Tooth and Tentacle [base class PEACH]

[Owrtho]

First, I'd like to note that I'm currently refraining on commenting on the Farspawn discussion save that I may consider making an alternate version for games that provide more feats (such as pathfinder)

As a minor note, Chronologist, there is no worldly guise ability. Worldly guise is just the term the ozodrin class features use when referencing the form you are in when you are not manifesting your true nature (since your true nature is technically your natural or normal form, which can make it difficult to reference without giving it a name).

@Niezck: I don't see anything particularly problematic with that alternate version given your lack of form points.
As an alternate possibility though, you could just make use of the Otherworldly Skill feat on this thread that makes fighter feats count as aberrant feats, and remove the requirement of aberrant blood from all the feats as you would normally get that anyway as an ozodrin level 1.

To Owrtho: What is your opinion on my suggested changes to Devour and Swallow whole? I think they should at least be switched around, as devour is deadlier. Also, I think devour should involve digestion. Like, you can start absorbing the essence of creatures stuck in your stomach. Works better with the stomach feature too. Otherwise devour is sort of the odd duck out. Also, I think such a new devour would be less... wordy.

I feel somewhat disinclined to make that change. That said, I may change devour back to its less powerful version, wherein it could not be used on creatures smaller than the mouth. After all, the main idea behind devour is slowly but completely eating an enemy, which is not really there with swallow whole (given that you are swallowing the enemy whole). I could see arguments for swapping the order, but I personally find the utility power of the swallow whole to be much higher than that of devour (given the various things that can be done, from using it like a bag of holding, to smuggling allies in you, to using it as a means of treating strange movement as a group teleport, etc.)

Owrtho

[Chronologist]

DruchiiConversion, I understand your position and I agree with you. However, I really think you should allow the Monster Manual to players, or in the case of the Ozodrin player, give him the Snatch feat, since it is in that book. The Monster Manual is Core, and as such I think it should be allowed. Otherwise, I think your idea of limiting players to one sourcebook is great. Personally, I'd use Unearthed Arcana and make a Gestalt Paladin / Sorcerer with Recharge Magic, unarmored AC, reputation, reserve points points, flaws, traits, and contacts.

Okay, after looking at everyone's comments I guess that Farspawn should remain as-is. I'm playing my Ozodrin in a game today, and I was trying to find a way to keep it relatively balanced. I will use the original Farspawn feat and give feedback on how strong the character was with increased Form points.

For the playtest I am doing today, I compromised with my DM by restricting the use of magical items on my Ozodrin. In effect, when not in its worldly guise, all of my items are considered to be inside my stomach. My DM and I felt the need to implement this so as the Ozodrin did not have an armor class somewhere in the 40s.

I'd also like to make a change to the Ozodrin. I've found in my dry-runs of the class that an Ozodrin can simply dump all of its points into Basic Eyes and have massive armor class. I think you should add the following rules clarifications and abilities:

Feature: ... However, an Ozodrin's control over its form is somewhat limited. An Ozodrin cannot invest more than 1/2 of its Form points into any one feature.

Specialized Feature: At 1st level, an Ozodrin gain access to a unique feature that somewhat defines their abilities. Once chosen, this feature cannot be exchanged for another.

List of Features:

Powerful Beast: If you have 2 point invested in Powerful Beast, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution. For every 4 form points invested in Powerful Beast, you gain +1 Strength and Constitution. Every 2 points grants you a +1 bonus to Climb and Jump. Every 6 points gives you Dr 1/-. Con granted from this ability gives you normal hit points, losing them by re-distributing points can potentially kill you.

Sorry I can't think of any others.

[Magikeeper]

And a wizard who dumps most of their spells into being unhittable will be unhittable. I’ve DM’d for a wizard-monk with AC 40+ at ~level 6 (Later 50-60+) and it isn’t that bad an issue. Granted, Ozodrin make high AC easy.

The magic item thing is a much bigger hit than mere AC, which becomes worthless to most classes past level 10. Ozodrin don’t gain mental protection until level 20, and they never gain death effect immunity. They do get maneuverability and most other basic needs are covered though.

