Keychain of Creation 3: Not-a-Keyblade Understanding & Falafel-is-Awesome Prana Combo

[Green Bean]

I'v'e got no problem if gods are jerks, as long as they are 'natural' jerks. Terrestrials can work with the rare gods who do prefer their leadership, or social-fu uncooperative gods into relative friendliness. I'm not saying it should be easy, since grudges are grudges, but it shouldn't be part of their very nature to hate or dismiss Dragonblooded.

[Kyeudo]

Well, it is most Terrestrial gods' nature to be self-serving, lazy, and greedy, which means that left with no supervision they screw people over for the most part.

[Tavar]

It's more like the Terrestial gods dismiss anyone, unless said being demonstrates real power of them. The Solars had such power, plus they had the backing of the most powerful god, as well as the Celestial bureaucracy, which was full of more powerful gods. The Dragonblooded don't, and because they are "in control", they have more on their relations with the gods.

[Green Bean]

It's more like the Terrestial gods dismiss anyone, unless said being demonstrates real power of them. The Solars had such power, plus they had the backing of the most powerful god, as well as the Celestial bureaucracy, which was full of more powerful gods. The Dragonblooded don't, and because they are "in control", they have more on their relations with the gods.

But the Dragonblooded do have real power over them. The Immaculate Order pretty much controls their supply of worship, and while the more important gods are pretty powerful, an experienced group of Dragonblooded are powerful enough to kick 90% of of Terrestrial gods' heads in.

[Ganurath]

But the Dragonblooded do have real power over them. The Immaculate Order pretty much controls their supply of worship, and while the more important gods are pretty powerful, an experienced group of Dragonblooded are powerful enough to kick 90% of of Terrestrial gods' heads in.

Control in the sense that where the Order has power, the gods don't have worship. That isn't a strong foundation for Terrestrial-deity relations.

[Green Bean]

Control in the sense that where the Order has power, the gods don't have worship. That isn't a strong foundation for Terrestrial-deity relations.

Nonsense! Due worship is given to the Terrestrial deities according to a specific calendar, each according to its need.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I have an unrelated question.

In Exalted, there is a God for pretty much everything, right? So is there a god of the Great Curse? And if so, how much of a 'richard' (using Jukashi's euphemism) is he?

[Tavar]

But the Dragonblooded do have real power over them. The Immaculate Order pretty much controls their supply of worship, and while the more important gods are pretty powerful, an experienced group of Dragonblooded are powerful enough to kick 90% of of Terrestrial gods' heads in.

But that's the wrong kind of power. We've seen it's like in many real world situations, though it's deeply entwined with politics, so we can't talk about most of them. On the other hand, look at mob run protection rackets. From the god's perspective, the Dragonblooded killed the true authority(the cops), and now are trying to order them(the shopkeepers) around. In that case, is it any wonder that relations between the two are strained?

[Kyeudo]

I have an unrelated question.

In Exalted, there is a God for pretty much everything, right? So is there a god of the Great Curse? And if so, how much of a 'richard' (using Jukashi's euphemism) is he?

That's not quite true. There are a few things that don't have gods. Sorcery is the poster-boy for god-less concepts. I suspect the Great Curse is either another, or his god is a master of stealth.

[Tavar]

Only things from creation have gods, and Creation is from the Primordials. They are also the ones who made the great curse. Seems like it falls outside of the God's concept.

[Ganurath]

Only things from Creation... And Nara'o shows concepts are fair game... Is there a God of Genre Savvy?

[Drascin]

Only things from Creation... And Nara'o shows concepts are fair game... Is there a God of Genre Savvy?

There was, long and long ago. But he commited suicide a few millenia ago. It's why there is such a huge lack of genre savvyness in the whole setting, you see .

[spectralphoenix]

But the Dragonblooded do have real power over them. The Immaculate Order pretty much controls their supply of worship, and while the more important gods are pretty powerful, an experienced group of Dragonblooded are powerful enough to kick 90% of of Terrestrial gods' heads in.

The Immaculates only control worship in the area after they've used their Celestial Martial Arts to beat down the local gods. Before they control an area, the local gods are pretty much on the top of the food chain.

Also, Celestial Martial Arts were given to the DBs after the Usurpation. Gods who haven't fought Immaculates before might not have a good idea of how powerful they are.

So before the Immaculates enforce order through force of arms, the DB don't have power over the local gods. Afterwards, most of the gods hold a grudge not only because the DBs lack legitimacy (because dealing with the UCS and his representatives is one thing, but the DBs are only in charge because they can beat everyone else up) but also because the Immaculates broke up a pretty nice racket. Without the Immaculates, the gods are free to demand all the prayer they want and do their jobs when and if the feel like it.

