Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

[Crimmy]

He's the son of Zeus. Ergo, part god. Like every other Greek Hero.

Your logic fails.

Zeus is the Son of Chronos, the Titan. Yet Zeus is a God, lesser than the Titans.

Chronos is the Son of Uranus. Uranus was the Creation of Erebus. Erebus was What Came From Chaos. And Chaos was everything in the Beginning.

If the son of one incarnation of power is lesser than his father, then by definition, Kratos is only a human, because that's the next step in the Chain:

Chaos > Being of Creation > Son of Creation > Titan > God > Demi-God > Human.

EDIT: If Kratos is his bastard son, then my theory is even more confirmed. Following this particular logic, The Son of a God and Godess is a Part-God. So a son of a God and human is lesser than a Part-God

[Tavar]

You're logic fails, due to the fact that Demi-gods are the result of gods mating with mortals.

Also, the son of a God and Goddess is a God. Otherwise, how do you explain all the gods that Zeus produced?

[Crimmy]

Your logic fails, due to the fact that Demi-gods are the result of gods mating with mortals.

Then why didn't Titans come out of Titans mating with Titans?

[Zevox]

Then why didn't Titans come out of Titans mating with Titans?

Because the difference between Titans and Gods in Greek myth is pretty much nil. They're basically two different names for the same thing, it's just that one is assigned to the generation that Zeus overthrew, and the other is assigned to Zeus' generation and those after it, in order to differentiate them.

Zevox

[Crimmy]

...........................

That still doesn't explain Uranus and Erebus.
Were they, too, simply gods with different names?

[Fay Graydon]

You're logic fails

No actually all of your logic Fails.
Kratos is a video game character.
Therefore he doesn't exist at all, the Norse Pantheon exist POSSIBLY from belief.

I mean no offense, but your argument is in vain.
He is equal in awesomeness to all other main characters from other games due to the aspect power ratio and the whole fact no one wants to play a game where they cant do anything cool...
>.> thanks for listening

[EleventhHour]

You're assuming too much. Kratos has already killed Gods, and as such, he has already been worn out. Then be so kind as to explain how could Kratos fight the three sisters of Fate without being worn out? (Not to mention he fought two of them at the same time.)

Which isn't reasonable. The only reason he can do that is for the sake of gameplay. If he had to lay down to rest, and actually wait for wounds to heal it'd take forever. So you get the regenerating health bars and running from fight to fight.

So fate is different in different countries? And here I though you would start speaking logical stuff...

No, by definition, the Fates were above the gods, and as such, They cannot be counted among the Greek Pantheon. They are above it, out of it, if you will.

Yes, Fate is different in different mythologies.

So? He still beat Fate. A Fate that even GODS COULDN'T DEFY.
A HUMAN beat something that GODS couldn't DEFY.
Your argument is invalid.

If you read what that said before replying : The Greek mythology often defeated or averted Fate. In Norse Mythology there is nothing you can do, ever, to change Fate. If you kill the guy who was supposed to chop down your apple tree, bury him sixty meters under the ground and cremate his remains beforehand, his spirit will, or he'll be ressurected to, show up the next day to cut down that apple tree, anyway.

If you allow Common sense, then he will not ever fight the Norse Pantheon, instantly not-losing.

If you allow What Actually Happens In God Of War II for either side, then he still wins, because he doesn't give a damn about meaning nothing compared to Fate.

That's right. But the point of this thread is that, somehow, he is.

*points at above about Fate*

Oh, by the way, he still won against fate, so your argument is invalid.
Yet again.

*continues pointing at part about Fate*

[Zevox]

...........................

That still doesn't explain Uranus and Erebus.
Were they, too, simply gods with different names?

In a sense. Uranus, Erebus, and Gaia were the literal Sky, Underworld, and Earth, respectively, albeit anthropomorphized as deities. Greek myths don't really set them apart as "superior" to the Titans or Gods, it just notes that they were the first things to come into being (sometimes alongside or even after Eros, incarnation/god of Love - depends on the particular creation myth) and were literally the things they represented.

