Vow of Poverty Fix

[Duskranger]

Most of the time a VoP-wizard material costs are XP-costs. If I am correct it's 12,5 gp/1 xp

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.

One of the other party members can buy it for you and hold it until it's needed. Otherwise tough luck, it's your own fault for giving up material possessions.

[Tavar]

I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.

Actually, most spells don't require such a cost, so most concepts are still fine. And as the others said, you can always use XP instead of gp.


To the OP, was leaving out the Flaming enhancement intentional?

[Duskranger]

To the OP about the enhancements, isn't it better to put there a +1 enhancement. Since there are a lot more +1 enhancements than you have putted down there.

And why couldn't someone pick a +2 enhancement if he was at a higher level?

[Custos Sophiae]

That would be more flexible - any +1 enhancement at level 7, any+2 enhancement or combination at level 11, with total bonus increasing by one every four levels there after, and epic enhancements available once the total bonus rises to +6 at level 27. The precise enhancements can be potentially reassigned every time the bonus goes up.

[Vaynor]

A note for epic level extension - you could extend mind shielding to mind blank.

[Ralasha]

Actually there is an epic ability idea for VOP that could act as an extention of endure elements/sust. and it would be an ability to endure extraplanar effects.

[Vaynor]

Here's something that might work for epic VoP, I increased the speed at which you gain some abilities because it's epic, added mind blank at 21, gave them teleportation and plane shift, and then an eventual demigod status. Everything not noted below the table works as it does with normal VoP, but is gained at the level indicated on the table.

Epic VoP

Level	Benefits
21	Force Armor +11, Mind Blank, Bonus Feat
22	Empowered Strike +6, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +5
23	Resistance +6, Teleportation, Flight (4 times base speed), Domain
24	Force Armor +12, Ability Score Enhancement +12/+10/+8/+6/+4/+2, Deflection +6
25	Empowered Strike +7, Energy Resistance 20, Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction (15/varies)
26	Resistance +7, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +6, Domain
27	Force Armor +13, Plane Shift, Flight (5 times base speed)
28	Ability Score Enhancement +14/+12/+10/+8/+6/+4, Empowered Strike +8
29	Resistance +8, Bonus Feat, Wish, Domain
30	Enlightenment, Force Armor +14, Deflection +7, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +7, Energy Immunity, Damage Reduction (20/varies)

Mind Blank (Su): At level 21 the character gains a mind blank effect, as the spell mind blank.

Empowered Strike: At level 22, and every 3 levels thereafter, the weapons you wield's enhancement bonus increases by +1. Additionally, at level 22, and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain an additional enhancement bonus (+5 at level 22, +6 at level 26, etc.) that can be used to add weapon enhancements to the weapons you wield. This enhancement bonus may be used for any magical weapon ability, and can be reallocated when you gain a level.

Domain (Sp): At level 23 you may select a single domain. You gain 9 spell-like abilities, one for each spell level. These SLA's are usable 1/day. You also gain the domain ability if it applies to your classes. At level 26 you may select another domain, or lose access to your previous domain and gain a planar domain (SpC 282). A planar domain is effectively two domains). You gain 18 SLA's when you gain a planar domain, two for each spell level. You must meet all prerequisites for planar domains. At level 29 you gain a third domain (or second, if you chose to use a planar domain). Use your highest ability score to determine pertinent information such as Difficulty Class. Your caster level for these SLA's is equal to your ECL. You may choose the same domain twice, gaining each SLA twice instead of just once. However, you do not gain the effects of the domain ability twice.

If the character already has access to domains from a class, then the spells from the domains selected are considered domain spells for that class only. For example, a level 23 cleric with the Law and Healing domains that selected Sun as their level 23 domain could prepare any spell from the Sun domain in their domain spell slots, as well as any spell from the Law and Healing domains as normal.

Energy Immunity: At level 30 you may select an energy type. You are now immune to that energy type.

