Ur-Priest

[Zergrusheddie]

I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

[Gnaeus]

If you enter at level 5 it gets 9th level cleric spells by level 14, 3 levels before anyone else. It is especially strong when put in combination with other rapid casting classes (like sublime chord) and dual casting PRCs like Mystic Theurge.

[Kylarra]

I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

9th level divine casting in 9 levels. Great with theurge type characters or to just give yourself full divine casting in half the normal time.

[Starbuck_II]

I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It gets spells levels faster than a base class.

A Rogue can enter it by 5th (since require skills) and gain 9th level spells before a Straight Cleric would.

[Zergrusheddie]

However, it states that it adds 1/2 the levels of other Spellcasting classes, not ever class. I probably reading it wrong so an in depth explanation is probably required.

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, Bard probably works better.

If you believe the Sample character: you don't need 17th caster level to use 9th level spells.

Their example is a 4th level caster with 4th level spells (Cleric levels don't count). The characte is 4th Cleric/1 Rogue/Ur Priest 4 = 0 (Cleric no count) +1/2 of 1 (round down to 0) + 4 caster.

[SaintRidley]

However, it states that it adds 1/2 the levels of other Spellcasting classes, not ever class. I probably reading it wrong so an in depth explanation is probably required.

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

That's for caster level, which doesn't have anything to do with the spell level.

[The Glyphstone]

That makes it even cheesier. When you combine Ur-Priest with spellcasting-advancing PrC's, it starts double-dipping at 1.5/level. With the Criminal background feat, a Wizard 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 has 9th level arcane spells at CL18, and 9th level divine spells at CL 21 (effective UP level 12, +5 for 10 levels of MT, +4 for 8 levels of wizard).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That's for caster level, which doesn't have anything to do with the spell level.

Yeah, spell level is much more important than caster level. Without using the stuff Glyphstone mentioned, a [non-caster] 5/Ur-Priest 10 has a caster level of just 10, but it still gets those high-level spells early, so it doesn't really matter.

[DragoonWraith]

It's one of the few ways to make a Mystic Theurge worth playing. And as a Mystic Theurge, you're not going to get any Divine spellcasting early. Two lost Wizard spellcasting levels for a few Cleric spells per day? Seems reasonable to me.

[magic9mushroom]

I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It's Cleric in 10 levels. Cleric in 20 levels is a Tier 1 class. See the problem?

Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

[PhoenixRivers]

Best class to enter Ur Priest from: Bard (Savage Bard variant, UA).

Without Early entry, you'll need to be Bard 5.

Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Psychic Theurge 1

9th level arcane and divine spells by Level 20, as well as 4th level psionic powers.

There are other examples that are less balanced.

Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

No you don't. Summoned creatures never grant spells that cost XP, or SLA's that would cost XP if they were normally cast. You need Called creatures for that.

[magic9mushroom]

No you don't. Summoned creatures never grant spells that cost XP, or SLA's that would cost XP if they were normally cast. You need Called creatures for that.

Yeah, yeah, I slipped up. I meant Called.

Although, the ability is "grant three wishes", not "wish". It's 1/day. So technically, it's not an SLA that would cost XP if it were cast, because it doesn't duplicate a spell.

[PhoenixRivers]

Yeah, yeah, I slipped up. I meant Called.

Although, the ability is "grant three wishes", not "wish". It's 1/day. So technically, it's not an SLA that would cost XP if it were cast, because it doesn't duplicate a spell.

Ah, but then, there's no rules at all for defining how they function, now are there? So technically, nothing happens, because there's no rules at all to adjudicate how the ability functions.

Can't have it both ways, friend. Can't use the spell rules to determine how it functions, then states that it isn't the spell.

By my interpretation? The SLA does duplicate a spell. Three times.

[magic9mushroom]

Ah, but then, there's no rules at all for defining how they function, now are there? So technically, nothing happens, because there's no rules at all to adjudicate how the ability functions.

Can't have it both ways, friend. Can't use the spell rules to determine how it functions, then states that it isn't the spell.

By my interpretation? The SLA does duplicate a spell. Three times.

I was only half serious and was playing devil's advocate. (Or munchkin's advocate, as the case may be.)

Also, if you have enough Int to get all those skill points, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1 is a great entry for Ur-Priest.

[PhoenixRivers]

I was only half serious and was playing devil's advocate. (Or munchkin's advocate, as the case may be.)

Also, if you have enough Int to get all those skill points, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1 is a great entry for Ur-Priest.

With the right Tricks?

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Wizard 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Wizard) 8 / Psychic Theurge 3

or

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Wiz PrC 4
Alternately:

Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 2 / Subverted Psion 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

9th level arcane and divine, everything off wisdom (since wis determines max taint score for Sublime Chord now), DCs/bonus spells on arcane side set by taint.

[magic9mushroom]

With the right Tricks?

