Keychain of Creation 3: Not-a-Keyblade Understanding & Falafel-is-Awesome Prana Combo

[Tavar]

Possible? Yeah, it's possible. Though I think it'd be difficult, even for her. But if it falls under her domain, then yes, she might be able to do it.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Actually, I'd put most things that are wrong with Creation in the laps of the Incarnae, not the Exalted. If the UCS, Luna, the Maidens, and the rest of the gods weren't so busy getting their fix playing the Games of Divinity, alot of the problems could have been avoided.

Actually, that goes for pretty much all of the gods. If the Elemental Dragons would stop... doing whatever the hell they are doing, and tell the Dragonborn that the Solars aren't Anathema, or Lytek would stop keeping secrets, and tell some people about the Curse, things could actually get fixed.

The only things that let the Exalted do all of those things is that the Incarnae, (and the Elemental Dragons) stopped paying attention to their jobs.

I don't think there are many powerful gods left who actually do what they are supposed to. Five Days Darkness, Mistress Marthisene, a couple of others probably.

[Tavar]

Well, things supposedly did work for a while after the Primordials were overthrown. Then the usurpation happened, and with things went to Hell in a handbasket. I mean, that's when the whole system started to break, partially because, at least from what I understand, the Sid's actively stopped some powerful gods from doing their jobs, which sent a very bad message to the others. Plus, then the dragonblooded were put in charge. not sure exactly what the problem there was, but supposedly there was a problem. Not saying they're blameless, but for at least some of them, there's a reason the system's stopped working.

[MReav]

They were, really, but it's not exactly their fault. For all their power and intelligence, primordials are in some ways more limited than mortal humans. Acts such as killing oneself or one's offpsring are against a human being's nature, but it is possible for a sane human to do these things if given sufficient cause; primordials, though, seem completely incapable of going against their base natures.

I'm not arguing that point. I'm arguing that they traded one crappy universe for another, IOW the universe is crappy in entirely different ways then it was 30000 years ago.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Well, things supposedly did work for a while after the Primordials were overthrown. Then the usurpation happened, and with things went to Hell in a handbasket. I mean, that's when the whole system started to break, partially because, at least from what I understand, the Sid's actively stopped some powerful gods from doing their jobs, which sent a very bad message to the others. Plus, then the dragonblooded were put in charge. not sure exactly what the problem there was, but supposedly there was a problem. Not saying they're blameless, but for at least some of them, there's a reason the system's stopped working.

Things worked, in so far as you had an immensely powerful oligarchy, which was, at the very least, a victim of some very serious corruption, ruled over by 300 immensely powerful beings that were doomed to go insane.

The Usurpation would have been fairly easy to stop for the Maidens. If they had looked over, and told the Sidereals 'no' then it would have ended there.

As for the Dragonblooded being in charge... yeah, I've never been one to see the problem with that. The Shogunate wasn't that bad a time to live in. It wasn't quite as awesome as the First Age, but things weren't all that terrible. Of course, I end up rooting for the Dragonblooded, because they are the underdogs that came out on top.

[Jukashi]

I'm not arguing that point. I'm arguing that they traded one crappy universe for another.

Oh, I wasn't arguing. I just felt like saying it.

It sort of applies to the Incarna, as well. They, too, are limited by their natures. Part of the reason the US and Maidens are so enthralled by the GoD is because it lets them do things they can otherwise never do; that is, get beaten (for the Sun) and not know what's going to happen (for the Maidens).

Luna isn't so strongly affected by the games, which leaves only the fact that she is quite bonkers, suffering a severe case of multiple personalities caused by having eaten all the other potential moon gods before she was created.

That's sort of a thing in Exalted. Almost everything bad that happens can be wrangled so that no-one is really to blame. I suppose that's in more for game reasons, though, so players can justify their characters as heroes or villains as they choose.

[Tavar]

Things worked, in so far as you had an immensely powerful oligarchy, which was, at the very least, a victim of some very serious corruption, ruled over by 300 immensely powerful beings that were doomed to go insane.

As opposed to what? There's never been anything but oligarchy. The closest to a new system is the Red Dynasty, and even that had some serious problems. As for the insanity, well, that wasn't exactly part of the design, was it?

