BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 2

[The Librarian]

Nope. No limit specified for the creation of bugs, and even if there were, it's still a half-decent shikai on its own, so long as the user is careful about it. It's also extraneous to a four element theme, and would make the solution I propose seem awkward.

Too versatile, too extraneous.

Edit for Righty: The issue is that the four elements, in and of themselves, are very nearly as far as I'm willing to go for lots of abilities on a zanpaktou's Shikai, even for someone with versatility as a theme. The fact that the bugs can perform numerous tasks beyond that is too much.

I interested Sucrose, what type of limit would you suggest for the Life Rune, as in like how many bugs can be out at one time, the max number of bugs?

[Sucrose]

Zero. As I said before, any of those bugs could perform one of several tasks, so as long as there are enough to accomplish any task, there are too many. Having that many options to choose from, even while not being able to do all of them at once, is too much for one option of a non-focused Shikai.

[Lorolar]

So a weak defensive shield that sacrifices its potential as a weapon is too good? That seems a little heavy handed to me there Sucrose, this is a world of improvement over the previous powerset and the theme if he chooses 5 elements as I believe he has fits better. Every time he blocks with a bug its X dead bugs that cannot be a weapon.

[Sucrose]

So a weak defensive shield that sacrifices its potential as a weapon is too good? That seems a little heavy handed to me there Sucrose, this is a world of improvement over the previous powerset and the theme if he chooses 5 elements as I believe he has fits better. Every time he blocks with a bug its X dead bugs that cannot be a weapon.

Each dead bug will be replaced. The ability, in and of itself, would not be problematic, if left as its own Shikai. As one of numerous options, it becomes problematic.

Further, it does not sacrifice its potential as a weapon, because the bugs can still sting, and they can also heal allies.

[KnightDisciple]

It's like Senbonzakura, but better. Because while the bugs can die, they get replenished. While Senbonzakura is limited to the volume of a standard katana blade, these bugs come back.

And Senbonzakura could never heal anyone.

And as Sucrose said, it's only one of several powers.

(I'll table my fog issue until we resolve this.)

EDIT: Also unlike Senbonzakura, the Life run doesn't rob Kati of his actual sword. He just has extra stuff the sword can do in that particular mode.

[Lorolar]

But can they be replaced and how long do they take to replace? If you are killing them faster than they respawn then that they respawn becomes a lesser issue. If they dont respawn at all this shikai becomes too weak, it starts off at full power (and a fight cant end at the start, that would be bad story telling) and can only get weaker from there.

Really, as long as the rate of respawn is slow enough your arguement doesnt really come into play. A half strength swarm I assume will hit for half damage. One would expect the swarm to be death of a thousand cuts as opposed to a thousand chances for one cut to kill you.

Senbonzakura was never damaged, ever. The quanity was never reduced to the ability to replenish never came into play. For all we know byakuya had instant replenishment and thats why we never saw them die.

As for healing he said minor, as in he could likely have done better using Kido healing, that skill he'd likely have as a Kido user...

-edit again, I'm sorry when did byakya ever need to use a real sword when he had petals o'death in play? All his concentration went into controlling them. They were basicly shards of metal, imagine how much more concentration controlling living organisms (to an extent) would be.

[Sucrose]

But can they be replaced and how long do they take to replace? If you are killing them faster than they respawn then that they respawn becomes a lesser issue. If they dont respawn at all this shikai becomes too weak, it starts off at full power (and a fight cant end at the start, that would be bad story telling) and can only get weaker from there.

Really, as long as the rate of respawn is slow enough your arguement doesnt really come into play. A half strength swarm I assume will hit for half damage. One would expect the swarm to be death of a thousand cuts as opposed to a thousand chances for one cut to kill you.

Senbonzakura was never damaged, ever. The quanity was never reduced to the ability to replenish never came into play. For all we know byakuya had instant replenishment and thats why we never saw them die.

As for healing he said minor, as in he could likely have done better using Kido healing, that skill he'd likely have as a Kido user...

Righty stated on the previous page that they are replaced.

Life is summoning a swarm of insects as a mid-range attack, weak defense, or healer. Now I'm only an apprentice type Entomologist working at my city's Insectarium for a little over two years now, but Insect can be killed by Fire, Water, Stone, Ice, Poison, and Lightning. Don't see a real issue with versatility other than the fact that overtime, more insects appear to replace the dead ones.

(Emphasis mine.)
No respawn rate has been specified, but even if it were slow enough that it proved ineffective at combat, I would still not be willing to accept it because, as I've already said, the four elemental runes, in and of themselves, are about as much versatility as I can accept at all.

Edit for your edit: An amount of concentration that is precisely irrelevant, because Katisugo will have it well enough to control them as well as Byakuya. Otherwise it's useless, and having the rune on his character sheet is useless.

[Kasanip]

To address my concern about that particular shikai- I would like to use the example of Hazuki's shikai from the current game. It is a round shield of energy that appears before the blade of her nodachi (which must be held inverted), while her wakazashi is a healing type.

