Common Illusion Mistake

[Lysander]

A common error I see brought up with visual illusions is that they only allow a will save if you interact with them. People assume this means that unless you touch an illusion you automatically believe its real.

Giant pink elephant ballerina in a tutu? Unless they touch it the enemy has to believe its real, so the theory goes.

But the srd actually says this about illusions:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

The more you know. So a preposterous enough illusion should itself be proof its an illusion.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Then again, given what mages can do, I don't think there's much that qualifies. Maybe the elephant ballerina, but really, maybe not.

[onthetown]

It's hard to define what's preposterous and what's not with a fantasy game. I would also say that a giant elephant in a pink tutu is unrealistic; but, given some of the monsters lying around, that might actually be believeable.

[Superglucose]

Yeah but some of the most common uses of illusions are "Wow! Where did this wall come from?" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to happen, and besides this rule nerfs illusion vs casters but not melee so it is probably best to disregard it ("Hmmmm... I wonder where that wall came from after he cast a Silent Image spell?")

[Gametime]

The more you know. So a preposterous enough illusion should itself be proof its an illusion.

Technically, knowing that something is highly improbable is not "proof" that it is not real. Proof is a very specific concept, and in a world as crazy as D&D there is no substantial evidence that elephants in tutus couldn't be summoned from the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Dance.

(That said, yes, a suspicious enough illusion should generally warrant a saving throw upon viewing.)

[Lysander]

Summoning a wall or monster isn't preposterous since there are many spells that summon walls and monsters, so something like that would not automatically fail. But you have to assume that an enemy will examine a creature or object you magically created in front of them, which gives them a will save under the "study it carefully" rule. That's why you're better off casting illusions when an enemy can't see it appear from nowhere.

[Eldan]

The elephant in a tutu isn't really out there after the winged gay pride wolf, or the tree stump with a bunny glued to it.

[Starbuck_II]

So what have we learned?
We learned Fighting a Truenamer, CW Samurai, or Soulknife needs no will save. They are too preposterous to be true.

[mr.fizzypop]

The elephant in a tutu isn't really out there after the winged gay pride wolf, or the tree stump with a bunny glued to it.

Or the infamous "Duck Bunny" and "Monkey Bees."

[Harperfan7]

Just seeing a silent image allows a will save to disbelieve it.

Thats why you have spells like illusory wall. Why would there be a higher level spell that does the same thing as silent image? Because an illusory wall looks completely real, you only get a save if you interact with it non visually (like touching it or throwing a rock at it).

[Starbuck_II]

Just seeing a silent image allows a will save to disbelieve it.

Thats why you have spells like illusory wall. Why would there be a higher level spell that does the same thing as silent image? Because an illusory wall looks completely real, you only get a save if you interact with it non visually (like touching it or throwing a rock at it).

However, if they fail save, it funny that they lean on thin air (thinking wall is there) and don't fall through.

[Draxar]

Spoiler

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Doesn't have a tutu, but the smaller form is a small or tiny shiny gold elephant with dragonfly/faerie wings

[Harperfan7]

However, if they fail save, it funny that they lean on thin air (thinking wall is there) and don't fall through.

I love how the books fail to mention things like this.

[Tinydwarfman]

So what happens if you create illusionary chains around a flying creatures wings? If the creature fails it's save will it plummet to the ground, thinking it cannot flap it's wings?

[PersonMan]

So what happens if you create illusionary chains around a flying creatures wings? If the creature fails it's save will it plummet to the ground, thinking it cannot flap it's wings?

Probably. If you absolutely believe something, you'll probably block yourself from doing something impossible.

Like if we could suddenly grow extra eyes but thought it 100% impossible, we might only find ignorant/very young people capable of doing so-since we block the ability.

[Godskook]

So what happens if you create illusionary chains around a flying creatures wings? If the creature fails it's save will it plummet to the ground, thinking it cannot flap it's wings?

It'll fly just fine. Typically, the first reaction to being constrained is to resist, and failed save or no, illusionary chains can't provide resistance, so you'd be presented with immediate proof that the chains don't inhibit your capability to fly. Its up to the DM/Players involved to determine if that means that 'proof' of the illusion has been supplied, but that's immaterial, since the intended effect has been wasted.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Illusions always make me think of the placebo affect, which makes me think of a discussion I had with my friend discussing a bard who use illusion spells and monster bluff checks to make his opponents think he cast spells like Finger of Death.

[Starbuck_II]

So what happens if you create illusionary chains around a flying creatures wings? If the creature fails it's save will it plummet to the ground, thinking it cannot flap it's wings?

I'd say:
It would fall the 2st round if it failed save, but as soon as it struggles against the chains (2nd round minimum): it would fly (since they don't really chain impede).

[Tinydwarfman]

Hmm, so what about using silent image to create pitch blackness? What if you put it around a creature's head? The text says you can move the image, so the creature would be blinded on a failed will save, and you could do it 4+level creatures.