The Usurpation would have been fairly easy to stop for the Maidens. If they had looked over, and told the Sidereals 'no' then it would have ended there.

The problem is that there was no reason for the Maidens to give such an order. The Solars were out of control, and things were only going to get worse if someone didn't do something. The Unconquered Sun turned away from the Solars, suppressing his virtue, because he couldn't really do anything else. Yeah, the Usurption wasn't the best solution, but given their constraints(especially the Great Curse, from what I remember it hit the Incarnae as well as the exalts), it was the best solution they had.

As for the Dragonblooded being in charge... yeah, I've never been one to see the problem with that. The Shogunate wasn't that bad a time to live in. It wasn't quite as awesome as the First Age, but things weren't all that terrible. Of course, I end up rooting for the Dragonblooded, because they are the underdogs that came out on top.

Yeah, the Shogunate wasn't that bad for Humans. But they're not the ones who had a problem with the order of things, nor did they start screwing up the celestial bureaucracy. The Gods? Were.

[Aquillion]

Actually, pretty much everything bad in the setting is the Exalted's fault. Not only did they wake the Neverborn, but they could have just banished the pre-Yozis rather than cripple and imprison them. Negotiation, after just one or two deaths/yozi-ings could have had the primordials just leave to make a new world rather than kill so many of them. The gods did want to humiliate their former masters, but the Exalts could have stood up to them.

Yes and no. Neph was talking about this before.

The Usurptation made things worse for almost everyone, except for two groups: Gods (who, aside from the Incarnae and the Primordial loyalists, saw a small improvement in their position) and humans, whose improvement was huge. Even the life of the typical human in the Second Age is not as bad as it was before the Primordial war -- as bad as things are, the world still, basically, revolves around them in many ways. The Exalted are humans. Humans generally rule themselves and are, generally, not randomly killed by monsters (yes, we read about that, but that's because it's the rare and exciting parts.) They're free. They have mobility, to the extent that they can take it, and they can build and grow, to the extent that they're capable of it. These things were not true before.

So if you take the human perspective, the Primordial War was a good thing. From the perspective of, say, the Lintha or the Alrun or the Dragon-Kings or, eventually, the Mountain Folk, not so much.

But it's like, say, taking a nation in the real world and looking back however far you have to look to see who was displaced to make room for it -- you can regret how native group such-and-such was treated (unless it's so far in the past that nobody even remembers it...) You can sometimes wish that things were done differently. At the end of the day, though, that isn't going to make most people in the modern day change the way they live -- and it's not going to make them side with the natives if there's another war, regardless of the past.

[Jukashi]

The analogy trembles slightly if you recall that in this case, the natives that were originally killed are still buried under the floor, with their moans of agony occasionally carrying through from beyond the grave, and sometimes maybe a skeletal hand punches up through the flagstones to grab at people's feet. And the living natives that were displaced now live in a country next to you, where - since your country has been in decline for the last few decades - they are now at the very least equal to you in military strength and very good at remembering their grudge.

Oh. And there was a small side-effect from that war, back then. Four-fifths of the whole country fell into the sea.

[Tavar]

Did the Exalts have any reason to stand up for the Primordials? I mean, the only things that they really knew was that they were capricious, vengeful, and extremely powerful. Doesn't sound like someone you want to take second chances with.

[Justyn]

Did the Exalts have any reason to stand up for the Primordials? I mean, the only things that they really knew was that they were capricious, vengeful, and extremely powerful. Doesn't sound like someone you want to take second chances with.

Well, I believe that the Exalted actually existed for a while before the Primordial War. Mostly training and, in the case of the Dragon-blooded (and any other type of no-longer-existing Exalted that replace numbers in the same way) breeding. I would think that in the years or potentially centuries it took to prepare for the war, I would think that they would make sure that everyone was properly indoctrinated and on board, rather than just Exalting a bunch of random people and sicking them on the World-Creating Titans.

[Rockphed]

Well, I believe that the Exalted actually existed for a while before the Primordial War. Mostly training and, in the case of the Dragon-blooded (and any other type of no-longer-existing Exalted that replace numbers in the same way) breeding.