She is a 4th division member who is a medic. While I do not mind if other people have healing abilities...I think the problem that Sucrose is addressing is also a little concerning to me. If that one rune can do everything the entire shikai my character could have (in the old game too, not in the lower powered game) and more, it is a little overpowered. I think it questions the usefulness of any healing shikai, and in the larger sense then, the usefulness of the 4th division members.

Honestly, I think the only captain who should have a healing type ability should be the 4th division captain. There is certainly plenty of healing kidou that can be done...but otherwise it makes any character in 4th division unnecessary.

Perhaps also the issue is that the power of these abilities isn't so defined- a 'weak shield' for a captain is certainly a 'strong shield' for an unseated. The healing ability doesn't say how it works, and I know I got into trouble with Hazuki when she tried to use her healing shikai because of that, and had to redesign the entire zanpakutou.

I am happy Righty that you lowered the power of the runes, I think that was a big step towards making this character work. But there is still a lot to address.

[The Librarian]

Okay, Entomology 101: The Honeybee worker is a simple minded individual. Upon becoming turning into an adult the worker is given a single task, whether it is defending the hive, searching for pollen, searching for a male honeybee, scouting for new pollen sources, or tending to the young. Once the bee is given this task, the honeybee cannot do another task. This is because the original task has been hardwired into their brains, and are almost mentally incapable of adapting to a new task.

A recent event called Colony Collapse Disorder is basically a result of worker bees forgetting what it was doing. Although the cause of its debated it is most believed that either a parasite present on the bee, or a electromagnetic radiations causes the bees to forget their task at hand, and they simply shut down. The final result of this is bee colonies completely disappearing cause they forgot what they were doing and just disappeared.

Where am I going with this?

The honeybee would be my generic bug for the Life rune. It is set to one task and one task only. If Katisugo wanted the bees to do something new, he would have to wait until either the bees all died or until they have completed their given task.

[Sucrose]

Okay, Entomology 101: The Honeybee worker is a simple minded individual. Upon becoming turning into an adult the worker is given a single task, whether it is defending the hive, searching for pollen, searching for a male honeybee, scouting for new pollen sources, or tending to the young. Once the bee is given this task, the honeybee cannot do another task. This is because the original task has been hardwired into their brains, and are almost mentally incapable of adapting to a new task.

A recent event called Colony Collapse Disorder is basically a result of worker bees forgetting what it was doing. Although the cause of its debated it is most believed that either a parasite present on the bee, or a electromagnetic radiations causes the bees to forget their task at hand, and they simply shut down. The final result of this is bee colonies completely disappearing cause they forgot what they were doing and just disappeared.

Where am I going with this?

The honeybee would be my generic bug for the Life rune. It is set to one task and one task only. If Katisugo wanted the bees to do something new, he would have to wait until either the bees all died or until they have completed their given task.

Irrelevant. My issue is with him having that many options at all, no matter whether he has to wait to use one after using the other or not.

Further, as Kasanip has pointed out, it steps on the toes of 4th Division.

[KnightDisciple]

Irrelevant. My issue is with him having that many options at all, no matter whether he has to wait to use one after using the other or not.

Further, as Kasanip has pointed out, it steps on the toes of 4th Division.

+c to this.

[tgva8889]

Righty, I'm just curious, why does Katisugo need the Reiatsu Fog at all? The purpose of it appears simply to be "Katisugo can quickly understand other people's fighting styles and adapt to them." Why not...just give him that ability?

On a completely separate note, can we also put the translators that people have found success with somewhere they're easy to find, like the first post of this thread or the wiki?

[KnightDisciple]

Righty, I'm just curious, why does Katisugo need the Reiatsu Fog at all? The purpose of it appears simply to be "Katisugo can quickly understand other people's fighting styles and adapt to them." Why not...just give him that ability?

On a completely separate note, can we also put the translators that people have found success with somewhere they're easy to find, like the first post of this thread or the wiki?

If people PM me the links, I shall add them.

[The Librarian]

Irrelevant. My issue is with him having that many options at all, no matter whether he has to wait to use one after using the other or not.

Further, as Kasanip has pointed out, it steps on the toes of 4th Division.

((Sorry, left to go eat))

Irrelevant? I don't get your logic here. First to address Knight's concern. Katisugo sword in the Life Rune is a hollowed out piece of wood with insects inside of it. Katisugo can do much in the way of attacking with it because their are living things inside of it that would die. Not to mention its a hollowed out piece of wood, that wouldn't be worth anything as a weapon, unless it was made of bamboo, which its not.

@tgva: I could remove the Reiatsu Fog seeing that it was an ability Katisugo gained as a result of his time in a void world in current BleachITP. You, know what, yeah, I'll just leave the reiatsu fog as a plain and simple reiatsu fog. No perks or special abilities.

[MageSparrowhawk]

In all this discussion about bugs, I remember Xavier from the original RP. He had a similar ability, except his bugs came in a specific order, in specific amounts, and at a 30 second delay between each batch. He had a slightly larger variety of insects, but as he was in the 4th Squad, that negates the idea of 'stepping on toes'.