Zevox

[kpenguin]

I don't get the whole "Kratos defies Fate" thing. As a video game character, does he not follow "fate" through each playthrough and whenever he falls off this rail of "fate" he is forced to go through it over and over again until he does it right.

Now, from what I've read GoW does not have any sort of branching plot or alternate ending or whatever, so it seems to me that Kratos follows the line of fate very clearly.

This opposite from mythology, where there are a myriad of ways to tell the same story and each time a myth is retold the story differs. Is Eros one of the first things to exist or is he the son of Aphrodite? Is Kronos in Tartarus or chilling it out in Elysium?

To put it simply, it seems Kratos is more destined than gods.

[Crimmy]

I don't get the whole "Kratos defies Fate" thing. As a video game character, does he not follow "fate" through each playthrough and whenever he falls off this rail of "fate" he is forced to go through it over and over again until he does it right.

Now, from what I've read GoW does not have any sort of branching plot or alternate ending or whatever, so it seems to me that Kratos follows the line of fate very clearly.

This opposite from mythology, where there are a myriad of ways to tell the same story and each time a myth is retold the story differs. Is Eros one of the first things to exist or is he the son of Aphrodite? Is Kronos in Tartarus or chilling it out in Elysium?

To put it simply, it seems Kratos is more destined than gods.

If you see it like that, then Kratos is destined to destroy fate, in order to complete the cycle of "You betray me, your child will betray you". So, basically, he's destined to defy destiny.

[Zevox]

Fate defying, or the attempt thereof, is a common theme in Greek mythology.

I'm curious, what myths are you referring to? I can think of only two ways Greek myths dealt with fate, neither of which allowed it to be defied.

The first involves a fate being pronounced and no one trying to change it. For instance, the prophecy that Thetis' son would be greater than his father, or Achilles' two possible fates in The Iliad.

The second involves someone trying to change his fate and only helping it occur by doing so. For instance, Oedipus, who ran from his home after hearing his fate to kill his father and sleep with his mother, only to end up doing that because he was adopted, so the parents he was trying to stay away from weren't really his, and he only ran into his real ones because he ran away from his adopted home. Or Cronus' attempts to avoid his prophecized overthrow at his son's hand by eating his children, which backfires when Rhea gets sick of it and saves Zeus, who then seeks revenge.

Zevox

[Tavar]

I agree with Zevox. I can't think of any tale where a prophecy didn't come true. If you're fated to do something, it will happen.

Also, kpenguin. Story-gameplay segregation.

[AslanCross]

No actually all of your logic Fails.
Kratos is a video game character.
Therefore he doesn't exist at all, the Norse Pantheon exist POSSIBLY from belief.

The mere fact that you can make statements at all about something means that it exists in some form. This thread presupposes that:

1. Kratos and the Norse pantheon exist.
2. They exist in the same setting.
3. They are at odds with each other.

If nobody was making these assumptions, then there would be no discussion at all---yet it's here, and has gone on for a handful of pages.

If all philosophers and scientists were to use your "logic," then they wouldn't be able to talk about anything. There would be no space for theory, no space for hypothesis, or abstract ideas.

"Here is my Theory of Relativity." "But it's just Math! It's abstract! It therefore doesn't exist in the real world! We can't talk about it!"

[Orzel]

I just remembered something.
Kratos uses time travel to defy fate.
He used save points and extra lives!

Lame.

[Arakune]

I agree with Zevox. I can't think of any tale where a prophecy didn't come true. If you're fated to do something, it will happen.

Also, kpenguin. Story-gameplay segregation.

Zeus was also destined to die from his son but avoided that because of a tip from Prometheus. His whould be son and killer? Achiles, if he got to his mother.

Wasn't the Odissey just the gods being big jerks (like always) and simply not letting the guy go back to his home?

[Trazoi]

Zeus was also destined to die from his son but avoided that because of a tip from Prometheus. His whould be son and killer? Achiles, if he got to his mother.