Teleportation (Su): At level 23 you gain the ability to teleport at will. By concentrating for one minute, you may teleport as the spell greater teleport. This ability only affects you.

Plane Shift (Su): At level 27 you gain the ability to plane shift at will. By concentrating for five minutes, you may shift planes as the spell plane shift. This ability only affects you.

Wish (Sp): At level 29 you gain the ability to cast wish once per day. The base 5,000 XP cost is halved, however any additional XP costs incurred by wish must be paid in full.

Enlightenment (Ex): You have achieved the pinnacle of your spiritual enlightenment. At level 30, you become a quasi-deity, granting divine rank 0. You are immortal, and no longer can die from old age. Additionally, you no longer suffer aging penalties (any previously incurred penalties are still in effect) but still gain the benefits of aging. You gain benefits of being a quasi-deity with divine rank 0, including and limited to the following: all future hit die are maximized, your base land speed increases to 60 ft., a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your Charisma modifier, immunity to transmutation, immunity to energy drain, ability damage, and ability drain. You are not able to grant spells.



If there are some more cool ability ideas I could slow down progressions and add some in.

[Kobold-Bard]

I like the Epic Progression. 1 nitpick though: Divine Rank 0 = Quasi God not Demigod. Demigod = DvR 1-5.

[Drolyt]

I'll make the changes about weapon enancements. As for epic levels, I currently have no plans to implement that. The post above me has a good system though.

[imp_fireball]

Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?

Even more evil: They're trained and brain washed to suicide bomb other orphanages and/or towns. Or groomed for sacrifice to an evil god or as guinea pigs for magical experiments (necromancy included).

Even that might not denote an 'evil' orphanage (it could just be a product of ignorance). But an evil VoP guy who knows better and donates there is commiting a clear act of evil since he's promoting more of it.

[Vaynor]

I like the Epic Progression. 1 nitpick though: Divine Rank 0 = Quasi God not Demigod. Demigod = DvR 1-5.

Bah, same thing.

Fixed.

Anyone have any ideas for level 29? Not much going on there and it's a pretty high level.

[imp_fireball]

{Scrubbed}

[Kobold-Bard]

Bah, same thing.

Fixed.

Anyone have any ideas for level 29? Not much going on there and it's a pretty high level.

That's why I called it a nitpick

Wish 1/day maybe (limited to the listed effects)? Just off the top of my head, that might be horribly unbalanced.

[imp_fireball]

That's why I called it a nitpick

Wish 1/day maybe (limited to the listed effects)? Just off the top of my head, that might be horribly unbalanced.

How about in order to become epic with VoP (gain epic benefits) you must please the right gods. This depends on your alignment and the gods that you do please are at GM discretion. Pleasing the gods really just means earning their favor depending on your actions over the past 20 levels (so no additional things need to be done; although it could be GM's discretion whether they want to throw in an additional quest).

You could gain wish, but its the gods (the ones who granted you the epic VoP stuff) decision to fulfill the wish. Usually, the wish must stay strongly in line with the philosophy behind VoP (the concerning gods' philosophy).

[Kobold-Bard]

How about in order to become epic with VoP (gain epic benefits) you must please the right gods. This depends on your alignment and the gods that you do please are at GM discretion.

You could gain wish, but its the gods (the ones who granted you the epic VoP stuff) decision to fulfill the wish. Usually, the wish must stay strongly in line with the philosophy behind VoP (the concerning god's philosophy).

Thing about this VoP is that it is a personal choice to eschew material possessions not something decided by your alignment or the god you follow. Atheists are welcome to take this too.

[imp_fireball]

Atheists are welcome to take this too.

Even atheists can attract the attention of the gods. The flexibility of VoP determines exactly what kind of gods the character attracts (the character doesn't need to be aware of the god's existence either; they merely show up because the character has impressed them).

