template from somewhere (source anyone?) and break it up into class levels/racial progression levels?

Reguardless of all that, I'd see Barbarian or Rogue levels being amusing.

I actually toyed with a similar idea, as a potential future character in 4th ed. Heaven knows when I'd get a good excuse to use good ol' Two-Wolves, though.

Amazingly I never thought of Barbairan for some reason.

Rogue for a wolf? I am not sure how that would work. Perhaps Fighter/Rogue or Barbarian/Rogue?


And do you mind sharing your fluff for Mr. Two-Wolves?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Pika do you mind If I steal your idea for a game?

[Pika...]

Pika do you mind If I steal your idea for a game?

Sardior no!

I am always honored when people want to use my ideas themselves.


Though I do not feel I can call wanting to play an awaked animal my idea.

[Pika...]

The other thread about playing another PC's mount got me think an obvious question I would now like to put into this equation.

[Weezer]

I think to maximize your awesome and the whole force of nature shtick go totemist. The image of a wolf growing even more claws, breathing fire, shooting spines etc. is just too amazing to pass up. Also you'd be pretty effective as well without having to rely on either ToB or a charger build, neither of which seems to be what you want.

[Pika...]

I think to maximize your awesome and the whole force of nature shtick go totemist. The image of a wolf growing even more claws, breathing fire, shooting spines etc. is just too amazing to pass up. Also you'd be pretty effective as well without having to rely on either ToB or a charger build, neither of which seems to be what you want.

LoL.

I had forgot to mention that one. Should put this in my OPs from now on.

Anyway, that is the second book I myself ban. Let's just say I see those mentioned way to many times in threads optimization.

[Weezer]

Ahh sad
Too many people dismiss Incarnum for my tastes, its really not overpowered at all, totemist is merely tier 3, right in the "sweet spot" IMO. It can of course do some crazy stuff if you overdo it, but unless you go out of your way to break it its pretty well balanced. But each to his own I suppose.

EDIT: I should probably be a bit more constructive. Let me see, hmmm. How about barbarian, going for an animalistic rage type thing?

[Pika...]

Ahh sad
Too many people dismiss Incarnum for my tastes, its really not overpowered at all, totemist is merely tier 3, right in the "sweet spot" IMO. It can of course do some crazy stuff if you overdo it, but unless you go out of your way to break it its pretty well balanced. But each to his own I suppose.

I feel the same way about psionics honestly.

The thing is I have been asked a few too many times about said books, and I am one to cut a problem at it's source before it developed. I also do not like the idea of using something I would not allow in my own games, since it would be hypocritical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since you're not looking for optimization advice, there's nothing wrong with the animal HD. They're no different from dead levels in a class. If you go with the barbarian idea, you might think about PrC'ing into Primeval from Frostburn. There's a touch of redundancy with you already being an animal, but you get to change from a wolf, into a dire wolf, and your physical stats in both forms get a nice increase, capped off with gaining the shapechanger subtype.

Edited: removed a line about what to take after Primeval, because I miscalculated. Primeval should finish right at level 20.

[Fizban]

If you're not going to use ToB, I'd suggest the Bounding Assault line of feats in the PHBII. It's an extension of Spring Attack, giving you extra attacks at -5 and -10, kinda like TWF does with your off hand. Without ToB you'll need something for extra damage, and it's either the standard ubercharge or a quasi-full attack from Bounding Assault+ Rapid Blitz.

Hmm, or you could still do the kung-fu wolf. Any creature can make an unarmed strike (in fact, improved grabbers get them all the time if they don't have constrict), so you take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike. Then you make a full iterative attack with unarmed strikes and follow up with a bite at -5. Power Attack will still apply at 1:1 for everything, not great but better than nothing.

With all the feats involved, I would naturally suggest fighter class to start. Primeval is a nifty idea, but note that Primevals lose int and wis, and if you use the standard awaken roll you won't have much of those to spare (though if playing an awakened animal from 1st, you should use heroic rolls like any other PC). Other shapechanging possibilities include Wildshape Ranger/ Master of Many Forms, or Bear Warrior. Kung fu wolf that rages and turns into a bear? They'll never expect it, that's for sure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Primeval is a nifty idea, but note that Primevals lose int and wis, and if you use the standard awaken roll you won't have much of those to spare (though if playing an awakened animal from 1st, you should use heroic rolls like any other PC). Other shapechanging possibilities include Wildshape Ranger/ Master of Many Forms, or Bear Warrior. Kung fu wolf that rages and turns into a bear? They'll never expect it, that's for sure.

Actually, Primevals lose only a little int and cha, they actually gain the same amount to wis, str, con, and dex. 3 points each across 10 levels, and like you said, the player should be using the standard 4d6 drop the lowest rather than awaken's 3d6. I'll second a two level dip for Wild-shape ranger. With Barb you're getting +20ft of speed and the wild-shape uses can fuel the primevals primal form ability.

[Fizban]

Actually, Primevals lose only a little int and cha, they actually gain the same amount to wis, str, con, and dex. 3 points each across 10 levels, and like you said, the player should be using the standard 4d6 drop the lowest rather than awaken's 3d6. I'll second a two level dip for Wild-shape ranger. With Barb you're getting +20ft of speed and the wild-shape uses can fuel the primevals primal form ability.