The version I remember was that the prophecy that Prometheus knew was that the son of Thetis (Achilles mother) would be greater than his father. Prometheus managed to hold that over Zeus simply by telling him he knew a prophecy that could defeat him but he wasn't going to tell him what it is. It wasn't until Zeus freed Prometheus from his chained-to-a-rock-while-eternally-having-liver-eaten torment that Prometheus decided to acquiesce with the tip.

And that prophecy turned out to be 100% accurate. Achilles certainly out-famed Peleus.

Wasn't the Odissey just the gods being big jerks (like always) and simply not letting the guy go back to his home?

It was mostly Poseidon, and Odysseus sort of brought it on himself by taunting the blinded cyclops (son of Poseidon) with his true name. If Odysseus wasn't a favourite of Athena he wouldn't have survived long.

[Tavar]

There's also the fact that he supposedly insulted the gods during the sack of Troy.

Also, Greek myths are hard to keep straight. I've also heard that Heracles set Prometheus free.

[Zevox]

Zeus was also destined to die from his son but avoided that because of a tip from Prometheus. His whould be son and killer? Achiles, if he got to his mother.

I think you're remembering that myth wrong. The prophecy in question simply said that Thetis' son would be greater than his father. Zeus figured this meant that if he had a child with Thetis, he would overthrow him - and feared that any other god having a child with Thetis might produce a child capable of that as well, and so he decided to marry her off to a mortal just to be safe. There was never a specific prophecy of Zeus being overthrown, he simply deduced the likelihood based on the prophecy that did exist.

Wasn't the Odissey just the gods being big jerks (like always) and simply not letting the guy go back to his home?

Well, Poseidon, Circe, and Calypso were doing that, anyway. Poseidon because Odysseus blinded his Cyclops son Polyphemus, the other two because they wanted Odysseus for themselves. The other gods who get involved actually help him, though they're pretty slow to do so.

There's also the fact that he supposedly insulted the gods during the sack of Troy.

No, that was - well, most of the rest of the Achaens. Most notably Ajax, the dumbass who raped a Trojan princess on the very altar of a temple of Athena.

Zevox

[ZeroNumerous]

Next time, can you respond in your own post so I don't have to copy/paste and waste even more of my time?

You're assuming too much. Kratos has already killed Gods, and as such, he has already been worn out. Then be so kind as to explain how could Kratos fight the three sisters of Fate without being worn out? (Not to mention he fought two of them at the same time.)

Indeed, Kratos has killed gods. But most of them are not capable or even knowledgeable fighters. To wit: Hermes does nothing but run around and occasionally punch you a few times. Comparatively, every single Norse God knows how to fight and knows how to fight well. Because every single Norse God needs to fight at Ragnarok. This would compare easily as fighting Ares every single time, for every little item you want/need and without Athena's assistance. It's simply not going to last long for Kratos without gameplay mechanics saving his bacon.

It's analogous to killing, say, a defenseless civilian in a fistfight. Sure, you killed someone, but that doesn't make you qualified to kill anyone.

So fate is different in different countries? And here I though you would start speaking logical stuff...

Fate is different in different mythologies, which is what we're discussing.

No, by definition, the Fates were above the gods, and as such, They cannot be counted among the Greek Pantheon. They are above it, out of it, if you will.

The norns in Norse Mythology aren't much different, except the norns helped shape the World Tree by watering it from the Well of Urdr. Further, whereas the Fates are distinct individuals the Norns are more a faceless nameless mass. The Fates can be seen and defied as individuals, but every single person has a personal Norn whose life mission is to give gifts or misfortune as she sees fit.

It's much harder to fight Fate when Fate is always watching over your shoulder.

EDIT: If Kratos is his bastard son, then my theory is even more confirmed. Following this particular logic, The Son of a God and Godess is a Part-God. So a son of a God and human is lesser than a Part-God

... Heracles is a specific God+Human=Demigod in the mythologies.

For instance, the prophecy that Thetis' son would be greater than his father, or Achilles' two possible fates in The Iliad.

Yet Achilles dies a pitiful death in the very war his father started(a war his father survived, no less). And yes, I was referring to this as being one instance where Fate is defied(even if unintentionally).

Though he is more well known to us, he wasn't in any way greater.

The second involves someone trying to change his fate and only helping it occur by doing so.

