Need Opinions On This Situation

[criticalstriker]

Hi GiTP,
My players and I seem to be having quite the little dispute. I am hosting a game that has ran from around level 5 to level 8, so far. It is meant to run all the way up to level 19 or 20. The players have recently been attacked by a string of very well equipped assassins, one of which had a mysterious cloth on their person, on which there was a symbol of six eyes around a center larger eye.

None of players were able to identify it, and they did only minimal research into it's origins (partially due to the fact they had to go on a quest to revive a player who had died trying to pry more information out of an assassin).

Now, they are saying that the piece of cloth was not enough for them to go on. I, however, believe it was more than enough and that they should have done more research into it before they went off to take side quests and such. We both feel that we're right about this, and neither of us are relenting. As such, I bring this to you (they say they're going to post their accounts as well, I don't know if that will hold true or not) and ask your sincere opinion on this matter. Thank you for your time!

[Crow]

Let the next batch of assassins leave behind another clue.

What you may have thought was more than enough to go on, may be way too out there for the group.

Of course, I have had this problem too, and in our case it was because my players are lazy and want the quest spoon-fed to them. So that's what I do now, and everybody (but me!) is happy.

[Serania]

My two cents, as the character who died, is that I used the Cerebral Stalker class to leap into the guys mind and take the information from him. Because he was a hired assassin, all he knew was the name of the order he worked for. And what's more, he coup de graced himself in the face, taking me out with him before I could even tell my friends the name.

And as for the research thing, when, after I was resurrected, my character spent an entire week in a library reading, the only thing she found at all relating to the cloth she got or the name she heard was in a heraldry book, in which there was a picture of the symbol on the cloth and a footnote saying "The Sixth Eye". So I must protest that we did 'minimal research' on it, because that's irrelevant as clearly it wouldn't have gotten us anywhere.

[criticalstriker]

Let the next batch of assassins leave behind another clue.

What you may have thought was more than enough to go on, may be way too out there for the group.

Of course, I have had this problem too, and in our case it was because my players are lazy and want the quest spoon-fed to them. So that's what I do now, and everybody (but me!) is happy.

That's actually what I was doing when the second player died. She jump into the assassin's mind, and he shot himself to prevent leakage of information. She managed to their the organizations name out of him before he shot himself (killing himself and her in the process). The assassin had another cloth on his person. I was thinking that if the assassins supplied another one, they would have absolutely no reason not to investigate it.

[darckkorion]

I'm a player in this game and having read everything, I'm going to express my point of view. The second assassin didn't drop anything, he merely dropped the same thing. So as far as the players understand one of us died for information that only got us a single step further.

[finalepic]

As another of the players, I'd like to point out that we had gotten another quest the morning after/the day (at the same event) of the acquisition of the cloth. It didn't occur to me that I would have to gather information on it. I thought more was forthcoming. That the cloth was a piece of a larger puzzle. I didn't find out we were supposed to have made the connection until after the information had been pulled forcefully from the assassin's mind.

Edit:Also, it would appear I'm the last player, on the off chance anyone was waiting until all the points of view came in.

[Crow]

Well you've got a name, the 6th Eye.

Just dump some gold around town for a few hours and make a gather information check. If that gets you nowhere, look for some local bards or sages who might know something (local bards or sages who could possibly know something, can be located during the gather information check too!). Did you look up anything under "sixth eye" at the library where you found the heraldry book? Any large city has some sort of criminal organization. Hired assassins working in the city might be something the local crimelords might have some info about. Then there's always the authorities who may also have information.

There are a lot of places to look, and that list is in no way exhaustive. I am just curious as to how many the group actually tried.

I am still sticking with my "Obvious to the DM, meaningless to the players" assessment though. This happens with things like riddles too when you try to drop them in a quest.

[darckkorion]

Well you've got a name, the 6th Eye.

Just dump some gold around town for a few hours and make a gather information check.

That was done with a roll of 35 or so total. I'm not sure of it exactly but it was quite high. NOTHING came of it.

[HunterOfJello]

pick a new direction for investigation, move on.

[Crow]

Yeah. You got nothing, so you take another tack on your investigation. Found a symbol in a book about heraldry? Look for an expert in the field who can help further.

If you have a reasonable DM, there are ways to do these things. However, if the DM has set his heart on a SPECIFIC set of actions you MUST take to progress, then you're just screwed.

[finalepic]

I'd like to clear something up:We've already moved on. We have a bigger lead and are moving on with the quest. We just disagree on if the cloth was enough of a clue.

[criticalstriker]

That was done with a roll of 35 or so total. I'm not sure of it exactly but it was quite high. NOTHING came of it.

Actually... The name was gotten from Sara jumping into his mind. Tai figured out the location of the baron with the GI check.

[darckkorion]

I don't even really see why an internal argument was brought here aside from having other people to prove some kind of point. No matter what it seems rather forced and certainly not very classy. That said yes, we have manged to find the name BECAUSE of the character's death and we have moved on.

[criticalstriker]

I don't even really see why an internal argument was brought here aside from having other people to prove some kind of point. No matter what it seems rather forced and certainly not very classy. That said yes, we have manged to find the name BECAUSE of the character's death and we have moved on.

Probably because we're all way too proud for our own good. None of us admit to being wrong unless it can be empirically proven, and even then sometimes a few of us will deny it. Thus we ask these kind folks for validation.