Also, flavor-wise, many Ozodrin only change part of their body. For example, my current test PC has all tentacles and whatnot come from his head. It wouldn’t make any sense for the magic items to disappear.

I think a better solution is to just put a cap on the AC bonus or alter how it works with armor. If this is a problem solve it directly, not by massively altering the whole class.

"An Ozodrin loses the bonuses to AC and reflex saves when it is immobilized or helpless, when it wears any armor, when it carries a shield, or when it carries a medium or heavy load."

If you are seriously spending cash on rings of protection or all of your fp on eyes then you deserve your AC of 40. AC without anything to back it up makes you difficult terrain, nothing more.

[Chronologist]

Okay, so I played an optimized Ozodrin using the stardard rules, and a number of issue came up. The party was 6th level, and the Ozodrin in question was a human with a number of defensive Aberrant feats and a Form pool over 40. The other party members were a Warlock, a lighting Sorcerer, a half-orc Fighter, a Celestial cleric, and a Soulknife. Here's a brief synopsis of the brief session:

Party entered woods, was sneak attacked by archers in the trees. Ozodrin trivialized finding the enemies and recommended retreat. Party escaped easily, then encounters another ambush. Ozodrin, with 22 Cha, 9 ranks in Intimidate, +6 from class, and +5 from feats, intimidates the enemies into submission. Party continues to base camp, hours later is attacked by demons coming out of nowhere. Wizard flees to cover, Warlock and Cleric fly up and rain Summons and Eldritch Blasts on the enemies, Fighter attacks and drops a few enemies, Soulknife gets beaten up and nearly dies. Ozodrin used 6 tentacles to grapple 4 enemies and drained massive amounts of Con, healing quickly as others attacked it. Interestingly, most damage dealt to Ozodrin overall was from friendly fire from Wizard and from a Summon dropping on her.

Party comments and criticisms: Grappling multiple enemies is really, really powerful. Having more attacks than the Fighter and Soulknife combined is also frustrating. Grappling slowed down combat way too much, even with Pathfinder rules. Snatch is too powerful a feat. Too many Form points available to Ozodrin. Maximum needed for certain bonuses. Spot check bonuses were ridiculous, especially when they came with free AC and Reflex save bonuses. In general, Ozodrin had higher tactical damage and defense than any 2 or 3 other characters combined. Most importantly, being able to dish out 12 Con damage a round is insane.

I would list all of my ideas for correction here, but unfortunately this post is already pretty long and it's 10:30 where I am. My only comment is that the class is WAY too powerful, and even without class features it would still be incredibly ridiculous. I will bring a fix or new build at a later point, should you wish one.

[Magikeeper]

I assume you had the multigrab feat, or was your grapple so high that the -20 for grappling with one limb was not an issue?

Anyway, I know the obscene power of multi-grapplining from my days way back when as an anthro giant squid. Perhaps the Ozodrin should settle for improved grapple and a scorpion’s grasp like effect (it’s like improved grab, only no option to grab with one limb and it works against any size). And it sounds like devour is about as absurd as I thought it was. I still cast my vote for getting rid of con damage attack, althow Owrtho convinced me that swallow whole should stay at level 8.

Massive bonus to spot is… why is that an issue? Its something Ozodrins are good at, and I fail to see how the game is wrecked by a player that does not fail spot checks. As for intimidate, I assume you are using never outnumbered combined with your manifest form aura to frighten them. Which lasts 1 round. Otherwise, unless opposing intimidate works differently in pathfinder, any PC with a cha 22 could have pulled off whatever you did.

The giant bonus to AC might be an issue. Not because it is too high, but because it is too easy to acquire. We should realize that Ozodrins make high AC so easy and obvious that it will show up in parties that are not optimized to the hilt. An ozodrin does not have to try to have an absurd AC. At all. I’m familiar with 6th level 40+ AC pcs. Heck, in my current game we have an ECL 5 pc with a touch AC over 40 without magic. When I'm not using manifest form I have the lowest AC in the party. :(

As for number of attacks, lets see… your guy has 6 attacks right? That is a lot. Perhaps feature based attacks should be limited to just (Class level)/3 + 2. That would be 4 attacks at level 6. That would make it comparable to TWF.