Wait, were there any other types of exalted like that, or are you just covering your bases?

[Justyn]

Wait, were there any other types of exalted like that, or are you just covering your bases?

Covering my bases.

[Tackyhillbillu]

As opposed to what? There's never been anything but oligarchy. The closest to a new system is the Red Dynasty, and even that had some serious problems. As for the insanity, well, that wasn't exactly part of the design, was it?

Well, the insanity part was more the point of that. And that was the point. The design wasn't an awful one, but it wasn't self sustaining. The Incarnae just walked from their responsibilities of sitting at the head, and the system broke down.

The problem is that there was no reason for the Maidens to give such an order. The Solars were out of control, and things were only going to get worse if someone didn't do something. The Unconquered Sun turned away from the Solars, suppressing his virtue, because he couldn't really do anything else. Yeah, the Usurption wasn't the best solution, but given their constraints(especially the Great Curse, from what I remember it hit the Incarnae as well as the exalts), it was the best solution they had.

I don't disagree that had the Maidens, Luna, and the UCS been paying attention, they would have agreed with the Siddies. However, if they had been paying attention, they could have done something about the problem. The Great Curse isn't completely impossible to deal with. The Infernals, at least, had it removed from them. The Incarnae should know how to do that as well, as they are at least as powerful as the Yozi. Barring that, they could have told the Solar's about it, who could have done something about it, even if was impossible. If the Solars can kill the Primordials, they can kill the Curse they put on them. With their fists. Doing impossible things is their schtick, after all.

Yeah, the Shogunate wasn't that bad for Humans. But they're not the ones who had a problem with the order of things, nor did they start screwing up the celestial bureaucracy. The Gods? Were.

That was more just a side point. I was agreeing with you that the Dragonblooded taking over Creation probably wasn't such a bad thing. Things didn't really start sucking until the pissed off Ghosts of the Solars decided to go and kill most of the Dragonblooded, along with most of the Mortal population. The Usurpation broke a lot of things, and pissed off a number of gods. The Siddies made it worse.

[Kyeudo]

The Incarnae should know how to do that as well, as they are at least as powerful as the Yozi.

Nitpick: We are talking two different types of power. The Unconquered Sun can beat the snot out of most of the Yozis all by himself if he were allowed. However, the Yozis made him.

The Unconquered Sun definately has enough brute force power to overcome the Curse, but he'd need to know about it. To know about it, he'd have to try and find out about it. To try and find out about it, you'd have to make him care about the Exalted again. To make him care, you'd need to talk to him. Good luck trying to get him to pay attention over the Games of Divinity.

It is confirmed that Jupiter definately knows about the Great Curse and probably knows how to fix it (because she knows everything). However, she'll never tell anyone, because that would go against her nature as the Maiden of Secrets.

Saturn could end the Curse, but she'd need to know about it and knowing isn't her purview. Venus, Mercury, and Mars probably can't deal with the Curse themselves even if they knew.

Luna is a wild card. She might fix the Curse the moment she found out, she might take a couple millenia.

[The Rose Dragon]

As for the Dragonblooded being in charge... yeah, I've never been one to see the problem with that. The Shogunate wasn't that bad a time to live in. It wasn't quite as awesome as the First Age, but things weren't all that terrible. Of course, I end up rooting for the Dragonblooded, because they are the underdogs that came out on top.

It is the nature of gods to refuse the rule of Dragon-blooded as the Princes of the Earth, as the Creation-Ruling Mandate was given to the Solars, and, by extension, the Celestial Exalted. Sidereals cannot rule Creation themselves, due to their heavenly duties and their lack of numbers, so they had to give the rule to somebody. However, since gods will refuse to agree to their rule, things have to be physically forced by the Dragon-blooded, whereas Celestial Exalted could simply negotiate with the spirits.

If a god did agree with the Usurpation, it is despite his nature as a god. And considering gods keep things running smoothly in Creation, their lack of cooperation with the Dragon-blooded is a big problem.

[Green Bean]

That's a really silly part of the setting, though, and I ignore it.

