All D&D 3.5 class tiers

[Sinfire Titan]

Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

And an unoptimized wizard is basicaly a commoner. d4 HD, low BAB and firing his crossbow because all the spells he prepared are useless.

The HD version is when you target a creature with class levels. The CR version is the one you use on anything without class levels.

[Gnaeus]

Actualy, all the truenamer cares are the HD of the target he's trying to affect, so a greater stone golem is actualy an easy target. And then he can always buff the party and himself.

The beguiller on the other hand can pretty much just cry when facing enemies immune to illusions and mind control (like golems), yet a lot of people love the class.

Have you even read the 3.5 rulebooks? Sometimes I think someone cut your books into tiny pieces and you are trying to tape them back together in a way that sort of makes sense.

Golems are not immune to illusions. Only to effects that allow SR. Many useful illusions do not.

Beguilers have a number of useful buff spells on their list.

It is a trivial matter for beguilers to add to their lists with feats or PRCs. They can easily get spells that can harm or bypass a golem. I would go so far as to say that ANY moderately optimized beguiler is either aiming for a spell list expanding PRC or at the very least exploiting Arcane Disciple.

Unlike monks, Beguilers have UMD as a class skill, coupled with the skill points to keep it maxed without giving up anything important. It is entirely probable that at the point at which they are facing golems, they have the tools that they need to face golems. Let me repeat that. Monks are a MAD class with few skill points and no UMD in class. Beguilers are a SAD class which can easily afford a decent cha with many skill points and UMD in class.

[Frosty]

What do Monks have anything to do with this thread?

[Gnaeus]

Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

[Frosty]

I guess a monk can use UMD...if he really wants to spend a lot of wealth on consumables. Since it's cross class he'll probably fail a lot of the time until higher levels.

[Draz74]

Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

Oslecamo is a respected competitor in Test of Spite duels. I think you're thinking of someone else.

Also, note that the maligned Truenamer has Use Magic Device as well. (That should at least be more than enough to outdo Chicken Infested in a comparison between Truenamer and Commoner!)

[Tinydwarfman]

Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses. I find it silly that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to classes that are actually good at UMD, like beguilers.

Um, what? I think you are thinking of another poster. Whose name begins with G, and ends with iacomo.

[JaronK]

While I agree, I think you can assume that a Truenamer at 20 will at least have a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and a +30 competence item to Truespeak (since they're just that obvious).

I've never had access to a +30 skill item in any game. That's why I mention optimization level... some games don't give you access to +30 custom items (or any custom items at all, in fact). Access to custom items that are perfect for your class is what I'd call higher optimization. It's equivalent to assuming a Monk could have an item of persistant wraithstrike or something.

So yes, with +30 competance bonus items and Item Familiars a Truenamer could spam their abilities (which later in the game get quite good). Without that sort of thing, they do nothing. Hard to rank that way.

Beguilers have no trouble with Golems. Golems can't see through illusions that are indirect, and they're too stupid to respond to them.

And I ignore anything that's a Class X fallacy when ranking the tiers, so I ignore Monks using UMD.

JaronK

[KingVic]

what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

[JaronK]

what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

Tome of Magic: Binder is T3. I never ranked Shadowcaster, but it's probably in T4 (I don't have enough experience to rank it). Note that there's an online fix created by the writer of the class that you should look at. Truenamers are unranked for reasons given here already.

I'm not familiar enough with Incarnum to rank them, but they seem to be in the T3 area from what little experience I have.

JaronK

[Draz74]

what tier are the classes in Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum?

Binder is 3 (or 2 with some online Vestiges added in).

Shadowcaster is difficult to classify, because it's got powerful tricks like a Sorcerer, but runs out of them very quickly each day. Overall I'd say Tier 4.

Truenamer is typically considered unclassifiable. I'd give it a 5 overall (if not heavily optimized).

Totemist is 3.

Incarnate is probably 4. There are always a few people claiming it should be promoted to 3, but they're suspiciously also the people who are best at using Incarnum, so they're probably unconsciously optimizing it enough to move it up a tier.

Soulborn is a 5.

[Jacob Orlove]

Beguilers have no trouble with Golems. Golems can't see through illusions that are indirect, and they're too stupid to respond to them.

That's actually understating things:

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions.

As mindless creatures, Golems have no memory. If you put up an illusory wall, they won't remember that there was a corridor there before. If you turn invisible, they won't remember that you were there a moment ago. It's often trivial to bypass a Golem, even if you couldn't take them out in combat. Sometimes Spider Climb is enough!

[Frosty]

And I ignore anything that's a Class X fallacy when ranking the tiers, so I ignore Monks using UMD.

