Estimate the LA of this Hillariously Bad Custom Race

[Roderick_BR]

How do the Bonus Racial HDs act with experience? Do you automatically gain two levels when it level-ups or what? Also, how the hell did Initiators end up in the "No"-list? O.o

Even better, why is initiator in a "magic inability" list? He shouldn't be able to take feats as well then, since initiators are not more magic than combat feats</nitpick> He couldn't get the supernatural maneuvers at least.

-Infinity. It can't take actions.

Doesn't his insanelly high SR protect himself from it? with that huge Cha penalty, he'll never bypass his own SR.
Btw, if he can't use any form of magic, why does he has a spell-like ability?
I'd say that he at least would take a massive penalty to Move Silently checks as well.

[magic9mushroom]

Doesn't his insanelly high SR protect himself from it? with that huge Cha penalty, he'll never bypass his own SR.
Btw, if he can't use any form of magic, why does he has a spell-like ability?
I'd say that he at least would take a massive penalty to Move Silently checks as well.

No, because it's continuous effect. You don't ever get a new SR check against things that are already affecting you.

And there's actually nothing stopping him using SLAs. He can take Warlock.

[erikun]

Undead are immune to Compulsions, and Maddening Scream is a compulsion effect. Thus, a Necropolitan Pipsqueek is immune to the continuous Maddening Scream. Without that, it is quite superior to other LA +0 races, even without the ability to use magic.

I'd give it LA -- because it is inappropriate for a PC race. I wouldn't allow something like this in a game, and would make the player re-write it if they seriously wanted to play something like this.

[DragoonWraith]

Even better, why is initiator in a "magic inability" list?

Right. Clearly, the Pipsqueek simply has racial immunity to nice things. Pipsqueeks can never have nice things.

[Starbuck_II]

Right. Clearly, the Pipsqueek simply has racial immunity to nice things. Pipsqueeks can never have nice things.

Then why aren't they fighters?

[DragoonWraith]

Hahaha, I just noticed that they don't have a Favored Class. So, they can be, they'll just be bad at it like they are everything else.

So who else thinks this was an attempt to stat someone's little sister?

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, don't they get an experience penalty by level 3? Since RHD do count against Exp penalties unless that is a favored class.
So they can never multiclass.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Guys don't "LA: -" on me. I know its bad. The question is how bad.

No, Maddening Scream specifically targets living creatures.

Since its continuous wouldn't it only matter that you start living? Though this version is non-mind-affecting. So mind-blank won't work on it (perhaps mindless undead will supress it temporarily though)

How do the Bonus Racial HDs act with experience?

I would assume it wouldn't change experience needed, if I understood the intent right.

those RHD count towards ECL.

Even if the RHD didn't count towards ECL, this race would still blow. Hmm I like that idea though

the spell resistance stops the spell sometimes, since it's so randomly high.

It being high is bad in this case because of it can't be suppressed for buffs and if beaten you are dazed

Can you use the Restoration Trick mentioned in the Jakeverse-Thread on the fey-levels to trade them in for something useful? If so, would you then gain a fey-level corresponding to your new classlevel?

It would seem the RHD are after the LA or CL so this would work.

I'd give it LA +5. Because WOTC has no idea how much LA a race should have and always puts way more than is necessary. Why should we do any different?

I love this answer

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

wildshape into something that isn't diminutive.

There are non-casting ways to gain wildshape. Good catch.

And there's actually nothing stopping him using SLAs. He can take Warlock.

Very true.

Undead are immune to Compulsions, and Maddening Scream is a compulsion effect.

Its not mind affecting. The fact that its a compulsion doesn't matter, its only the mind-affecting part that undead are immune to. However I seem to remember a PrC that gives immunity to compulsions.

ZOMG Dragonborn Pipsqueak?

Yes this was what I thought of too. But remember the spellcasting inability never goes away.

If you want to know I had a solution that required about 9LA of templates to get this about as useful as a mist dragon wyrmling

[AstralFire]

Targeted anti-magic bracers as mentioned above that only neutralize a target's casting abilities, along with the fact that racial hit die are 'free' and do not cost an experience penalty would lead me to say that it has a minimum Level Adjustment of +2 and must enter play with a minimum of 4 Class Level/4 Fey HD when a party is ECL 6, which would be about when it could afford said bracers (This is a wild guess), and continues to have a level adjustment of 50% of its experience level. It is far too useless to be played without racial template cheese at low levels, and far too strong with certain classes and that magic item to go without a level adjustment.