[Tome]

Even atheists can attract the attention of the gods. The flexibility of VoP determines exactly what kind of gods the character attracts (the character doesn't need to be aware of the god's existence either; they merely show up because the character has impressed them).

This could ruin a lot of themes that an atheist VoP character could be using. I, personally, feel that it would be a horrible idea. This works much better if it doesn't require any divine involvement. Also, it would be totally borked if you used it in Eberron.

[Ralasha]

An Atheist can still be a True Believer, it just requires a tweek, instead of believing in a god, they believe there is no god, in this way you could add that as a prerequisite for Epic VOP. It would also help to explain the Deific changes, also: deities of any rank do not need Wish, they can alter reality. Think of their DvR as coming from their faith, and being an effect of it. Also, a hero deity/quasi-deity can grant spells. Every Deity has at least one domain, even if it is shared. A Rank 0 Deity in Faerun for instance, with the magic domain, would have to be one that believes in a god of magic. In turn however, for an Atheist, you could grant them DvR 0 and give them other abilities instead, such as a Divine Power Resistance, their belief that you have no power is so great that you have difficulty effecting them.

[imp_fireball]

This could ruin a lot of themes that an atheist VoP character could be using. I, personally, feel that it would be a horrible idea. This works much better if it doesn't require any divine involvement. Also, it would be totally borked if you used it in Eberron.

Well, it varies from setting to setting. Some settings have no gods at all or the gods don't care enough about mortal affairs and divine spell casting is merely a psychic 'trickle down' affect of faith in given deities - or perhaps those deities don't exist at all and it is faith in the domains that grants power, and mortals merely attach belief and moral ideology to it as they like, spinning tall tales of supposed gods that represent their faith - some could be mere mascots while others could be treated very seriously despite being entirely fictional (fiction within fiction).

If the powers of an atheist have to be entirely mundane, then perhaps an outsider has been pleased or the atheist themself has transcended certain forces of the universe that keep him mortal.

You could include that as an exception (foot note or whatever) below what I've already said in the above post.

I understand that the above post I wrote works better for agnostics rather then atheists.

God: Congratulations Mortimer, your path in life has pleased me to no end. I shall now grant you such powers as to further our uniting ideals.

Mortimer the Atheist: But I don't believe in you so how can you grant me powers?

God: Your belief in me matters not, for you have pleased me such that I present myself before you. It is my belief in you that has brought me here at this hour and I am now here to embolden your future undertakings in my image. For it coallesces with your own no doubt.

Motimer the Atheist: Bah, I refuse to acknowledge your status! You are no god, just a wizard most likely.

God: I'm sorry? Here I am giving you powers to further your ideals which match my own and you won't even acknowledge my grandeur? That's pretty rude y'know.

Mortimer the Atheist: This conversation is over.

God: B-but -

Mortimer the Atheist: I'm leaving!

God: Aw, you're no fun.

[Kobold-Bard]

An Atheist can still be a True Believer, it just requires a tweek, instead of believing in a god, they believe there is no god, in this way you could add that as a prerequisite for Epic VOP. It would also help to explain the Deific changes, also: deities of any rank do not need Wish, they can alter reality. Think of their DvR as coming from their faith, and being an effect of it. Also, a hero deity/quasi-deity can grant spells. Every Deity has at least one domain, even if it is shared. A Rank 0 Deity in Faerun for instance, with the magic domain, would have to be one that believes in a god of magic.

DvR0 doesn't give Salient Divine Abilities, so no, they can't Alter Reality.

I don't believe even that explanation works either. Not everyone either ffollows a God/ignores them entirely. A good example is , he knows they exist but they have absolutely no impact on his life except to power his hairy friend's healing abilities.

Why should someone like that (who has never had any connection to a God) be forced to do as that God he has never followed says, just because he hit a certain level.

It would work in some cases, but in some it completely undermines the character.

[imp_fireball]

DvR0 doesn't give Salient Divine Abilities, so no, they can't Alter Reality.