JaronK

What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

[Sinfire Titan]

What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

He likely means using abilities that are not class features, ACFs, or Racial Sub levels to say the class is good. Anyone and everyone can abuse UMD if they invest enough in it, but that doesn't mean the class used is actually a good class.

Having UMD as a class skill is considered when determining Tier placement, as those classes don't need to invest as heavily as others do. Still, it accounts only for a minor part, as you are using a system that isn't a natural class feature.

[magic9mushroom]

Except that CR is based on the total encounter, and high level encounters often have multiple enemies whose total CR is above the party's level. When you need to meet the DC of a CR 24 encounter while targeting a Greater Stone Golem, you can tell your main class feature is borked.

No. Truenaming works off the CR of the creature, which is distinct from the encounter's Encounter Level.

Truenamer is typically considered unclassifiable. I'd give it a 5 overall (if not heavily optimized).

Eh, they get UMD, which is powerful enough to make them Tier 4 even without ability to Truename properly.

[Draz74]

Eh, they get UMD, which is powerful enough to make them Tier 4 even without ability to Truename properly.

By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

[magic9mushroom]

By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

Truenamers get a couple of free feats and similar useful stuff. They're also a PC class with all that entails.

[Sinfire Titan]

By that logic, Expert should be Tier 4 instead of 5 too.

Just sayin'.

The lack of class features takes it down a Tier.

[The Shadowmind]

What do you think is needed to bump warlock's up from tier 4 to tier 3?
A high number of invocation know might help, maybe having eldritch blast damage increase 1d6 per every two levels for the full progression, instead of slowing to 1d6 per every three levels at level 12. Prehaps a way to add charisma modifier to the damage roll of eldritch blasts, and maybe an item creation feat or two as bonus feats, making the Imbue item class feature a bit better?

[Sinfire Titan]

What do you think is needed to bump warlock's up from tier 4 to tier 3?
A high number of invocation know might help, maybe having eldritch blast damage increase 1d6 per every two levels for the full progression, instead of slowing to 1d6 per every three levels at level 12. Prehaps a way to add charisma modifier to the damage roll of eldritch blasts, and maybe an item creation feat or two as bonus feats, making the Imbue item class feature a bit better?

Double Invocations known, increase EB damage to 15d6 (so only 5 dead levels), add in the ability to make extra EB shots/round.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oslecamo in general seems to believe that monks can use UMD to bypass their many weaknesses.

Oslecamo is a respected competitor in Test of Spite duels. I think you're thinking of someone else.

The heck? First and foremost, Comrade Camo isn't the person who mingles Monks with UMD without going Sacred Fist of Wee Jas. I think someone else mentioned the person.

Second, as far as I reckon Camo isn't a Test of Spite competitor. I believe you're referring to Olo, who is the ToS resident cheat-hound (not because he's a cheater; quite the contrary, because he's the one we go look for when there's something that needs a ban. I recall he was the one that caused Aptitude weapons and Lightning Maces to be banned)

Camo, to be precise, is the Earth Federation officer that is defending us from the hordes of Neo Divine Crusaders, Shadow-Mirror operatives, Inspectors and Einsts. You may see his adventures over here.

As for usual tricks:
--Anything that grants 9th level spellcasting usually is of a pretty high tier. Warmage isn't a higher tier because it's specialty ability (blasting) is not considered very high in terms of spellcasting power, and Healer is not considered as well since it has very few actually useful spells. Beguiler is often considered not just because of UMD, but because it has illusion spells which work wonders. Just having the Shadow Evoc./Conj. spells makes it almost enough to get a tier up. Dread Necro has the ability to get some decent necromancy spells, rebuke undead (which can be used for Divine Feats) and slow immunities.

--Having UMD naturally allows a character to get one tier up. That's why Rogues are pretty high, actually.

--Usually, prepared spells >> spontaneous spellcasters. Prepared spellcasters are versatile (they can get the right spell at the right time) while spontaneous spellcasters are utility spellcasters (they can spam spells they desire, so they get those that can do more than one thing). In theory, had the warlock's invocations worked better than they usually do, they would get up a tier by having utility invocations at-will as well as UMD.

--Defenses and attacks comprise the rest of the tiers. Mettle + high Fort/Will usually works wonders. Evasion + high Reflex not so much, but its a much-wanted pseudo-immunity. The better defenses you get, the better tier you are. Same with attacks.

--The better you are at action economy, the higher tier you are. That's why the big 6 are right there. Of course, having a pretty high action economy and sub-par options don't get you very high, but when you have 30 set contingencies and still can do three rounds worth of actions, and you can decide how to end the battle in a single round, you realize how things work.