[ericgrau]

Wait, don't they get an experience penalty by level 3? Since RHD do count against Exp penalties unless that is a favored class.
So they can never multiclass.

RHD are always counted as a favored class.

[Starbuck_II]

RHD are always counted as a favored class.

I don't believe the validity of that statement. Do you have a source?

[tyckspoon]

I don't believe the validity of that statement. Do you have a source?

Monsters and Class Levels

f a creature acquires a character class...
A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

[BenTheJester]

This race reminds me of:

[The Dark Fiddler]

This race reminds me of:

Except they don't have the government to protect them.

[Flickerdart]

Seriously? This is an LA -- race. It is literally unplayable without cheese. You want an estimate of how bad it is? That's how bad. 10 worthless HD, inability to take actions, incredible fragility and general uselessness...what exactly is the point of this...thing?

[Grumman]

what exactly is the point of this...thing?

You haven't met PlzBreakMyCmpAn before, have you?

[erikun]

Guys don't "LA: -" on me. I know its bad. The question is how bad.

The problem isn't that it's bad - it's that it's unplayable. It's like having a class with an ability: "Roll a d20. On a 1-19, the character is irreversably eradicated. On a 20, the character becomes a rank 20 overdeity." There is no way you can rank that, as it is completely unplayable one way or the other.

The only thing I can recommend is to look ignore the broken part of the race (the Maddening Scream) and look at how strong the rest is. I see +6 attack, +2 damage, -3 AC, very high SR, and the inability to cast spells. That's a lot of bonuses overall, especially with some builds that can ignore the penalities (enlarging fighter, druids). The unusual racial hit dice make things difficult, pushing the race more into melee territory.

This could lead to some absurd characters, again assuming a way to bypass the Maddening Scream. I'd put it at LA+5 if I really needed to stat it, although I'd like to playtest it to be sure how accurate that is.

Its not mind affecting. The fact that its a compulsion doesn't matter, its only the mind-affecting part that undead are immune to. However I seem to remember a PrC that gives immunity to compulsions.

The Undead type is immune to compulsions. Mind you, it doesn't make any sense for an effect to be a compulsion and not be mind-affecting, so perhaps the Maddening Scream effect should not be a compulsion either.

[JaronK]

Seems fine, because Dragonborn gets rid of the negatives and then you have +4 Str and +6 Con. Not bad for a charging Barbarian type. And being that small really helps with Confound the Big Folk and that other feat for attacking bigger foes.

JaronK

[UglyPanda]

So who else thinks this was an attempt to stat someone's little sister?

...Arson joke...
I'm guessing this was some sort of inside joke concerning a short girl who is disconcertingly strong for her size but still very weak overall.

I don't think it's a sister. An attempt to stat an annoying little sister would have had the ability to cause other people madness.


Which of this thing's abilities are Ex and which are Su? I'm not even sure I'd consider Dragonborn or Necropolitan actual options considering that they're both ritual templates. If a character can't actually perform the rituals, it's useless. Then again, it's a thought exercise, so you might as well count it.

[Alleine]

Why you give it a dagger fit for a pipsqueek of course. A very small, quite dull, amazingly ineffectual dagger. Only for use by a pipsqueek or its kin.
Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I totally agree with the +5 LA though. I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP.

[Temotei]

Why you give it a dagger fit for a pipsqueek of course. A very small, quite dull, amazingly ineffectual dagger. Only for use by a pipsqueek or its kin.
Desperately hoping the pipsqueek is a reference to an obscure game. Most likely not.
I totally agree with the +5 LA though. I mean come on, it has a +4 str and con, and everyone knows that melee is OP.

I'd say +8 LA. The vampire is a good comparison.

[Maloric]

Ok I'm confused. Why do people think maddening scream isn't a mind affecting effect? The SRD clearly states that it is.

<edit, Nevermind I reread the original post. While it is under the effect of Maddening Scream for some reason it's stated it is not mind affecting, now I'm even more confused>

Maddening Scream
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

And even if it doesn't specifically state the Mind-Affecting part beside the Compulsion, the SRD also states:

"Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells."

