Keychain of Creation 3: Not-a-Keyblade Understanding & Falafel-is-Awesome Prana Combo

[Tackyhillbillu]

Uh oh. I have my guesses on what Marena will have to give up. Secret... I have no idea.

[horngeek]

Marena: her resentment for her mother.

Secret: ...insecurities?

[Jerthanis]

Secret: ...insecurities?

That was basically what Brigid gave up... in order to learn Sorcery she had to suck it up and admit she didn't suck as much as she kept insisting she did.

[lord_khaine]

And put forward the guess that Secret gives up Cluivnarihe as her 'Sacrifice'.

Its really not hears to give away, it belongs to The King of Uncloaked steel.

[Aquillion]

...
I don't know?
If you're not sleeping, you're not hibernating, so you can't use the charm. The need for sleep is irrelevant.

On immortality - I seem to recall hearing of someone "hacking" their shard of Exaltation so that it carried their memories and personality with it, overwriting the next Exalt (like what appears to have happened to Misho). Is that canon, or fan speculation, or a toast-induced dream?

It's canon. See the Scroll of Exalts for Dominica's Mantle (Artifact N/A). The rules for it make it clear that yes, you are the same person, at least in the ways that count (it provides rules for a PC using it, and they are not "ha ha you're dead, all you've done is create an NPC with your memories.")

Note, of course, that the mantle doesn't automatically appear with you when your shard reincarnates -- you have to recover it (and until you do, if you're killed, you'll stay dead.) So the immortality it grants has a clear loophole.

Misho, however, also looks like he did in the first age, making something like Dominica's Mantle unlikely.

[The_Snark]

That was basically what Brigid gave up... in order to learn Sorcery she had to suck it up and admit she didn't suck as much as she kept insisting she did.

I have to say, I really don't like that part of the story. A sacrifice should be something that you don't want to give up; if it wasn't valuable to you, it wasn't really a sacrifice.

Marena's resentment for her mother strikes me as a good example: while her dislike of her mother is probably not good for her as a person, she clings to it very tightly. She feels vulnerable trusting her mother, is afraid of being exploited, and doesn't want to admit that she might have been wrong. Even if she admits that it's bad for her (and this is not certain), it would be very hard to just let go of all that.

But insecurity? That's something something neither Brigid nor Secret valued about themselves—they're both working to improve their self-esteem already. It might be hard to accomplish, but there is no real doubt in their minds that they should do it. It's like trying to give up your ability to feel fear, or the crippling disease you've had ever since you were a child. That's not sacrifice, it's self-improvement.

I guess you could explain why this worked for Brigid by saying that her timidity was basically her entire self-image, or that her willingness to give up anything was genuine enough that it counted, or that it's presented as an in-universe legend and isn't necessarily correct; Brigid's real sacrifice might not have been recorded. But I don't like it much.

Anyway. I don't have any real idea what Secret's sacrifice might be, but I'm looking forward to seeing it. This part of the game has always interested me, but I've never really gotten the chance to play out a sorcerer.

[horngeek]

And Secret's thinking she sucks isn't her entire self-image?

Yes, it's improving. But for an Exalted, her self-image does seem to be... very negative.

[Weimann]

Oh my God, he's actually teaching them? I still don't believe both of them will actually learn.

I agree, sacrificing insecurities seems like it wouldn't be valid. In fact, I'm not fond of Marena sacrificing her mother issues either. It's just way to positive.

She could sacrifice her boobs or something.

[The_Snark]

Sacrifices don't have to be wholly negative. Look at Ayesha Ura: her sacrifice was to stop resisting the dreams she'd been having of her past incarnation. She was afraid of this because she was afraid it would put her at odds with her then-lover Chejop Kejak—and she was right, too. Her sacrifice upon initiating into Celestial Circle sorcery was to sever the relationship and oppose him.

Did these things shape who Ayesha Ura is today? Definitely. Did they change her for the better? That's debatable, depending on how you feel about Sidereal factional politics, but she isn't troubled by conflicting loyalties much anymore. I'd say that yes, it did help her grow as a person.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't an incredibly hard choice at the time. Marena's resentment for her mother is like that: it might be good in the long run, but it would be very hard for her to willingly give up. It'd also be nicely paradoxical, since she's learning sorcery to show up her mother...

Contrast that with Secret and Brigid, who are both going to considerable lengths already to make themselves more capable and confident.

And Secret's thinking she sucks isn't her entire self-image?

Yes, it's improving. But for an Exalted, her self-image does seem to be... very negative.

