Estimate the LA of this Hillariously Bad Custom Race

[term1nally s1ck]

I'd say LA: -4.

Mostly because I can overcome all those problems with 3 LA templates, with the exception of the no casting/anything stuff. The RHD can be annnihilated by Restoration cheese, and technically means that with scrolls of restoration, you can level yourself up for cash.

And Your RHD count towards your ECL. The TOTAL XP you need to level up is determined by your ECL. There's no such thing as xp to next level, you keep all xp when you level up, it just takes a certain total to reach your next level.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd say LA: -4.
And Your RHD count towards your ECL. The TOTAL XP you need to level up is determined by your ECL. There's no such thing as xp to next level, you keep all xp when you level up, it just takes a certain total to reach your next level.

What if we make these RHD as an exception and free? Sorta like how Bloodlines don't count for ECL but are free.

[AstralFire]

And Your RHD count towards your ECL.

No; this race is different.

[Felyndiira]

Healing belt or CLW wand (UMD). Remember you auto bypass your own SR.

I made an explicit exception for using UMD/USD on yourself. That doesn't change the fact, however, that making the character marginally usable through massive magic item abuse isn't enough grounds for saying that a penalty is insignificant (after all, a 0 LA half-elf can use UMD as well, and doesn't have to pack gear specifically to counter 9000+ units of class crappiness).

If anything, the "oh you can't play anything with spellcasting/manifesting ever" is itself worth a lot of negative LA, and the SR should be viewed as a hindrance instead of a boon.

[AstralFire]

Targeted AMF bracers and a handful of common items from MIC are massive item magic abuse? Forcing it to starting out in a mid-to-high level game (which would be doable by, as I suggested, giving it a minimum LA and having it adjust proportionally) would make those easily swallowed.

[term1nally s1ck]

IF the RHD don't count towards ECL, I'd say for 'casual gamers' It could be up to -4. That eliminates the restoration cheese, and with the simple adjustment of an undead template, you dodge the maddening scream.

For Optimisers, needs to be at most -2. The extra HD give them early entry to a lot of PrCs, and you can still get a lot of cheese from melee classes with enough combining of PrC abilities. I'd say a -1 wouldn't be a horiffic cost. (Grab a haste effect for the speed, get flying somehow, and diminuitive is excellent. I'd grab some of those fighting big folk feats and be a massive pain in the ass, asap. Not the most optimal character, but playable.

[Felyndiira]

I should probably restate that:

Making a race with heavy penalties barely LA 0 through the use of UMD and specific magical items doesn't mean that those penalties are non-existent.

In the case of this race, it has very few bonuses (the extra HD is probably the only thing significant here) and has penalties that make it depend on magic items for its very survival. The fact that the character's debuffs can be negated with targetted AMF bracers plus a bunch of other things doesn't change the fact that another LA 0 race can get every bonus this class gives and more with a slightly different set of magic items (even the HD can be offset by defensive items/+CON stuff). To add icing to the cake, they can actually receive buffs from other players, and they can get UMD as a bonus instead of a necessity without having to be dependent on specific magic items that it has no chance of crafting.

TBH I don't see this class being worth any LA, free HD/high levels or not. If you're going to use optimizing equipment as an argument for positive LA, I could also argue that having a druid with UMD and another LA +0 race is much better.

[AstralFire]

Balancing the game around Tier 1 is a losing proposition, see how WotC failed to do it whatsoever.

I'm eyeballing and rusty, but I'm fairly certain that making use of additional (level(d6+con) HP), half progression BAB, (level/3 Fortitude), ((level/2)+2) Reflex and Will, (level(6+Int) skill points), an extra feat every three levels, a greatly raised maximum skill rank limit, nearly effective spell immunity, and immunity to enemy attacks that target humanoids at high levels is not difficult even for people with a casual eye for optimization.

You'll get a lot of early PrC entry.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

This race reminds me of:

Huh?

You haven't met PlzBreakMyCmpAn before, have you?

Sigging

perhaps the Maddening Scream effect should not be a compulsion either.

Ya I'll change it if y'all want

Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP.

Good job

I see something completely different, even without the maddening scream. Many of the penalties of this class are a direct cause of the dimunitive size, which makes said enlarging fighters and druids (which work by modifying size) drop a good portion of the class's bonuses (4 attack and 4 AC, namely).

The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.

Thus, the class has the following advantages:

• +4 STR and CON
• Dimunitive Size
• High SR

It has the following disadvantages:

• Cannot take a single tier 1 class ever (except maybe artificer), or any other class with a spell or psionic list.
• Cannot use normal spells
• Unsupressable SR. Say what you will about it, the SR will prevent every good spell from taking effect on this character unless if he casts it himself. With pretty much all TU classes denied to the character and no chance at persist, it means rebuffing before every battle - that is, assuming that he can actually get most of the magic items he absolutely depends on in the first place.
• -4 DEX, INT, and CHA
• Practically +1 automatic LA for every level gained. The fey levels give nothing but one hit die.
• Horrid reach and base speed; requires UMD or carefully chosen feats to get past due to SR
• The most idiotic land speed ever. He runs slower than most characters walk.
• -12 Racial Penalty on skill checks.
• -12 Penalty on ranged attacks, making bows useless.

I highly doubt the raceis worth that much given how many penalties he has, and how much careful optimization + wealth you need just to get over those weaknesses and take advantage of the character's miniscule strengths (optimization that can get you a lot more than just +4 STR). Therefore, I propose that this class should get a +10 LA, just because the list is long and looks impressive, which is of course what Wizard cares about.

You, sir (madam?), understand this thread

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.

Eh. Honestly crappy saves, bab and hd should make no difference. Actually I could say it can go either way, free or not free, whatever. I do feel confident the xp totals shouldn't go wonky though.

Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:

Even assuming free HD..., and depends on high UMD and magical items for, well, everything.

Actually no UMD. That would be a spell-completion item

It was even worse than you feared!

Non-spell completion magic, shadow magic, psionic items, and pact magic items function normally.

I'd say LA: -4.

THANK YOU

This is what I came to also. Thinking with templates is good

Balancing the game around Tier 1

(level(6+Int) skill points)... a greatly raised maximum skill rank limit

this nerfs most all tier 2 and a good chunk of 3. Just sayin'. Also 0+int and all cross-class

There are ways to fix 'free HD'-> PrC early entry, also. That wasn't the point here. See my PrC early entry handbook if you think having some extra BaB is just too awesome (prepare for you head to explode though)

[AstralFire]

this nerfs most all tier 2 and a good chunk of 3. Just sayin'. Also 0+int and all cross-class

I didn't propose a fix or anything, so I'm not sure where that came from.

[UglyPanda]

And Your RHD count towards your ECL.

No; this race is different.

Wait, how? I don't see where it is listed that it has special ECL rules.

[Myou]

LA: No.

It's just stupid on so many levels. Where did it come from?

[AstralFire]

Wait, how? I don't see where it is listed that it has special ECL rules.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=59

[fryplink]

LA -6

you could burn the negative LA on some undead type getting rid of the living creature requirement of maddening scream

or take a class that turns you into a construct (green star adept gives spell casting, but theres has got to be others) which "kills" you, ruining maddening scream

anything that makes maddening screams target:living creature not work anymore makes the race playable