Am I looking at the wrong SRD?

Oh and as to the OP, this race is clearly unplayable. Either it does nothing or someone gets around the maddening scream restriction (Mind Blank, becoming undead, etc) and is suddenly amazing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd say +8 LA. The vampire is a good comparison.

Actually, I'd argue that the Shadow Vampire from Dragon 348 is a more accurate comparison. LA +10.

[Felyndiira]

The only thing I can recommend is to look ignore the broken part of the race (the Maddening Scream) and look at how strong the rest is. I see +6 attack, +2 damage, -3 AC, very high SR, and the inability to cast spells. That's a lot of bonuses overall, especially with some builds that can ignore the penalities (enlarging fighter, druids). The unusual racial hit dice make things difficult, pushing the race more into melee territory.

I see something completely different, even without the maddening scream. Many of the penalties of this class are a direct cause of the dimunitive size, which makes said enlarging fighters and druids (which work by modifying size) drop a good portion of the class's bonuses (4 attack and 4 AC, namely).

The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.

Thus, the class has the following advantages:

• +4 STR and CON
• Dimunitive Size
• High SR

It has the following disadvantages:

• Cannot take a single tier 1 class ever (except maybe artificer), or any other class with a spell or psionic list.
• Cannot use normal spells
• Unsupressable SR. Say what you will about it, the SR will prevent every good spell from taking effect on this character unless if he casts it himself. With pretty much all TU classes denied to the character and no chance at persist, it means rebuffing before every battle - that is, assuming that he can actually get most of the magic items he absolutely depends on in the first place.
• -4 DEX, INT, and CHA
• Practically +1 automatic LA for every level gained. The fey levels give nothing but one hit die.
• Horrid reach and base speed; requires UMD or carefully chosen feats to get past due to SR
• The most idiotic land speed ever. He runs slower than most characters walk.
• -12 Racial Penalty on skill checks.
• -12 Penalty on ranged attacks, making bows useless.

I highly doubt the raceis worth that much given how many penalties he has, and how much careful optimization + wealth you need just to get over those weaknesses and take advantage of the character's miniscule strengths (optimization that can get you a lot more than just +4 STR). Therefore, I propose that this class should get a +10 LA, just because the list is long and looks impressive, which is of course what Wizard cares about.

[AstralFire]

The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.

That's the only thing that allows me to make any sort of level adjustment suggestion; even though proportional LA isn't exactly standard, a flat level adjustment above +2 is almost always a death sentence, or it's something grossly overpowered at high class levels.

[Aharon]

Greater Spell Immunity would also do the trick to get rid of the maddening scream.

Disregard that.

[Felyndiira]

The Racial Hit Die are free and give no ECL adjustment.

That's the only thing that allows me to make any sort of level adjustment suggestion; even though proportional LA isn't exactly standard, a flat level adjustment above +2 is almost always a death sentence, or it's something grossly overpowered at high class levels.

Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:

A pipsqueek gains equal levels of fey when it gains class levels or LA.

Even assuming free HD, I think most people on this thread are sorta missing the race's other plethora of nerfs. More specifically, he cannot take any class with a spell list on it (so he can't buff himself naturally), cannot reliable receive buffs from others (the SR cannot be suppressed), and depends on high UMD and magical items for, well, everything.

[AstralFire]

Really? The wording kinda suggested to me that the HD are not free, but are actual levels gained and counting towards ECL:

I would assume it wouldn't change experience needed, if I understood the intent right.

That was the Topic Creator, so I'm taking that as truth because it's the only way remotely possible to give this thing anything but a - for LA.

Don't get me wrong, the race absolutely blows in design, but I'm pretty sure with good magic item usage, it can actually be made use of.

[Starbuck_II]

The SR here is an absolute hinderance. The class may work well as a druid, but his abilities bar him from ever taking a single class in druid due to it being a magic class. The 80 SR also prevents him from effectively receiving buffs from outside sources (ala no GMW, no vigor, etc.). Thus, the class is practically roped into playing a physical combat class with enough UMD to support himself, all for a few measly bonuses.

Healing belt or CLW wand (UMD). Remember you auto bypass your own SR.