[Sucrose]

((Sorry, left to go eat))

Irrelevant? I don't get your logic here. First to address Knight's concern. Katisugo sword in the Life Rune is a hollowed out piece of wood with insects inside of it. Katisugo can do much in the way of attacking with it because their are living things inside of it that would die. Not to mention its a hollowed out piece of wood, that wouldn't be worth anything as a weapon, unless it was made of bamboo, which its not.

@tgva: I could remove the Reiatsu Fog seeing that it was an ability Katisugo gained as a result of his time in a void world in current BleachITP. You, know what, yeah, I'll just leave the reiatsu fog as a plain and simple reiatsu fog. No perks or special abilities.

My logic is that having a great deal of options in potentia may not be as bad as having them at his immediate beck and call, but it is still too much.

I am well aware that his theme is supposed to be versatility, but there are limits to how versatile he can be while still being balanced. The Life rune, in and of itself, is a half-decent, highly versatile Shikai. I will not accept it being glued onto the rest of his zanpaktou.

[KnightDisciple]

((Sorry, left to go eat))

Irrelevant? I don't get your logic here. First to address Knight's concern. Katisugo sword in the Life Rune is a hollowed out piece of wood with insects inside of it. Katisugo can do much in the way of attacking with it because their are living things inside of it that would die. Not to mention its a hollowed out piece of wood, that wouldn't be worth anything as a weapon, unless it was made of bamboo, which its not.

@tgva: I could remove the Reiatsu Fog seeing that it was an ability Katisugo gained as a result of his time in a void world in current BleachITP. You, know what, yeah, I'll just leave the reiatsu fog as a plain and simple reiatsu fog. No perks or special abilities.

On the first thing: what Sucrose said.

On the second: there is no such thing as a "plain and simple reiatsu fog".

There's just "reiatsu". "Reiatsu fog" suggests something more than it should be.

[The Librarian]

I don't see a compromise we can make besides setting a limit to this.

Total Insects available: 30,000
Insects out at One Time: 1,000
Insect Lifespan: 60-90 seconds
Next Batch Released : 30 seconds after Death of Previous Batch

If this doesn't work for you, then I don't know what else to suggest.

[horngeek]

Righty, why do you need the Life rune? Would just having the four classical elemental runes really be that hard?

[Sucrose]

I don't see a compromise we can make besides setting a limit to this.

Total Insects available: 30,000
Insects out at One Time: 1,000
Insect Lifespan: 60-90 seconds
Next Batch Released : 30 seconds after Death of Previous Batch

If this doesn't work for you, then I don't know what else to suggest.

What horngeek said. My suggestion has been, and remains, ditch the Life rune entirely. Four runes easily represents your theme of versatility.

[The Librarian]

Because I don't want 4 runes, I want to use 5 runes according to the Eastern Element idea that features 5 runes

[Sucrose]

Because I don't want 4 runes, I want to use 5 runes according to the Eastern Element idea that features 5 runes

The 5 elements are not fire, earth, wind, water, life. They are metal, wood, water, fire, and earth. If you want to follow the five elements idea, ditch the Life rune, ditch the Air rune, and create Metal and Wood runes.

[horngeek]

Which we think is too much.

Besides, they don't fit onto the Eastern Elements anyway.

The Eastern Elements are Water, Fire, Wood, Air and Metal. No Earth. And 'life' is not an acceptable substitute for 'wood'.

Maybe the 'wood' should be a poison?

[Sucrose]

Are you sure it's no Earth? I thought that it was no Air.

See this.

[Tackyhillbillu]

So wait, Katsuigo's Runes are Earth, Water, Wind, Fire, Heart Life?

Is the release for his Bankai "BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I'M CAPTAIN PLANET."

[tgva8889]

And like Prime suggested, they don't have to be even focused on something related to that. "Life" could simply give Katisugo incredible strength, for example.

[Sucrose]

So wait, Katsuigo's Runes are Earth, Water, Wind, Fire, Heart Life?

Is the release for his Bankai "BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I'M CAPTAIN PLANET."

That assumes that he will have the Life rune. Which I will not permit, at least not as a multi-functional swarm of bees.

[horngeek]

Actually, you're right. Huh. My Western brain just split Earth up into Metal and Wood.

But my point still stands. If you want to tack Wood onto the Western classical elements, take a leaf from Exalted and make it poisonous. Instead of the swarm of bees, which as stated, we have problems with.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Oh I agree entirely. However, the notion of Captain Planet running around the Spirit World made laugh.

[The Librarian]

The elements are Fire, Water, Metal, Air, and Stone. Stone and Metal are almost the same thing as they are both heavy and strong materials, so I fused those two to be Earth. The Life element is important because according to lore, and just hard facts, its the element that allows us to you know Live. Unless their is a serious flaw in my logic, I see absolutely no plausible reason why this should not work.