Uhh, you need 5 levels of Wildshape Ranger to get Wild Shape, just like a Druid (the ability is just copy/pasted).

Also: anyone else getting weird ideas for awakened plants? I'm not sure which is worse: the awakened sapling that's a binder, the one that's a wildshape ranger, or the one that's a bear warrior.

[9mm]

... play a totemist, because nothing says loving like MAOR NATURAL ATTACKS!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I feel the same way about psionics honestly.

The thing is I have been asked a few too many times about said books, and I am one to cut a problem at it's source before it developed. I also do not like the idea of using something I would not allow in my own games, since it would be hypocritical.

It's well-balanced, just convoluted. It's mentioned a lot because it plays well with almost any level of power except unoptimized Tier 5, most Tier 6, or powergamed tier 1. It's balanced with Psionics, Beguilers, ToB, and most similar classes. And if you want to be powerful without being a spellcaster/Psionicist, it's basically your best option other than ToB.

[Ozreth]

As for being playable vs. optimal, I am not into optimization. I just want a PC who can still be useful to the rest of the party, yet still give me the roleplaying opportunity I want of being able to get into said creature's mindset/style/mind/behavior/etc.

Amen to that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Uhh, you need 5 levels of Wildshape Ranger to get Wild Shape, just like a Druid (the ability is just copy/pasted).

Also: anyone else getting weird ideas for awakened plants? I'm not sure which is worse: the awakened sapling that's a binder, the one that's a wildshape ranger, or the one that's a bear warrior.

D'oh, I didn't look that closely at the wildshape range, but it still fits with room to spare before primeval. Even with 5 levels of WS ranger, and 1 level of barb, you still need one more BAB to qualify for primeval after the animal HD.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Amen to that.

Not caring about being optimal and not optimizing are different things. If all you do is play optimal builds, you have a rather limited set of options, and are decried as a munchkin. If all you do is play unoptimized builds, enjoy having barely (and in some cases, not) playable characters.

[Runestar]

There is a fine line between not being optimized, and being so weak that you are dead weight to your party (or worse, a hindrance).

Your wolf PC faces a number of unique limitations which I feel only ToB or MoI is in a position to resolve. You get only 1 natural attack, which has crappy damage, and never grant iterative attacks. While you can trip, your trip checks will likely not scale (or scale more slowly vs your opponents).

ToB solves this problem by letting you make the most out of your 1 attack / round, tacking on additional damage or useful rider-on effects. MoI grants you extra natural attacks, letting you keep up in the damage race.

As a bonus, the flavour of both already fit your wolf very well, IMO. Wolf tiger claw discipline?

Unless you waive the LA on an awakened wolf, I suggested worg because it is superior in every aspect. The worg has magical beast HD, granting full bab vs the wolf's animal HD (only its type changes, its HD remains the same - a common misintepretation), plus better physical stats. And you can always reflavour it as a wolf.

Trust me on this one - you don't need to suck just to prove that you are a genuine roleplayer. If anything, your players will thank you for taking the time and effort to build a competent wolf PC who can hold his (its?) own.

You can't roleplay if you are dead, after all.

[Glimbur]

D'oh, I didn't look that closely at the wildshape range, but it still fits with room to spare before primeval. Even with 5 levels of WS ranger, and 1 level of barb, you still need one more BAB to qualify for primeval after the animal HD.

They aren't animal hit dice. Awaken turns you into a Magical Beast, which among other things means full BAB.

Edit: I might be wrong, of course. But generally there's a clause that says not to recalculate skills and BAB and such on a type change. Look at Half-Celestial.

[Runestar]

They aren't animal hit dice. Awaken turns you into a Magical Beast, which among other things means full BAB.

Your type changes to magical beast. Your HD still remain animal in nature.

[Fail]

You don't want to use XPH.
You don't want to use MoI.
You don't want to use ToB.

That most likely means you don't want the game to be balanced.
That means you can:
1) play a monk and suck barring DM pity giving you the "collar of lupine teleportation", or
2) play a druid with natural spell and don't even care whether you have hands, Int higher than 2 or whatever, because you roast and eat the game at will.

You theoretically can try the magical beast here (in place of using published animal statistics)- though you'll likely dismiss it as "broken". That said, there is one glitch with it: the natural weapon options not being internally balanced - all of the initial sets should be 2 or 3 weapons (i.e. none should be 1 or 4, like some of those are), and increasing die size isn't as good as getting an extra one. Also, the source for the sphere rules is this.

[Thurbane]

You don't want to use XPH.
You don't want to use MoI.
You don't want to use ToB.

That most likely means you don't want the game to be balanced.

Or, you know, he doesn't have access to the books. (and yes, I know about the psionics sections of the SRD)

I'd go with a Fighter/Barbarian combo (Fighter dip for feats). Feats like Leap Attack might help to build up damage. Also, that feat in Draconomicon that gives you some iterative attacks with a natural attack (if you can qualify).

As always, I'm going to suggest some Binder - you can bind Savnok for some sweet full plate that appears on your body (pretty sure it doesn't specify that the armor has to be humanoid shaped). Paimon is a good vestige for mobility based builds.