Summay:
Bizarre grappler should mimic scorpion’s grasp, not snatch. Grabbing a bunch of enemies is overpowered.

Number of attacks should be (Class Level)/3 + 2, rounded down. No longer charisma based.

Magikeeper thinks spot and intimidate are fine.

Devour is overpowered and gives people a bad impression of the class. Chrono has confirmed this, and I think the other class abilities would be viewed in a better light if not for chucking con damage around at low levels. I think it should just get the boot. Swallow whole should stay at level 8 due to non-combat use.

Edit: Right, and the too-easy-to-get AC bonus may be an issue, even without armor it seems. Unless Chrono was using armor.

[Chronologist]

Concerning armor, there's a lot you can do with a certain Psychoactive Skin or a Dorje of Inertial Armor.

I was a little unfamiliar with the rules of grapplins, seeing as how I usually play a Wizard or Cleric, so, yeah.

The AC is an issue since most level 6 characters are going to have about 24 or so, even tanks, maybe 26 with an awesome shield. 40 is just ridiculous.

Simply put, having a huge number of attacks slows down combat and makes the other players bored. I propose that the class gets 2 natural tentacle attacks at 1st level (as the Darkspawn feat), and a maximum number of limbs beyond that equal to 1/4 their Ozodrin level. The extra attacks over time would all be Secondary attacks.

I think Devour should be replaced with Constrict. Every round you grapple your enemy you deal your natural attack's damage, plus you can wail on him with other attacks. Sounds okay to me.

God I'm tired. Night.

[Magikeeper]

I like the constrict idea, although I still think a bizarre grappler should become more scorpion's grasp-like instead of snatch-like. You could have spared a feat to take multigrab/improved multigrab and the issue would have still been there.


On attack number: I prefer (class level)/3 + 2. Stays about where a TWF would be. Also, I would rather have them be primary. My experience suggests that attacks go faster when they all have the same bonus. Makes buffs and stuff easier. I don't think secondary is needed balance-wise, and it doesn't speed the game up.

I suggest pre-rolling your attacks while other players are going. Sit within sight of DM if that is an issue.

[Sindri]

I've never had a problem with the number of attacks; if you use them for normal melee, it offsets the relatively low power of each. If you use them to grapple, you either deal with a -20 on each attempt or only get a single target anyway (until you put them in your mouth and are no longer considered grappled). Maybe it should specify that the limit isn't the number of attacks, but rather the number of features that can be used to fight simultaneously; then the 6 attacks would have to be split up into, say, 3 tentacles grappling and 3 mouths devouring, giving you a total of 6 con damage on a single target if you pulled it off. A reminder in the text about the -20 to grapple checks using a single limb would also be good, and maybe of the effects of being considered grappled too (such as no movement, no attacks on anyone else, and massively reduced defense).
Meanwhile, if you have at least as many d20s as you're making attacks, it goes very quickly. I roll simultaneously, figure out how many are above the threshold ("does a 19 hit? No? how about a 21? Okay, that's 4 hits and 3 misses..."), and it generally goes faster than figuring out a single spell or martial maneuver.

As for the AC issues, keep in mind that the only way to get ridiculous defensive ability is to sacrifice all your offensive ability. Putting all your points into basic eyes doesn't make you incredibly powerful like it would for a normal fighter (who still had the same attacks), it effectively removes you from the combat. There are some times when this is valuable, like when you're acting as a troop transport or lookout, but it doesn't actually make you any more powerful. A 28 AC on a normal tank is very impressive, since the majority of attacks will bounce while they deal a lot of damage in return. A 48 AC on a normal person, a brick wall, or an ozodrin without any points left for combat features just means that you can ignore the attacks going toward them and away from them equally. Otherwise the Monk would be the most powerful fighter in the game.