[Starbuck_II]

Hmm, so what about using silent image to create pitch blackness? What if you put it around a creature's head? The text says you can move the image, so the creature would be blinded on a failed will save, and you could do it 4+level creatures.

Nope. You can't block vision with it in that way. You can't make darkness (not even Core magicf does that). You could make a haze (make seeing difficult), but making lighted area dark is making something something else.

Spoiler

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A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

[Frosty]

Umm no. A wall created by Silent/Minor/Major image will NOT ever support/block someone, regardless of the Will Save's failure or non-failure. There is no material there.

What you're describing is Shadow Conjuration.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, it won't block them if they try to walk through it.
But if they fail save they will think there is a wall there and not fall through because they aren't leaning hard against it.

[rockdeworld]

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

I imagine it depends on a specific DM, but essentially an image spell can do whatever you can imagine. To me, that sounds broken.

Does that mean the following Silent Image illusions work?
1. Duplicating the dancing lights, darkness, light, greater versions of the previous two, pyrotechnics, mirror image, blur, displacement, invisibility, fog cloud, veil, or maze (at least creating a maze) spells.
2. A brilliant flash of light, duplicating the blinding effect of sunburst, or similarly prismatic wall.
3. A floor over a pit trap.
4. An ally flanking your enemy (giving yourself or an ally flanking).
5. A great wyrm red dragon, causing your enemies to make a will save against its frightful presence.

[The Dark Fiddler]

But if they fail save they will think there is a wall there

Yes.

and not fall through because they aren't leaning hard against it.

No, not at all.

Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface...

and

...but physical objects can pass through it without difficulty

[Soonerdj]

I thought illusions worked like so...

1: Interact and make your save, Illusion disappears.

2: Interact and fail your save, you realize its fake but you still see it so it still blocks LoS and such.

[Yukitsu]

I've read that the quality is based on a craft art check, but that was for a very specific illusion casting tournement where the grandness is considered important. In general, you should assume that the image looks exactly as it should to reduce any frustration that you may find if you rule otherwise if a party member uses illusions.

That's appearance only. When the effect is only appearance in effect like fog or light, then an illusion should mimic it. When it's a status effect, like stunned or dazed or blinded, I would argue it should not, though it may similarly get in the way of the effected creatures perceptions.

[Yuki Akuma]

I imagine it depends on a specific DM, but essentially an image spell can do whatever you can imagine. To me, that sounds broken.

Does that mean the following Silent Image illusions work?
1. Duplicating the dancing lights, darkness, light, greater versions of the previous two, pyrotechnics, mirror image, blur, displacement, invisibility, fog cloud, veil, or maze (at least creating a maze) spells.

You can duplicate how they look but they won't have any effect.

2. A brilliant flash of light, duplicating the blinding effect of sunburst, or similarly prismatic wall.

Yes, but it won't do anything. It's not real light so it can't do any actual damage.

3. A floor over a pit trap.

Sure, why not? It only has a duration of Concentration. Illusory Wall is the better choice for things like this, but Silent Image can do it.

4. An ally flanking your enemy (giving yourself or an ally flanking).

The enemy might think it's real for, say, a few seconds, before they realise it's not making any noise.

5. A great wyrm red dragon, causing your enemies to make a will save against its frightful presence.

Silent Images do not have the frightful presence ability. But you can certainly fool goblins into thinking you just summoned a dragon. Until they realise it's not making any noise.

[rockdeworld]

1.You can duplicate how they look but they won't have any effect.
2.Yes, but it won't do anything. It's not real light so it can't do any actual damage.
3.Sure, why not? It only has a duration of Concentration. Illusory Wall is the better choice for things like this, but Silent Image can do it.
4.The enemy might think it's real for, say, a few seconds, before they realise it's not making any noise.
5.Silent Images do not have the frightful presence ability. But you can certainly fool goblins into thinking you just summoned a dragon. Until they realise it's not making any noise.

1. Does that mean fog cloud works? I see what you mean about invisibility.

In response to the noise, does that mean you think it works for major image?

Edit: Also, it could be a dragon flying overhead. Nothing says you should be able to hear them.

[Lysander]

1. Just dancing lights (except they would cast no light) and fog cloud since those are visual effects. You could make a maze but it would be really small (4 10ft cubes + 1 cube/level isn't that much) plus they'd get a will save when they touch a wall. Veil/blur/invisiblity requires changing the appearance of a real object which the spell can't do. You could make something in front of you to hide behind, or replicate a crappier version of mirror image, but that's it.

2. You could make the illusion of those, but since the light isn't real it can't blind anyone.

3. Yes.

4. Yes, you could get a flanking bonus. But an illusion in melee combat is bound to be proved false pretty quick.

5. It wouldn't force them to make a will save since your dragon isn't as good as the real thing. But a person might still CHOOSE to flee if they believe there's a dragon.

[HunterOfJello]

Giant pink elephant ballerina in a tutu? Unless they touch it the enemy has to believe its real, so the theory goes.

uhh....... guys? Someone go touch that elephant and see if it's real.