Oedipus is also the only other direct mention of Fate that I recall, but a 50/50 success/failure rate makes it fairly common.

Whereas Norse mythology has no similar stores, and every attempt to defy fate inevitably fails or backfires.

[Trazoi]

Also, Greek myths are hard to keep straight. I've also heard that Heracles set Prometheus free.

That's the version I heard too, but it was Zeus who sent him. Zeus tends to send other gods and demigods to do his bidding. Not much point being king if you can't send flunkies to do the grunt work.

[Amiel]

The problem with GoW's Greek gods, despite or in spite of Kratos' badassery, was that the Olympians were very weak, nowhere near their mythological counterparts.

The GoW Olympians weren't so much gods as demi- or herogods.

[Tavar]

Yet Achilles dies a pitiful death in the very war his father started(a war his father survived, no less). And yes, I was referring to this as being one instance where Fate is defied(even if unintentionally).

Though he is more well known to us, he wasn't in any way greater.

Fate isn't defied, though. Having people know you meant you were great, at least to the thought processes at the time. In fact, you're misquoting the fate; if he didn't fight in the war, he'd die old, but he would be forgotten. If he fought in it, he would die, but never be forgotten, and thus achieve greatness.

Oedipus is also the only other direct mention of Fate that I recall, but a 50/50 success/failure rate makes it fairly common.

Paris burning Troy. Zeus killing his father. There's one where either Theseus or Perseus is fated to kill his father. His father sends him and his mother out to die, they survive, he comes back later. He and his father actually make up, but then he accidentally kills him with a javalin, during some games.

That's the version I heard too, but it was Zeus who sent him. Zeus tends to send other gods and demigods to do his bidding. Not much point being king if you can't send flunkies to do the grunt work.

The one I heard, he did it on a whim as he was passing by.

There's also others. For instance, whoever killed the Minotaur took the princess. He then left her on one of the islands that they stopped at. Some stories, it's because Dionysus told him to. In other's, he actually forgot her, and Dionysus saw her and took her away.

[ZeroNumerous]

The problem with GoW's Greek gods, despite or in spite of Kratos' badassery, was that the Olympians were very weak, nowhere near their mythological counterparts.

The GoW Olympians weren't so much gods as demi- or herogods.

They were also very stupid. Hermes in particular is a pushover, and Zeus bothering to engage in melee combat proves his folly when he can hurl lightning.

[Fan]

They were also very stupid. Hermes in particular is a pushover, and Zeus bothering to engage in melee combat proves his folly when he can hurl lightning.

Insanely, the man just simply loved running himself into corners, and waiting for you to catch up.

Hell, the man doesn't even pull a knife on you, he just runs around in circles while taunting you. Hoping THAT will kill you.

[Zevox]

Yet Achilles dies a pitiful death in the very war his father started(a war his father survived, no less). And yes, I was referring to this as being one instance where Fate is defied(even if unintentionally).

Though he is more well known to us, he wasn't in any way greater.

You must have heard a very different version of the Trojan War and Achilles' myth than I. Achilles' father, Peleus, was no one of great importance (he was a King, but had no significant achievements to his name), and certainly had nothing to do with the start of the Trojan War. That was started shortly after his wedding, sure, but he had nothing to do with it. It began because Eris, Goddess of chaos, was not invited to Thetis' wedding reception, so she crashed the party by tossing a golden apple into it, labeled "for the fairest," which caused a beauty contest between Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite for the apple. They asked Zeus to judge it, but he didn't want to since he was related to all three of them, and passed the buck to Paris, a Trojan prince, the most beautiful man in the world. Paris picked Aphrodite because she offered him marriage to Helen, the most beautiful woman in the world, who was already married to Meneleus of Sparta. So when Paris went and got Helen (if I recall, myths differ on whether she went willingly or was abducted), Meneleus got the other Kings of Greece together to go after them, notably his brother Agamemnon, who became the leader of the army due to bringing the largest force himself.