This is using mostly the Tier system guidelines. A character's real power is based on builds and not exactly what the class has; the Tier system serves as a guideline but not exactly as the end-all-be-all, since you can go for a full blaster Wizard and low (or no) optimization and not achieve what your tier is meant to do. Just...saying.

[JaronK]

What is a "Class X Fallacy?"

A class X fallacy is claiming that a class is powerful compared to other classes because of something that all other classes can do at least as well. For example, "Monks are more powerful because they can use UMD" is a class X fallacy, because the statement "X are more powerful because they can use UMD" is just as true for any class X. Monks, after all, have no special charisma synergy, don't have UMD as a class skill, and lack any special abilities related to UMD. However, "Factotums are more powerful because they can use UMD" would not be a class X fallacy. They do get UMD as a class skill, and they do get abilities to use UMD better, so they actually are good with UMD. While "Commoners are more powerful because they can use UMD" is just as true as "Monks are more powerful because they can use UMD" it's not as true as the same statement for Factotums.

Note that this fallacy only applies to comparative power levels between classes. "Monks are strong enough to survive because they could cross class UMD" would not be a Class X fallacy, whether you agree with the statement or not.

Warlocks could easily be T3 if their UMD abilities and item creation abilities were a bit better and obtained a bit earlier. More invocations known wouldn't hurt either.

JaronK

[The Shadowmind]

Warlocks could easily be T3 if their UMD abilities and item creation abilities were a bit better and obtained a bit earlier. More invocations known wouldn't hurt either.
JaronK

Hmmm,
Homebrew: T3/T2 warlock.
Hmmm, Imbue item at level 6, with Scribe scroll as a bonus feat, and the ability to use scrolls in light armor with no ASF.
Gets the next item creation feat in the normal creation feat chain as a bonus feat every 3 levels.
Gets 2 invocations at level 1, and gains 2 invocation each time he would of normally gained one.
Lesser invocation:Empowered Blast: Blast Essence Invocation: functions like the metamagic feat of the same name.
Greater Invocation:Maximize blast, Blast Essence Invocation:Function like the metmagic feat of the same name.
Dark Invocation:Quicken Blast:Blast Essence Invocation: This blast makes the invocation only take a swift action.
Dark Invocation:Twin Blast: Blast shape invocation: Function similar to the twin spell metamagic feat.

Needs a bit fleshing out, but I think I'll post a more full version in the homebrew section in a few days.

[Zaq]

So yes, with +30 competance bonus items and Item Familiars a Truenamer could spam their abilities (which later in the game get quite good). Without that sort of thing, they do nothing. Hard to rank that way.

The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.) There are a few gems, but they're clustered around levels 3 (no-save Slow, flight prevention) and 4 (free Empower, and Spell Rebirth, which is almost as open-worded as IHS) overall. The Truenamer is NOT holding back godlike levels of power which can be released by getting past the stupid Truespeak DCs. Utterances tend to be about on par with or weaker than Invocations. Usually weaker than.

[Oslecamo]

The heck? First and foremost, Comrade Camo isn't the person who mingles Monks with UMD without going Sacred Fist of Wee Jas. I think someone else mentioned the person.

Second, as far as I reckon Camo isn't a Test of Spite competitor. I believe you're referring to Olo, who is the ToS resident cheat-hound (not because he's a cheater; quite the contrary, because he's the one we go look for when there's something that needs a ban. I recall he was the one that caused Aptitude weapons and Lightning Maces to be banned)

Camo, to be precise, is the Earth Federation officer that is defending us from the hordes of Neo Divine Crusaders, Shadow-Mirror operatives, Inspectors and Einsts. You may see his adventures over here.

Thank you very much comrade Oskar. I'm indeed neither a ToS competitor or a suporter of UMD monk, altough I would say every class should try to squeeze some ranks in that skill.

As for the golems being immune to illusions, that's something that has been discussed for a lot of times in this forums. Since they can be disbelieved with will saves, one can extrapolate that they affect the mind, something golems are immune to. I've met several DMs who enforce this interpretation. Invisibility would work against the golem, but then the beguiller is still reduced to a suporter.

Plus, the truenamer gets the following besides utterances:
-Simple weapons and light armor proefeciency.
-4 skill points per level including UMD
-One good save.
-Medium BAB.
-d6 HD

So, even whitout utterances, the truenamer is still superior to the commoner, unlike many people claim here. Minimum tier 5 by your standards.

It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.