As for the spot and intimidate abilities, a) there are ways for anyone to do those, and b) intimidate is of such limited use that it won't come up much (my current Ozodrin character has +45 intimidate and +10 Perform at 12th level. Guess which sees more use?), and the entire spot skill is superseded by low-level divinations, or the blindsense/blindsight abilities that everyone seems to have these days. Besides, there needs to be something to counteract all those rogue types with +50 hide at 5th level.

In the long run, I don't see anything that this class can do that a mage or psi can't do the same or better. You can put all your points into eyes, and become virtually untouchable and see very well but nothing else. You can grapple a single target and destroy them in a round or two unless they're tough enough to resist. You can do moderate damage in melee or short range against a group of mooks. You can use alternate movement modes at the cost of the effectiveness of any of the above. You can simply bypass minor obstacles a limited number of times a day. What is there here that can't be done by the majority of tier 3 and everything above it? From my experience, an Ozodrin is no more powerful than an equivalent level Swordage or Crusader, and almost certainly irrelevant compared to a Wizard or CoD.

[Chronologist]

Maybe the issue is that all the players are Tier 1 and 2. Regardless, in the game the Ozodrin was overpowered.

I'm currently experimenting with essentially making the Ozodrin kinda like the Summoner's Eidolon, only with a few more more Evolution Points and the Stomach ability. So far, it looks really good, especially if you let them use the Transmogrify spell 1/day in order to change their abilities.

[Magikeeper]

Y’know, I just realized scorpion’s grasp does allow for multi-grabbing. Wow, that feat is a beast. It is better than improved grab... Nevermind my comments regarding that.

Chrono: I think your view of the class is tainted by the grapple abuse. You are not the first person to playtest the class at mid levels, but you are the first one to have OP issues. You are also the only person that tried to optimize devour and multi-grabbing (as far as I know). Thus, I believe these are the core issues.

I have not tried to multi-grab with an ozodrin yet, but I have played a mid-level anthro giant squid in the past with improved multigrab and I know from experience that it is very annoying for everyone else. I’ve decided the attack number issue has more to do with Chrono not being used to making a bunch of attacks, but the grappling thing is an issue I’ve worried about for a long time now.

My suggestion for bizarre grappler:
At fourth level, an ozodrin gains improved grapple as a bonus feat, even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites. If it already has improved grapple it gains a bonus aberrant feat. In addition, whenever the ozodrin successfully hits an opponent with a natural melee attack it may attempt to start a grapple as a free action; no initial touch attack is required. This otherwise functions like a normal grapple, except that the opponent is pulled into the ozodrin’s square instead of the ozodrin moving into the opponent’s square. This ability does not let an ozodrin grapple multiple opponents at the same time.

[Chronologist]

The problem in combat was really the difference between attacking an enemy and grappling them. I was doing about as much HP damage with my natural attacks as the Con damage from devour, the problem is that grappled enemies cannot act normally, they can only counter-grapple. In effect, that shuts them down completely. I took down 3 enemies at the same time and only took damage from an ally throwing a Celestial Lion at me.

1) Total enemies grappled should not exceed 1 for any reason before epic levels, regardless of the number of attacks you can make.
2) Devour damage should remain at 1 Con +1/4 your levels and never be able to be augmented for any reason.
3) Form points need to be reduced, or the Ozodrin needs a limit on any one Feature based on their level.

Your version of Bizarre Grappler sounds fine to me, makes the reach worth something.

[Sindri]

Magikeeper's version looks good, though I'm not sure about pulling the opponent into your square (unless you spent the points for coiling tentacle). I like being capable of holding someone in place elsewhere in my reach, and there are probably ways to abuse the ability to pull people in from the end of your reach without extra cost or grapple checks.

One of the things that surprised me the most about this class is how well it self-balances. If you remove one of the balancing factors (like multigrapple penalties) it becomes overpowered, but once you manage to get all the nuances of how it works straight it's surprisingly even. Though I haven't tested things like the Multigrab feat.