Arguably. But as I said, I don't like that explanation much for Brigid either. (I prefer the one where the legend is inaccurate, and Brigid never revealed what she really gave up.)

'Course, just because I don't like the idea doesn't mean that it won't happen in the comic. And I think Jukashi has a good enough handle on his characters that he could make it work, even for me. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[ZeroNumerous]

But insecurity? That's something something neither Brigid nor Secret valued about themselves—they're both working to improve their self-esteem already. It might be hard to accomplish, but there is no real doubt in their minds that they should do it. It's like trying to give up your ability to feel fear, or the crippling disease you've had ever since you were a child. That's not sacrifice, it's self-improvement.

Do you recall why Brigid learned Sorcery to begin with? Because she felt horribly useless. She gave up her driving desire for bettering herself. That's a fairly huge loss.

[horngeek]

Do you recall why Brigid learned Sorcery to begin with? Because she felt horribly useless. She gave up her driving desire for bettering herself. That's a fairly huge loss.

This. Basically, this.

[The_Snark]

Do you recall why Brigid learned Sorcery to begin with? Because she felt horribly useless. She gave up her driving desire for bettering herself. That's a fairly huge loss.

Er. She achieved her desire. If she'd given it up, there would have been, you know, giving up involved at some point in the story. I think that might have worked, actually: Brigid can't find what she is looking for and gives up, resigning herself to the idea that she'll have to live without Charms and accept who she is... and then she is enlightened with the secrets of sorcery.

But that's not the story. She didn't lose her desire to better herself in the slightest; she got what she wanted, and spent the rest of her life developing powerful new magics. There are ways to make the story work, but that one doesn't do it for me at all.

[Indon]

In the First Age, most reasonably experienced Exalted knew at least Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, according to the Dreams of the First Age (and some other books, I think).

I mean, while he would be more used to the 'a lot rarer', he'd still have the First Age mindset.

Well, we've every reason to believe that Thrice-Radiant was a Solar Circle master - so he's done the big version of the trials, in particular Sacrifice. He's old enough to have partaken in creating the Working itself! He's probably one of the people who originally advocated it.

I wonder which of the Schools he follows - if, indeed, he follows any of them.

Okay, now the rest of the game is about finding a way to restore the fundamental laws of thermodynamics after you successfully destroy them... because the consequences of destroying Thermodynamics would be terrifying.

Exalted players: Providing their own plot hooks since whenever they figured out it was possible to break the universe.

And I'm pretty sure Misho's thing is due to the Blade of Vitality.

Arguably. But as I said, I don't like that explanation much for Brigid either. (I prefer the one where the legend is inaccurate, and Brigid never revealed what she really gave up.)

Brigid learned sorcery before you had to sacrifice anything to learn it - she didn't need to give up anything to learn sorcery. She just sacrificed something along the way in her own personal journey, related it in a story to others, and her students eventually wove that into the fabric of reality as one of the requirements to learn sorcery.

Only after Brigid learned sorcery was the Working created to force new would-be Sorcerors to emulate Brigid's story - which, since she did it alone, doesn't even have to be what really happened. She might have just figured it out one day and embellished the rest, or any sort of thing.

[Xelloss]

Misho, however, also looks like he did in the first age, making something like Dominica's Mantle unlikely.

Different skin, hair and eyes colour. Hair-do and glasses can be explained by trying to look like his previous incarnation more than an actual similitude.

And I'm pretty sure Misho's thing is due to the Blade of Vitality.

That's my opinion too. I asked because official confirmation is often a plus.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I'm with Weimann. Marena's distrust for her mother is just a little bit to easy of a choice.

My guess is that is has to do with that other member of her family that is travelling with them, Karen.

---

Secret, I really don't know what she has to give up that fits the bill, frankly.

[Gez]

My guess is that is has to do with that other member of her family that is travelling with them, Karen.

She still has a daughter and a son to find.

[Kyeudo]

Brigid learned sorcery before you had to sacrifice anything to learn it - she didn't need to give up anything to learn sorcery. She just sacrificed something along the way in her own personal journey, related it in a story to others, and her students eventually wove that into the fabric of reality as one of the requirements to learn sorcery.

Only after Brigid learned sorcery was the Working created to force new would-be Sorcerors to emulate Brigid's story - which, since she did it alone, doesn't even have to be what really happened. She might have just figured it out one day and embellished the rest, or any sort of thing.

That is NOT what the Salinian Working does. The Salinian Working prevents sorcerous knowledge from being lost from the world and allows anyone, anywhere to learn sorcery without need for a tutor.