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Wizard 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Wizard) 8 / Psychic Theurge 3

or

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Wiz PrC 4
Alternately:

Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 2 / Subverted Psion 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

9th level arcane and divine, everything off wisdom (since wis determines max taint score for Sublime Chord now), DCs/bonus spells on arcane side set by taint.

If you're going down that route, you can tidy everything up dramatically by just taking Beholder Mage. I was assuming we weren't getting into stupendous cheese like that.

[PhoenixRivers]

That's where I draw the line. Beholder Mage is bad. Just bad. Anything that messes with action economy is worse than most other things.

And that PrC bends action economy over and... institutes corporal punishment via spanking.

With a hammer.

[magic9mushroom]

That's where I draw the line. Beholder Mage is bad. Just bad. Anything that messes with action economy is worse than most other things.

And that PrC bends action economy over and... institutes corporal punishment via spanking.

With a hammer.

It's not much worse than Tainted "I can kill you with 90% certainty with a level 4 spell" Scholar (especially combined with Subverted Psion). If you just want 9th level arcane and divine, then just go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/PrC of choice 4.

[PhoenixRivers]

It's not much worse than Tainted "I can kill you with 90% certainty with a level 4 spell" Scholar (especially combined with Subverted Psion). If you just want 9th level arcane and divine, then just go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/PrC of choice 4.

Tainted scholar can be stopped by a counterspell specialist.
Beholder Mage can be stopped by 5 counterspell specialists.

There's the difference.

I listed non-tainted scholar builds in there, as well, for those that want to limit their cheese intake.

[magic9mushroom]

I just think Savage Bard and Sublime Chord are overcomplicating things when you can get 9th level in both without them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All of the above, plus a little known point: the ur-priest can craft many magic items cheaper than even an artificer. PHB pg 171 says that a spell must be cast at a minimum caster level. The minimum caster level for a spell is equal to the level in the spell-casting class that grants access to that spell. The wording in the ur-priest's spell-casting class feature says that he casts spells from the ur-priest spell list, which is identical to the cleric spell list. This means that the minimum caster level for an ur-priest spell is the same as the spell level of that spell. The formulas for many magic items are Caster level*spell level*X. Example: Wands, a wand of a fourth level cleric spell costs 7(cl)*4(spell level)*750=21000 while the same wand crafted by an ur-priest would only cost 4(cl)*4(spell level)*750=12000. That's a more than a 40% discount. Take the crafting cost reduction feats from ECS and you can get some mighty cheap cleric spells. Though now that I think about it, I guess an artificer could make copies of ur-priest spells in his crafting too.

[Eloel]

I guess an artificer could make copies of ur-priest spells in his crafting too.

Artificer can now create 9th level cleric scrolls for 1k + some crafting xp?
Yay.

[Starbuck_II]

Could an Archivist learn Ur-Priest spells at those levels?

[Eloel]

Could an Archivist learn Ur-Priest spells at those levels?

Archivist can't -cast- spells anyhow...

[Pluto]

I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It's also worth pointing out that it's often talked up to be a bit stronger than it deserves.
(see the claims talking it up as a powerhouse at ECL 10, despite the feats it sinks, its miniscule spells per day, its lack of domains, etc.)

It's mostly useful for putting 9th level spells into high-level builds that wouldn't normally be able to fit all the necessary levels in.

[Eloel]

It's also worth pointing out that it's often talked up to be a bit stronger than it deserves.
(see the claims talking it up as a powerhouse at ECL 10, despite the feats it sinks, its miniscule spells per day, its lack of domains, etc.)

It's mostly useful for putting 9th level spells into high-level builds that wouldn't normally be able to fit all the necessary levels in.

It lets you get 10 levels of -other classes- compared to a cleric.
10 levels of goodies beat 2 domains any day.

Also, cookies for your signature.

[2xMachina]

It's Cleric in 10 levels. Cleric in 20 levels is a Tier 1 class. See the problem?

Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

Eh, you just have to near them. You can basically just look at 1, and get wishes without them even knowing.

[Pluto]

It lets you get 10 levels of -other classes- compared to a cleric.

Right.

I'm not saying it isn't a powerful class.

It is a powerful class.

It is just often talked up as being more powerful than it actually is.

(My example was seeing it mentioned as if it were an instant-win button at ECL 10 (not Class level 10). I would argue that an ECL 9 Cleric is more powerful than most ECL 10 Ur-Priests. Spells are just that good.)

[Starbuck_II]

Right.

I'm not saying it isn't a powerful class.

It is a powerful class.

It is just often talked up as being more powerful than it actually is.

(I would argue that an ECL 9 Cleric is more powerful than most ECL 10 Ur-Priests. Spells are just that good.)

True, but compare ECL 11 Cleric (6th level)) with ECL 12 Ur Priest (7th level).