[Amiel]

Did you get them to make or did they make any Knowledge checks?
Did you place any particular emphasis on the symbols and/or cloth?


Have the symbols repeat throughout your campaign. Have the cloth or the colour of the cloth recur as a repeating motif in your designs. If they missed the importance of it the first time, these are their reminders.

[DragoonWraith]

...I'm sort of confused why this argument is even taking place. I mean, you got past the situation, you have a lead, the story is progressing... what's the problem? I really don't see why there needs to be an argument about it. I really don't see why that argument needs to be dragged around in public. I dunno, it just seems unnecessary. Not trying to offend or marginalize anyone, but is this really that important?

[Serania]

We argue a lot. For the majority of us, it's at least as fun as the game itself when we're not at each others throats. We spend half of every session in debate it seems.

As for the knowledge checks, I think between the entire party we made like six. With an average mod of like +13 or so. Not one of them told us jack squat.

[finalepic]

...I'm sort of confused why this argument is even taking place. I mean, you got past the situation, you have a lead, the story is progressing... what's the problem? I really don't see why there needs to be an argument about it. I really don't see why that argument needs to be dragged around in public. I dunno, it just seems unnecessary. Not trying to offend or marginalize anyone, but is this really that important?

I don't know why it's important. I, at least, contributed because I was curious what GitP thought.

[Greenish]

I'd like to clear something up:We've already moved on. We have a bigger lead and are moving on with the quest. We just disagree on if the cloth was enough of a clue.

If the players couldn't figure out a clue, you'll have to make the next one more obvious. Remember that you as a DM know a lot of things things that aren't immediately obvious to your players, even if you feel they should be. Remember that the PCs' do not have your knowledge of the overall plot and are working on guesswork as is. Something that to you seems like blindingly obvious might not be so for your players who aren't aware of your designs, so you'll have to keep making them even more 'obvious' until your characters get what you're going for.

We argue a lot. For the majority of us, it's at least as fun as the game itself when we're not at each others throats. We spend half of every session in debate it seems.

That sounds about right.

[Tinydwarfman]

I don't know why it's important. I, at least, contributed because I was curious what GitP thought.

Well now you know. We think your arguments are stupid.
Also there are way too many other variables to consider, and exactly what happened during play. If the players had to take one specific course of action I am inclined to say no.

[Swordgleam]

There's an analogy I saw somewhere, which goes like this: the DM can see the whole world. The players can only see where the DM shines the flashlight. So just because the DM can see something doesn't mean the players don't see it.

Besides, campaigns generally aren't meant to be as challenging to players as they are to characters. If the party has exhausted all of their ideas to research something, further research will no longer be fun. Since all the fun has been gotten from that part of the story, it is time for the DM to make the story move on.

As the DM, it's your job to keep the story moving. Even if your players are totally incompetent (not saying that is or isn't the case here), that's what you do. You don't punish them for not being as clever as you'd hoped. That's not fun for anyone.

[darckkorion]

There's an analogy I saw somewhere, which goes like this: the DM can see the whole world. The players can only see where the DM shines the flashlight. So just because the DM can see something doesn't mean the players don't see it.

Besides, campaigns generally aren't meant to be as challenging to players as they are to characters. If the party has exhausted all of their ideas to research something, further research will no longer be fun. Since all the fun has been gotten from that part of the story, it is time for the DM to make the story move on.

As the DM, it's your job to keep the story moving. Even if your players are totally incompetent (not saying that is or isn't the case here), that's what you do. You don't punish them for not being as clever as you'd hoped. That's not fun for anyone.

Since no one else is responding and I feel it's rather bad form to just drop this, I'll comment. I TOTALLY agree with that and I think it's what started the argument in the first place. None of the characters or players could see where it was going at all and the DM thought it should be easy.

We're currently playing now and aside from the minor stuff we argue about constantly it seems to be going well.

[Serania]

I'm about to die again. I'm dropping a building on a fleet of soldiers come to destroy us.

[darckkorion]

We're all in the building.

[absolmorph]

I'm about to die again. I'm dropping a building on a fleet of soldiers come to destroy us.

We're all in the building.

If you were playing Exalted, you'd be fine.

That said, unless you emphasized the cloth, and it was likely that the characters would make the Knowledge check to get more information (at least a 25% chance per character would be best; with a party of 4, you have an end chance of about 70% to make it at least once), it wasn't enough to go on. If they only made the Knowledge check and didn't put anything else into finding it (i.e. Gather Information, heading to a library, getting in close with the criminal life, etc.), then there's a chance that it could have been enough and the players just didn't think of enough methods of gathering information. That is, of course, assuming these other methods would actually get information.

[Telonius]

Putting myself in a player's shoes here...

So, I find an assassin with a piece of cloth. Preliminary research (including some with obviously high rolls) turns up nothing particularly interesting about the cloth, other than a name you already had. Then another assassin comes with the same type of cloth.

At that point, I would probably assume that the cloth is a sort of calling card or uniform piece for a particular assassins' guild. I'd review any enemies we might have made along the way, who would have sufficient money, or sufficient reason to remain hidden, to send two separate high-caliber assassins after us. (When somebody sends an assassin, one of two things is usually the case: either they're not strong enough to do the job themselves, but have oodles of money; or they're strong enough to do it themselves but don't want to dirty their hands).