Brigid's sacrifice was her insecurities. The thing with the sacrifice is that is doesn't need to be something you like, it has to be something that is hard to give up. For some, this is their family, their favorite pet, or their right arm. But think about your insecurities. We tend to cling to them. "I'm just not good enough" is a really, really convienient excuse when we fail. "No one likes me" makes a great shield against the pain of rejection. Without our insecurities, we have to take personal responsibility for every action and therefore every fault and failure. For all that we dislike our insecurities, we cling to them like a favorite teddy bear, afraid to step out into the sun and possibly get burned.

[Jukashi]

I should remind people that the sacrifice for Terrestrial Sorcery, the First Circle, is comparatively small. Lopping off a finger is enough, if I recall correctly.

However, I also seem to recall a hint in the books that "cheatery" sacrifices are "bad luck" or something, and the more you sacrifice the better a sorcerer you'll be. But it's not backed up by the mechanics in any way.

[spectralphoenix]

My guess is that Secret will give up Cluivnarihe as her sacrifice. Not only is it something she values, but it also gets in the way of her personal potential and her reliance on it weakens her (I'm thinking of this comic in particular.) And, lucky for her, she's just been learning Martial Arts.

Marena will probably have to give up on finding her son or her daughter (giving up her grudge against her mother is possible, I suppose, but that doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice.) Probably her son, since she can't really do much about the Sidereals but worrying about it might jeopardize the mission. I could maybe see Marena sacrificing her mother issues if it took the form of agreeing to take over Janara. Weimann's idea of her giving up her breasts is amusing, but I don't think Secret would make a real, character-developing sacrifice while Marena makes a joke sacrifice (and I suspect there are many more boob jokes to come.)

Though if Marena needs to give up on one of her family members, I think there's a good chance she won't go through with it. Nothing says you can't decide you want your sacrifice more than sorcery.

[Tavar]

Oh my God, he's actually teaching them? I still don't believe both of them will actually learn.

I think he's doing mainly because, well, they're Exalts. If they put their minds to it, then they'll learn sorcery. At least this way they'll have some guidance.

Also, where's this information on Sorcery found? I've always found the subject interesting, but it's only briefly shown in the core book.

[Sanguine]

I think he's doing mainly because, well, they're Exalts. If they put their minds to it, then they'll learn sorcery. At least this way they'll have some guidance.

Also, where's this information on Sorcery found? I've always found the subject interesting, but it's only briefly shown in the core book.

The White Treatise gives a lot of information on Sorcery as well as a boat load of new spells. You also get a copy of the Black Treatise free with each purchase.

[spectralphoenix]

I think he's doing mainly because, well, they're Exalts. If they put their minds to it, then they'll learn sorcery. At least this way they'll have some guidance.

Also, where's this information on Sorcery found? I've always found the subject interesting, but it's only briefly shown in the core book.

Books of Sorcery v2: The White and Black Treatises

Edit: Ninja!

[Xelloss]

I remember seeing somewhere the sacrifices made by Misho (in his First Age incarantion IIRC). Could someone give the link ?

[Weimann]

Weimann's idea of her giving up her breasts is amusing, but I don't think Secret would make a real, character-developing sacrifice while Marena makes a joke sacrifice (and I suspect there are many more boob jokes to come.)

Indeed, it was simply a jest. She won't lose her boobs.

Right?

RIGHT?!

[Jerthanis]

Indeed, it was simply a jest. She won't lose her boobs.

Right?

RIGHT?!

Pfft, anything more than a handful's a waste.

[Gez]

Weimann's idea of her giving up her breasts is amusing, but I don't think Secret would make a real, character-developing sacrifice while Marena makes a joke sacrifice (and I suspect there are many more boob jokes to come.)

I think if you asked a woman who had a mastectomy, she would probably tell you losing your boobs is not a joke sacrifice.

That said, I don't really how it would make sense for Marena to choose that to sacrifice. She is quite proud of her sexiness, but still it would be a rather shallow choice, compared to letting go of her lost children -- or of her freedom if she accepts to succeed her mother.

[Xelloss]

Should I remind everyone they're trying to learn Terrestrial Sorcery, not Solar Sorcery. The first sacrifice is way smaller than the third.

[The_Snark]

This is true. It's not supposed to be insignificant, but there has to be room to build on the sacrifice later.

[horngeek]

And despite the saying otherwise... Secret giving up her insecurities or Marena giving up her resentment at her mother would be pretty significant.

I'm of the opinion that the best sacrifice for thematic reasons is one related to why the person wanted to learn Sorcery in the first place.

[Weimann]

So Marena would sacrifice all her hoarded cheese?