[Green Bean]

The Immaculates only control worship in the area after they've used their Celestial Martial Arts to beat down the local gods. Before they control an area, the local gods are pretty much on the top of the food chain.

Also, Celestial Martial Arts were given to the DBs after the Usurpation. Gods who haven't fought Immaculates before might not have a good idea of how powerful they are.

So before the Immaculates enforce order through force of arms, the DB don't have power over the local gods. Afterwards, most of the gods hold a grudge not only because the DBs lack legitimacy (because dealing with the UCS and his representatives is one thing, but the DBs are only in charge because they can beat everyone else up) but also because the Immaculates broke up a pretty nice racket. Without the Immaculates, the gods are free to demand all the prayer they want and do their jobs when and if the feel like it.

Exactly. They bear a grudge because of what the Dragonblooded did, not because of some inherent drive to hate them. If the Celestials did the same thing, the Terrestrial gods would would be just as grudge-y; the only difference being that Celestials have more protection under the law.

[Tavar]

Exactly. They bear a grudge because of what the Dragonblooded did, not because of some inherent drive to hate them. If the Celestials did the same thing, the Terrestrial gods would would be just as grudge-y; the only difference being that Celestials have more protection under the law.

Well, there's also the fact that the Celestial exalted, and the Solars in particular, were the lawful authorities. The Dragonblooded are the mobsters that killed/ran the authorities out of town, and now are demanding the same respect.

Also, what's your point? That if you change canon into something different it stops making sense?

[GrayWatch]

It's not so much that the gods have an inherent drive to hate Terrestrials, as they have an inherent drive to respect and obey Celestials, with a particular eye towards Solars.

I mean they do tend to hate Terrestrials but that's more a situational factor of the Terrestrials showing up and punching them in the face until they kow tow to said Terrestrials.

The 'inherent part of their nature' comes from the fact that among almost all humans the Dragonblooded are just about the only people the gods see as having a 'not eligible for rulership by right' stamp on them. Even the lowliest mortal has the potential to become a Solar Exalt and thus be their natural, and correct ruler, literally by divine decree, and thus worthy of at least an extra smidgen of respect, for the potential if nothing else. But never a dragon-blooded.

It's not so much that the dragon-blooded suffer a diplomacy penalty due to the gods nature as it is that everyone else gets a bonus for what they might become someday, or already are.

[The_Snark]

I don't see why the gods would have any inherent drive to respect or obey the Celestial Exalted. The Creation-Ruling Mandate was not some reality-shaping decree that altered the nature of all current and future gods to respect the Solars; it was just the Unconquered Sun telling people what they should do.

There are a number of reasons why a god might respect the Exalted: they might look back on the First Age as the good old days, they might honor them as representatives of the Incarnae, they might hope that the Exalted will deliver them from the Immaculate Order. Conversely, though, they might have thrown in with the Immaculate Order or the Bronze Faction, or grown used to ruling their own territory regardless of what Celestial law has to say on the matter. The point is, gods get to make their own choices about this (with the possible exception of gods like Lytek, whose nature specifically deals with the Exalted). It depends on the individual god in question, and possibly on the Exalt in question, too.

Well, there's also the fact that the Celestial exalted, and the Solars in particular, were the lawful authorities. The Dragonblooded are the mobsters that killed/ran the authorities out of town, and now are demanding the same respect.

'Course, demons would say the same thing about the Celestial Exalted.

[MReav]

'Course, demons would say the same thing about the Celestial Exalted.

Yeah, but the difference was that the Solars got the demons to formally hand over the reigns, even if it was at Grand Daiklave-point. The Terrestrials had to shunt the Solars into a prison before they could do the same.

[Jukashi]

- some reality-shaping decree that altered the nature of all current and future gods

- the Unconquered Sun telling people what they should do.

Same thing.

A god's nature is shaped by their domain, but the gods exist independently of their domains - if you kill a river's god, the river doesn't disappear, it's just more likely to fall into the Wyld; similarly, if the river dries up, the god is just out of work, and can get a new job. But gods take on personality traits and supernatural quirks from their domain, and taking a new job will change said personality (and their powers) to a significant degree.

So if you truly have the authority to tell a god what to do - and Sol has authority over all the gods - then telling them what to do is to an extent the same as telling them what they are.