At higher optimization, yes, the wizard surpasses the truenamer, but well, very few classes can keep up with the wizard. At least exp-free gate is brutal. The healer still has to pay exp for his gate.

[JaronK]

The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.)

Actually Gate was the big one I was talking about. And yes, Gate for a Healer does make it powerful... at level 17. Thus, both the Healer and Truenamer get a lot stronger near the end, with the Truenamer not getting really strong until level 20 itself. They're ranked lower in the tiers because levels 16+ are the least played levels of all, so in most games that doesn't matter. There are a few classes like that that really spike up in the last few levels... the Healer, Truenamer, and Factotum are most noticeable.

But yeah, until they get those abilities, they have very little to work with. And since the vast majority of actually played Truenamers and Healers won't ever actually get those abilities, they're not judged on them.

I'm really not sure what an optimized Truenamer would be. From what I've seen of it, I doubt it's above T4. It might even be as low as T5, though I'm not sure on that.

JaronK

[JaronK]

As for the golems being immune to illusions, that's something that has been discussed for a lot of times in this forums. Since they can be disbelieved with will saves, one can extrapolate that they affect the mind, something golems are immune to. I've met several DMs who enforce this interpretation. Invisibility would work against the golem, but then the beguiller is still reduced to a suporter.

You don't even get to make a save if you don't interact with the illusion. Put an illusion of adamantium walls around a golem and it won't go anywhere unless it's been programmed to walk into walls (something worth considering).

Plus, the truenamer gets the following besides utterances:
-Simple weapons and light armor proefeciency.
-4 skill points per level including UMD
-One good save.
-Medium BAB.
-d6 HD

So, even whitout utterances, the truenamer is still superior to the commoner, unlike many people claim here. Minimum tier 5 by your standards.

Worse than a CW Samurai. T6. The only saving grace is UMD... which is of debatable use. I believe that UMD is heavily overrated on most classes. You see, UMD is only of value if you get items that you can use it on. In games with loot as per the DMG (note that the DMG encourages random loot with the occasional specific item thrown in to benefit one player, and access to shops when you can get to town where you can sell loot at half price to buy stuff you want at full price), the chances of actually getting something to UMD are tiny. Totally random loot will almost never get you a wand of Lesser Vigor or something... the chances are miniscule if the DM even bothers to randomize among non core wands. And if they're throwing you items you need? Then if you hadn't had UMD you would have gotten a different equally useful thing anyway, so that's a wash. The only reasonable chance of getting what you want to UMD is to buy it, and the only way that's actually going to be an advantage at all is if the UMD item is better than all the things you could have bought that wouldn't have required UMD. For example, sure you could have bought a Wand of Lesser Vigor. But would it have helped you just as much to buy the supplies to craft your own Shadowsilk Leather Armor? Perhaps you could have purchased a Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat as a mount instead... wouldn't that have been better? And if the wand really was stronger than anything else you could have had (such as a Wand of Animate Dead or something) are you sure the DM would allow you to have it? And are you sure you can even get to a town regularly? Many of the campaigns I've been in have had us stuck in a dungeon for two or three levels at a time. Getting out to resupply can be hard when the clock is ticking and you don't have a teleporter.

As a result, the chances of UMD actually being a really powerful option are often quite low.

Note that this does not apply at all to classes that can make their own magical gear to UMD, such as the Artificer, Factotum, or Warlock. They have the unique advantage of being able to make whatever they want, and cheap.

So I'm not sure an unoptimized Truenamer is above T6. He's clearly trumped by an Expert, he becomes extremely gear reliant because all he really has is UMD, and the CW Samurai at least has the ability to dominate encounters with Imperious Command. Plus, the Commoner could have endless chickens, which is actually pretty useful if you start getting creative (they'll trigger traps, provide food for an army, or provide minions for a Dread Necromancer with Corpse Crafter, Destructive Retribution, and a maniacal gleam in his eye).

It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.

That's rediculous. A Wizard could have whatever spells he wants. If he picks bad ones, he says "wow, those spells sucked, I want new ones" and next level he's got something much better. If your truenamer can buy stuff to UMD, then the Wizard can buy a few scrolls of something nice too... and permanently have those spells. Sure, your Truenamer can buy a Wand of Alter Self if he really wants and the campaign makes that possible, but if so the Wizard can get a scroll of Alter Self for a much cheaper price and cast it all day long. There's no reasonable way the Truenamer is going to make great use of UMD while a similar Wizard makes terrible use of scrolls... that's not equivalent optimization at all. If the Wizard is always buying scrolls of stupid spells, then we can assume the Truenamer is buying idiotic wands too (fear my UMD'd wand of Disguise Elf!).