[The Rose Dragon]

It's not really silly. In the cosmic scheme of things, Terrestrials aren't really people - they are overglorified daiklaves. They were created to be tossed at demon armies at as large numbers as possible, and only after the Primordial War was their non-battle related uses even considered.

A mortal can, eventually and if fate will have it, gain Celestial Exaltation and become important, but a Terrestrial Exalt, by his nature, never will. The Scarlet Empress is the only exception, and she has many artifacts, manses and alliances that keep her power where it is.

Of course, from a mortal's point of view, even Terrestrials are great and terrible beings. But in the eyes of spirits, they are less than the lowliest of mortal where the Mandate of Heaven is concerned.

[Revlid]

I wonder what would happen if a Solar (or Solar Circle) ever got it into their head to break the Games of Divinity? Whether out of spite, disillusionment with Sol, or because they genuinely believe it's the Right Thing To Dotm?

[Tavar]

The security on the Games of Divinity stopped the First Age Solars at the height of their power. I don't think the new breed has a chance. Of course, they could talk to him when he wasn't on the Games, like in Calibration.

[Green Bean]

It's not really silly. In the cosmic scheme of things, Terrestrials aren't really people - they are overglorified daiklaves. They were created to be tossed at demon armies at as large numbers as possible, and only after the Primordial War was their non-battle related uses even considered.

A mortal can, eventually and if fate will have it, gain Celestial Exaltation and become important, but a Terrestrial Exalt, by his nature, never will. The Scarlet Empress is the only exception, and she has many artifacts, manses and alliances that keep her power where it is.

Of course, from a mortal's point of view, even Terrestrials are great and terrible beings. But in the eyes of spirits, they are less than the lowliest of mortal where the Mandate of Heaven is concerned.

Celestial Exalts aren't really people - they're overglorified daiklaves. They were designed to be tossed at Primordials in as large a number as possible, and only after the Primordial War were their non-battle related uses even considered.

I reject the setting element because a) it means spirits are somehow compelled to be rude to people that could kick their faces in, b) it takes the Dragonblooded social and bureaucratic abilities and says "gods don't like you, so screw you", and c) the idea of a 'right to rule' in the first place runs counter to the whole 'power grows out of the barrel of a gun' theme Creation has going.

The security on the Games of Divinity stopped the First Age Solars at the height of their power. I don't think the new breed has a chance. Of course, they could talk to him when he wasn't on the Games, like in Calibration.

Of course, the Solars didn't really have a reason to try to enter the Games, and it was forbidden by treaty. I doubt a determined First Age circle would have much trouble getting in if they really wanted to. Same with the Age of Sorrows.

[kamikasei]

Celestial Exalts aren't really people - they're overglorified daiklaves. They were designed to be tossed at Primordials in as large a number as possible...

...except of course that the number of Celestial Exalts has a hard limit, while Terrestrial Exalts can be fruitful and multiply.

[Green Bean]

...except of course that the number of Celestial Exalts has a hard limit, while Terrestrial Exalts can be fruitful and multiply.

If Autobot could have made 600 Lunars, don't you think he would have?

[Drascin]

If Autobot could have made 600 Lunars, don't you think he would have?

No, actually, he probably could and didn't. Not because the gods didn't want more Exalted, most likely - Autochthon had his own designs, which seemed to be plenty more extensive than the Celestials we know, and who the hell knows what those designs were. He was a Primordial, after all, even if he was the most reasonable of the lot - and Primordials are weird, man .

When you read Alchemicals it calls to attention a couple things... such as the fact that all Alchemical types are the prototypes for Creation's Exalted... and the prototype panoply includes a Soulsteel design and an Adamant design. But he never actually made Creation Exalted of those types. Maybe he got cold feet on seeing the sheer atrocity the Exalted inflicted on his brothers, maybe he left the seeds for later (Soulsteel Exalted now exist, in the form of Abyssals), or maybe he had wanted to do something else with the Exalted before they started going bonkers and he decided to vacate the premises before they got it in their heads to stab him in his sleep.

[Tackyhillbillu]

...except of course that the number of Celestial Exalts has a hard limit, while Terrestrial Exalts can be fruitful and multiply.