Achilles' potential fates were two: either fight at Troy and win the greatest glory ever, but die young there as a result; or go home to a long and happy life, but be forgotten after he died. He knew these, and hesitated between them during the events of The Iliad. He wound up with the former, thanks to the death of his lover Patroclus leaving the latter no longer appealing to him.

And considering Achilles was considered the greatest warrior ever in ancient Greece, I doubt you could seriously contend he wasn't greater than his father, even if there are myths about Peleus I'm unaware of. (And Wikipedia's page on him contains nothing significant, so...)

Zevox

[ZeroNumerous]

Fate isn't defied, though. Having people know you meant you were great, at least to the thought processes at the time. In fact, you're misquoting the fate; if he didn't fight in the war, he'd die old, but he would be forgotten. If he fought in it, he would die, but never be forgotten, and thus achieve greatness.

I'm refering exclusively to the Fate that Thetis' son would be greater than his father, which proved untrue as Peleus survived the very war that killed Achilles. The two choices weren't fates so much as simple fact, as any hero who fought in the Trojan War attained fame.

Paris burning Troy.

I don't recall a fate being mentioned in this one. In fact, one could argue that it's actually Peleus' fault that Troy was sacked as it is his wedding which initiates the dispute causing the Trojan war.

Zeus killing his father.

Granted. I had forgotten Chronos' fate.

There's one where either Theseus or Perseus is fated to kill his father. His father sends him and his mother out to die, they survive, he comes back later. He and his father actually make up, but then he accidentally kills him with a javalin, during some games.

I do not know that one.

EDIT:

... certainly had nothing to do with the start of the Trojan War...

My reasoning is based on cause and effect. Peleus' marriage to Thetis jump starts the conflict which escalates into Aphrodite stealing Helen and initiating the Trojan War. Had Peleus refused then Zeus would have found another suitor who probably would not have invited any gods to his reception(what with the average Greek wanting nothing to do with the gods).

So when Paris went and got Helen (if I recall, myths differ on whether she went willingly or was abducted), ...

The common thread is that Aphrodite, whom Paris favored, stole Helen away after saving Paris from a duel over her.

And considering Achilles was considered the greatest warrior ever in ancient Greece, I doubt you could seriously contend he wasn't greater than his father, even if there are myths about Peleus I'm unaware of. (And Wikipedia's page on him contains nothing significant, so...)

He lived and ruled a kingdom. I, for one, consider that much greater than dying on a battlefield. Arguably he is more famous, but fame is not greatness.

[Graymayre]

Kratos is not part of the universe in which the Norse Pantheon resides. Fate has no control over him.

If he was then you have to rationalize how the Greek Pantheon never interacted with the Norse one (considering that they both have conflicting genesis stories and pretty much everything else). Because of this the most logical conclusion is that the lack of cross pollination between these mythologies, and the lack of any reference to any other religious system, shows that these are completely seperate universes and that the workings of each do not interfere with each other. If they were we would see evidence of such.

Because they do not interfere with each other, this means that the laws of fate for each is a completely closed system. If the existence of the greek pantheon were known to the laws of fate in the norse pantheon then we would have seen its effect in the Norse time stream (a lack of which affirms this hypothesis that they are closed systems to each other).

Since Norse fate is completely closed, then it would have no possibility of restricting Kratos. If he was magically transported to the Norse Mythological land then fate would not effect him because he is an unknown quantity. It could not predict it's existence occuring or actions taking place anymore than we could predict an alien suddenly transporting to our universe from another. It was not created by the action/reaction of our time and therefore could not be in anyway predicted.

Tl;dr: Kratos is not part of the universe, fate cannot have an effect on something that shouldn't exist in its universe.

[ZeroNumerous]

Tl;dr: Kratos is not part of the universe, fate cannot have an effect on something that shouldn't exist in its universe.

Then by that reasoning Kratos would completely fail to kill even Baldr, as Fate can affect the gods and they aren't allowed to die by Kratos' hands.

If plot-power is allowed for the Norse side, then Kratos needs someway to defy and/or become part of the fate that kills the gods. He can't do either one as an outsider.