JaronK

[magic9mushroom]

The bolded part is a common myth, but is just that: a myth. High level Utterances really tend to suck, especially compared to what other classes (of varying power levels: casters, binders, martial adepts, meldshapers, etc.) get at the same level. (No, Gate at 20th level does not make one god damn bit of difference. The Healer gets Gate at 17th level, but that doesn't make it powerful.) There are a few gems, but they're clustered around levels 3 (no-save Slow, flight prevention) and 4 (free Empower, and Spell Rebirth, which is almost as open-worded as IHS) overall. The Truenamer is NOT holding back godlike levels of power which can be released by getting past the stupid Truespeak DCs. Utterances tend to be about on par with or weaker than Invocations. Usually weaker than.

Inertia Surge is awesome vs. Tome of Battle characters, I'll note, and is stupidly powerful if you read it by RAW (no-save paralysis). The various Words of Nurturing can be very nasty against things with defenses up, as well, because they ignore everything except Regeneration. Rebuild Item can be useful in situations involving Rust Monsters or Adamantine Horrors. Seize Item has obvious utility.

But yes, they're not all that awesome.

[Oslecamo]

You don't even get to make a save if you don't interact with the illusion. Put an illusion of adamantium walls around a golem and it won't go anywhere unless it's been programmed to walk into walls (something worth considering).

It depends on what you consider interacting. Several DMs I met consider that just looking at the illusion counts as interacting. Ohers say that noticing that the walls don't block sound or that wind keeps flowing trough them counts as interacting.

Getting out to resupply can be hard when the clock is ticking and you don't have a teleporter.

Well, that makes the wizard as well drop one tier, as a wizard who doesn't have time to sit down and copy new spells/craft stuff isn't better than a sorceror.

As a result, the chances of UMD actually being a really powerful option are often quite low.

Funny then on how optimizers are always telling people to walk around with several wands and scrolls as backup. Even if you're a fullcaster.

Note that this does not apply at all to classes that can make their own magical gear to UMD, such as the Artificer, Factotum, or Warlock. They have the unique advantage of being able to make whatever they want, and cheap.

Only if you have the free time to craft stuff. Unless you're an artificer and you have that cheesy builder homunculus, but that's pretty broken as hell.

So I'm not sure an unoptimized Truenamer is above T6. He's clearly trumped by an Expert, he becomes extremely gear reliant because all he really has is UMD, and the CW Samurai at least has the ability to dominate encounters with Imperious Command.

Imperious command demands optimization. An half optimized truenamer can at least buff himself and be a respectable gish.

Plus, the Commoner could have endless chickens, which is actually pretty useful if you start getting creative (they'll trigger traps, provide food for an army, or provide minions for a Dread Necromancer with Corpse Crafter, Destructive Retribution, and a maniacal gleam in his eye).

I don't think April's fool material is really valid. Plus it's an auto-win for the commoner as he can crush all and any enemy under a rain of chickens with quick draw.

That's rediculous. A Wizard could have whatever spells he wants. If he picks bad ones, he says "wow, those spells sucked, I want new ones" and next level he's got something much better.

If he failed to pick good spells this level, what makes you think he'll pick better ones next level? Plus he's still stuck one level shooting crossbows with bad Bab.

If your truenamer can buy stuff to UMD, then the Wizard can buy a few scrolls of something nice too... and permanently have those spells. Sure, your Truenamer can buy a Wand of Alter Self if he really wants and the campaign makes that possible, but if so the Wizard can get a scroll of Alter Self for a much cheaper price and cast it all day long. There's no reasonable way the Truenamer is going to make great use of UMD while a similar Wizard makes terrible use of scrolls... that's not equivalent optimization at all. If the Wizard is always buying scrolls of stupid spells, then we can assume the Truenamer is buying idiotic wands too (fear my UMD'd wand of Disguise Elf!).

Fair enough, but in that case the truenamer at least still has armor, more HP, +1 skill point and better Bab than the wizard.

[JoshuaZ]

It also means that unoptimized truenamer is stronger than unoptimized wizard. A wizard who screws over his spells has just d4 HD, less proefeciencies, no armor, 2 skill points/level(and no UMD, altough he can use wizard scrolls and wands whitout trouble) and weak Bab.

That's assuming a degree of non-optimization for the wizard that is extreme. Something like filling all your spell slots with prestidigitation, detect magic, sending and heightened touches of fatigue. A non-optimized wizard who isn't actively trying to screw themselves over will look like a blaster mage with maybe a handful of save-or-dies. Sure, that's not great. But a blaster wizard is still stronger than a truenamer.