On the other hand, the Celestial Exalts can never run out, as long as you have mortals around, while the Dragonblooded could concievably go extinct.

[Kyeudo]

I reject the setting element because a) it means spirits are somehow compelled to be rude to people that could kick their faces in, b) it takes the Dragonblooded social and bureaucratic abilities and says "gods don't like you, so screw you", and c) the idea of a 'right to rule' in the first place runs counter to the whole 'power grows out of the barrel of a gun' theme Creation has going.

The problem is more complex than a simple compulsion. It's a whole chain reaction.

The Creation-Ruling Mandate means that any god in the Terrestrial Bureaucracy can be censured for not listening to a Solar and potentially lose his job. This is a problem for gods because gods without jobs can cease to exist for lack of worship (which usually comes through their jobs) and because prominent jobless gods are used by Sidereals as a source of starmetal. So, in the First Age, the gods did what the Solars said because not doing what the Solars said could result in you ceasing to exist. This, of course, is on top of the fact that a First Age Solar could just kill that god on a whim.

Then the Usurpation happened and the Solars disapeared. The Celestial Gods hated that the Sidereals had pulled off the biggest crime in history and had managed to dodge it by shattering the Mask and thus making all evidence of their crime vanish, so large numbers of them hold a major grudge. Gods can hold grudges for millenia and they carry out their grudges through various forms of bureaucratic mischief, like misplacing forms for a century or two.

This decreased efficiency in Heaven means that down in Creation the Terrestrial Gods can suddenly get away with proverbial and literal murder. A large portion of the Terrestrial Gods are physically more powerful than a Dragon-Blooded, Terrestrials are far less able to deal with spirits in any way, and the Gods don't get in any sort of official bureaucratic censure for telling a Dragon-Blood where he can shove it. Back in the First Age, this sort of behavior was dealt with by bringing the issue up with the Celestial Censors and they'd take care of the problem, but, surprise!, they aren't taking calls right now because they are busy working on their harem/wine collection/beauty rest/etc. and Terrestrial Exalted are too low on the totem pole to bother investigating for.

The Sidereals tried to get the Dragon-Blooded recognized as having gained the Creation-Ruling Mandate, but they were outnumbered by the Celestial Bureaucracy and shot down. So, they did the next best thing.

Since one of a god's biggest fears is that he might cease to exist, the Sidereals created Charms where-by a Dragon-Blooded could interact with spirits and the Five Immaculate Styles, making a trained Immaculate at least equal to a rogue god. Thus, the Terrestrials started enforcing their will on the spirit world with raw violence.

This, of course, means that the spirits resent such treatment and strike back in any way they think they can get away with and as soon as the Dragon-Blooded are gone they go right back to whatever they were doing before.

[Green Bean]

<snip>

That's an excellent way to run it, because it means that it's an institutional grudge, not the result of 'godly nature'. It does nothing to prevent Terrestrials from negotiating with gods, or even becoming friends on an individual basis. I just have an issue with gods universally despising Dragonblooded because the UCS never handed them some ephemeral 'right to rule'.

[Tavar]

But it's the same thing. Essentially, if the Dragonblooded had the right to rule, then the Celestial Bueracracy would have to listen to them, thus the Censors would do their jobs.

[Green Bean]

But it's the same thing. Essentially, if the Dragonblooded had the right to rule, then the Celestial Bueracracy would have to listen to them, thus the Censors would do their jobs.

Yes, but on the individual level there's a huge difference between "I'm being a jerk and I can get away with it because my bosses don't really care what I do to these guys" and "my godly nature compels me to screw these guys over".

[Tavar]

Yes, but on the individual level there's a huge difference between "I'm being a jerk and I can get away with it because my bosses don't really care what I do to these guys" and "my godly nature compels me to screw these guys over".

Ah, I think I see what you're getting at. Only thing is, I'm not sure where you're getting it from. The Gods have always, from my point of view, been portrayed as a bunch of jerks, con-men, and Hucksters. It's not really personal, it's just comes from their focus on a very narrow subject. The more powerful ones don't suffer from this, but they're all disillusioned by what's happened, and don't ride herd on the others as much as they should.