[Tavar]

I'm refering exclusively to the Fate that Thetis' son would be greater than his father, which proved untrue as Peleus survived the very war that killed Achilles. The two choices weren't fates so much as simple fact, as any hero who fought in the Trojan War attained fame.

Right, but Achilles had fame to rival pretty much everyone else. And, remember, in this case, Fame and Greatness are equivalent. It's one of the examples of how are values/definitions have shifted. For instance, Kratos is very heroic, according to the ancient definition, which most accurately would mean great acts. Not good acts, just big ones.

I don't recall a fate being mentioned in this one. In fact, one could argue that it's actually Peleus' fault that Troy was sacked as it is his wedding which initiates the dispute causing the Trojan war.

Ah, but Paris had a choice in the matter, and if he had not kidnapped/seduced(myths unclear) Helen, then the war wouldn't have happened. And the whole reason he was a sheppard was because when he was born, he was fated to cause Troy to burn, so he was exposed. Some peasants found him, raised him as their own, and later on he brought ruin to Troy. Yes, Thetis's wedding was the reason he was had the chance, but if he had chosen anyone else, or even not kidnapped Helen, it wouldn't have happened.


Edit: story you hadn't heard; Perseus.
Also, one of the common themes in Greek Mythology is that you CANNOT FIGHT FATE.

[Zevox]

My reasoning is based on cause and effect. Peleus' marriage to Thetis jump starts the conflict which escalates into Aphrodite stealing Helen and initiating the Trojan War. Had Peleus refused then Zeus would have found another suitor who probably would not have invited any gods to his reception(what with the average Greek wanting nothing to do with the gods).

Ridiculous. Even if you're going to use excessive roundabout logic like that, the problem then stems from the gods' failure to invite Eris, not from Peleus accepting the offer to marry a goddess. (Incidentally, it's not as if Peleus got a choice in the matter there - Thetis was a goddess herself, so of course the gods were going to attend her wedding. You don't have a wedding where you don't invite the bride's family.)

The common thread is that Aphrodite, whom Paris favored, stole Helen away after saving Paris from a duel over her.

I think you're mixing up two myths there. Aphrodite rescued Paris from a duel with Meneleus during The Iliad, during the tenth year of the Trojan War, a duel which was supposed to decide the war's outcome. Paris himself had to go and get Helen from Sparta after the beauty contest.

He lived and ruled a kingdom. I, for one, consider that much greater than dying on a battlefield. Arguably he is more famous, but fame is not greatness.

You're making the mistake of using your own personal opinion of greatness rather than the ancient Greek one, then. Kleos, or glory, was what all ancient Greek warriors sought above all, because it would result in a form of immortality through fame. Sarpedon, a son of Zeus who fought and died in the Trojan War, actually spells this concept out fairly clearly in a speech in The Iliad*. Achilles, above all other Greek heroes who ever lived, achieved this. His aristea - "moment of excellence," a sequence of great heroism in warfare in ancient Greek epics - in The Iliad has him wiping out huge numbers of the Trojan force single-handedly (literally - no one else from the Achaen army comes with him at the time), ending with the killing of the greatest Trojan warrior of all, Hector.

As a result of this, Achilles' myth is not only one of the most well-known to us today still, but it was the most revered in ancient Greece, period. Even when Greek warfare had moved on to more tactical, phalanx-oriented combat, Achilles continued to be venerated as a role model, and as the greatest warrior ever to live. These sorts of notions of the glory of war is in fact one of the main motivating forces for why the people of Sparta lived as they did, why they prized their reputation as Greece's greatest warriors so highly.

*That speech, from book 12 of The Iliad.

Spoiler

Show

Speaking to his friend Glaucus:

"Ah, my friend, if you and I could only
Get out of this war alive and then
Be immortal and ageless all of our days.
I would never again fight among the foremost
Or send you into battle where men win glory.
But as it is, death is everywhere
In more shapes than we can count,
And since no mortal is immune or can escape,
Let's go forward, either to give glory
To another man or get glory from him."

In short: if he could be immortal, he says he would never fight - but because of his mortality, he seeks glory. Kleos. Which will give him a form of immortality in place of the immortality he cannot have. Fame.

Zevox