In any case, the Unconquered Sun's decrees affect reality. He's the one who decides whether something is a creature of darkness, for example; and even the Charms of Terrestrials, which come from the Elemental Dragons and have nothing to do with Heaven, will suddenly treat those beings as creatures of darkness.

[The_Snark]

I admit I hadn't really thought about it that way, but I still think the point I was trying to make with it stands. Partly, this is because the setting doesn't really support the idea that all gods are required by their nature to respect the Celestial Exalted, or even just the Solars. There are plenty of gods who obstruct the Sidereals in Heaven, or compete with Lunars for worship in Creation, and while the Solars haven't been back long enough to establish a lot of divine rivalries, there are a number of gods who don't like or at least don't trust them.

The other part of it is because I don't really like the idea that all gods are magically loyal to the Solar Exalted; I'd much prefer that Solar players have to earn that loyalty. But that's just my preference.

[Tavar]

I'm not sure that TUS ever said the gods ever had to do what the Exalted said. That they should listen to them, that they were the official emissaries between the god's and mortal, and that they represented their Incarnane, yes. That they had to do what they said, no. I like to think that TUS recognized that it would be hypocritical, as it would essentially be what the Primordials did to the gods.

It probably also fell more heavily on the terrestrial gods, as they were lower in the celestial bureaucracy, and would be the ones that the Exalted interacted with more, seeing as they were given Earth, not Heaven.

Also, while they have to listen, well, so do underlings in real-world corporations. Doesn't mean that they have to obey, and it certainly means that they can't be obstructive.

[spectralphoenix]

I'm pretty sure that the Solars had a lot more power over the gods before the UCS got mad at them. Not sure if it's spelled out explicitly anywhere, but the Hidden Judges of the Secret Flame spell (from the White Treatise) mentions that working against an Exalt is no longer a transgression against Divine Law since the UCS turned his face from them.

[Revlid]

Frankly, Creation is so huge that, while trends can be noted, I doubt that the attitude of the Gods toward the Terrestrials, and the reason behind this attitude, can be judged on anything more than a case-by-case (or game-by-game) basis. Part of the appeal of Creation is the extent to which the setting is up to the Storyteller.

Reading the latest Soul Eater, I can't help but think that the Book of Eibon would make an awesome Infernal Artifact/Setting/Yozi

Just out of curiosity, is there an Abyssal charm for mirroring wounds? Like, the Abyssal receives a stab wound, so does the opponent? Turning the Abyssal into a living voodoo doll, sort of fing. Hidan-esque, I guess.

[Kyeudo]

No. Mirroring Wounds is a Sidereal trick.

[Revlid]

No. Mirroring Wounds is a Sidereal trick.

Booo.
Quite disappointing, that, even if I can see the logic. Still, depending on which way it's fluffed, it seems Abyssal too. Bah.

[Kyeudo]

Booo.
Quite disappointing, that, even if I can see the logic. Still, depending on which way it's fluffed, it seems Abyssal too. Bah.

No one says you can't create an Abyssal Charm that does the same thing, but as things stand only Sidereal Charms do what you want.

[Revlid]

Eh, I'll see.

Comic's up! And Misho's trailing off mid-monologue again. I hate it when they do that. An interesting insight into his character, though. A somewhat cowardly stance to take, especially given that he's one of those chosen to lead Creation - his dislike of the title Prince of the Earth takes on a new meaning - but I can see where he's coming from.

[Drascin]

Eh, I'll see.

Comic's up! And Misho's trailing off mid-monologue again. I hate it when they do that. An interesting insight into his character, though. A somewhat cowardly stance to take, especially given that he's one of those chosen to lead Creation - his dislike of the title Prince of the Earth takes on a new meaning - but I can see where he's coming from.

Well, given what he's probably seen other Solars do with their responsibility, can you really blame the guy for being a bit queasy of taking too much responsibility himself?

[Rockphed]

A somewhat cowardly stance to take, especially given that he's one of those chosen to lead Creation - his dislike of the title Prince of the Earth takes on a new meaning - but I can see where he's coming from.

On the other hand, I think this stance is better than most other options. He doesn't give orders lightly because he actually cares for the people he is ordering about.

[Indon]

Eh, I'll see.

Comic's up! And Misho's trailing off mid-monologue again. I hate it when they do that. An interesting insight into his character, though. A somewhat cowardly stance to take, especially given that he's one of those chosen to lead Creation - his dislike of the title Prince of the Earth takes on a new meaning - but I can see where he's coming from.

It's a fairly logical extention of his taking responsibility over others, I should think.