I don't believe even that explanation works either. Not everyone either ffollows a God/ignores them entirely. A good example is , he knows they exist but they have absolutely no impact on his life except to power his hairy friend's healing abilities.

Why should someone like that (who has never had any connection to a God) be forced to do as that God he has never followed says, just because he hit a certain level.

It would work in some cases, but in some it completely undermines the character.

They don't have to follow any god to any length. They don't have to believe in any god. The god just appears before them and makes a bargain with them (or offers them friendship) and they gain powers. It's like meeting a dragon one day who decides to give you some of his abilities via (whatever) because he agrees with you.

The god then says, "If we're going to continue being friends, these are the terms."

The VoP could probably break those terms and then negotiate with another god, but this is very difficult (not only mechanically) because other gods would find him untrustworthy (unless they are min/maxers that know how to exploit gods).

The VoP can negotiate the terms with the god via diplomacy. But most likely his character would agree with the terms. The god is assumed to have studied the character and in their wisdom feel that the character would probably agree with the terms, which are usually very close to (or mimic) the terms of their VoP already.

[Kobold-Bard]

They don't have to follow any god to any length. They don't have to believe in any god. The god just appears before them and makes a bargain with them (or offers them friendship) and they gain powers. It's like meeting a dragon one day who decides to give you some of his abilities via (whatever) because he agrees with you.

But why does it need to have a God at all?

Up until this there has been no mention of Gods etc. in the Feat, why all of a sudden does there have to be one appearing to give you this new power instead of it just developping like all the rest.

[Vaynor]

I get the idea and it seems like it could be great fluff for a religious character, but there's absolutely no point in making it a requirement for the character to progress with the feat. So, a good option, but just that, optional.

[imp_fireball]

But why does it need to have a God at all?

Up until this there has been no mention of Gods etc. in the Feat, why all of a sudden does there have to be one appearing to give you this new power instead of it just developping like all the rest.

Well I gave an explanation dependent upon setting. There's also the explanation for atheists.

The main thing though is that VoP is a way of life that involves some form of honor. Inevitably, it'd attract the attention of some deities (I don't think a chosen lifestyle actually grants anything unless you are to transcend to become deific yourself; at early levels they are assumed to spend more time improving their bodies because they haven't wasted it on spending frivolties. They are automatically bad asses because they can get through such a life style without ability score penalties.). That's just IMO though.

It may be a good idea to make it optional. Say that there are various ways in which epic VoP could be acquired but the main one would be gods (and then include other sample possibilities in exceptions).

This is generally WotC style for making something seem necessary but really allowing lee-way for other fluff.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well I gave an explanation dependent upon setting. There's also the explanation for atheists.

The main thing though is that VoP is a way of life that involves some form of honor. Inevitably, it'd attract the attention of some deities (I don't think a chosen lifestyle actually grants anything unless you are to transcend to become deific yourself; at early levels they are assumed to spend more time improving their bodies because they haven't wasted it on spending frivolties. They are automatically bad asses because they can get through such a life style without ability score penalties.). That's just IMO though.

Thing is though you could be C/E and just enjoy breaking magic items and chucking money at a rust monster to see poor people cry, and you could still gain this fixed Feat. It's not intrinsically about honour.

I still say Wish 1/day is a good ability for Level 29 (after all Wizards have had it available for 13 levels).

[Vaynor]

I added the Wish ability, epic progression should be all good now, unless someone else has a good idea.

[BLiZme.2]

As Wrote a spell book dose not radiate magic unless it is being used to prepare spells and then the reader detects as magic to just like a wizard with spells on the brain dose not count as radiating magic if there are no active spells.
Sorry everyone I was posting on three threads at once and forgot that I had not spell checked this post my bad.

[Vaynor]

Gesundheit.

[Roderick_BR]

I recommend changing that.

Why? Any non-permanent effect is already allowed in the original. You can't buy yourself a +5 sword, but nothing keeps the wizard or cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it.