Edit: after managing to find that feat (it's in a 3.0 Forgotten Realms book, no wonder) I don't think it's an issue. It only works if you have the Improved Grab ability, which this class never gets. Meanwhile, Scorpion's Grip is no better than the snatch variant we already have or Magikeeper's. It is possible to multigrapple, but it will always carry a -20 penalty limiting its use to mooks. Meanwhile, the limit on features used in combat means that you'll only be able to use one or two mouths on each target if you have more than one, meaning that you end up with more like 1-4 points of con damage instead of 12. In most cases it's faster and easier to use normal attacks or take one target at a time.

I took down 3 enemies at the same time and only took damage from an ally throwing a Celestial Lion at me.

This is the main issue here. Would you still have been able to make all those grapple checks with the -20 that you get for grappling multiple targets? If the mouths you used to eat them were included in the number of features you could attack with (6 IIRC) would you have been able to eat them in less time than a normal tier 3 character would take to kill them? If you had only been grappling one target (either by choice or because you failed the other checks) would you have enough points invested in defensive features to survive the counterattack, especially with the penalties from being considered grappled?

As it is, the Ozodrin can grapple and drain one target, making it the equivalent to a caster or martial adept's save-or-die (or less, since it often takes 2+ rounds to devour even with all your mouths on one target). Or, they can try to grapple half as many targets as they have attacks, and probably fail unless the targets are so weak that a normal melee type could one-shot them and a caster could nuke the whole group, and then only deal one mouth worth of devouring to each (making it take ~5 rounds to eliminate one mook). Or they can forgo grappling and make half a dozen ordinary, mid-power attacks.

[Chronologist]

A level 2 Ozordin with 20 charisma (easly with 18 Cha base and a charisma race) has 3 mouths on their body. They grapple normally. The Ozodrin should have (5 cha + 4 aberrant feats + 6 class + 3 farspawn) 18 Form points. This means they can have the 2 mouths do 2 Con damage each and one do 1 Con, for a total of 5 con, which can reach the target since they are in the same square when grappling. That is crazy power, no matter what other classes you are including.

By 20th level, an Ozodrin with, say. 26 Charisma, 10 aberrant feats, 3 of them farspawn, you have 14 attacks which can grapple, and each one does a MINIMUM of 6 Con damage before augmentation. I don't know about you, but being able to drain an ANCIENT DRAGON of Con in a round, with a grapple bonus exceeding 50 or so, and reach exceeding theirs, that smacks of ridiculous. Naturally, this leaves the Ozodrin with about half their augmentation points remaining, which can raise their AC to such a degree that the dragon could not hit them in the first place, and their reflex save exceeds most other character's saves combined.

Now, if you want to play high-powered, with lots of tricks, and you expect that, yes, Ozodrin is fine. However, for us players and DMs with normal, non-optimized party members, the Ozodrin trivializes combat and severely unbalances the game, especially when many villain antagonists have Con less than 84 and can be drained in a round.

I just want to say I LOVE the idea of the class, so much that I want to play one in my friend's campaign, I just want it reduced in power. Yes, I know there are many, many arguments for why the Ozodrin is not powerful, but the current version simply won't fly in my campaign.

[mrcarter11]

Chrono: If you like the class, and hardly anyone else is saying the class needs fixed, maybe you can just personally edit it down for your game. But the version here, seems to work quite well for most people. And you talk about unoptimized parties, but you seem to be trying to optimize the Ozordin pretty hard.

[periscope69]

Maybe just put a cap on how much an Ozodrin can drain in one round?


The grapple bonus don't bother me, no other freaking class out there can grapple worth crap after things start getting bigger/stronger/have crap that affects you while grappling so having one that can is nice. Also remember whatever they're grappling will be attacking them, and a lot of monsters out there are things that you don't want their attention being focused solely on you. In fact if your grappling them, your normally the only one they can focus on, so having things that increase your AC and ability to soak up damage would make sense.

Also remember that when grappling you tend to screw the other players over since about 50 % of their shots are going to be hitting you excluding those with Precise Shot and that's only if they're within 30 feet.

Not to mention that unless you have that Multigrab feat, trying to grapple multiple people at a time incurs a -20 penalty to grapple checks. Then take into account that Multigrab is a 3 feat investment (2 prereq's plus it's feat slot) and I'd say that you deserve to be able to do that since you'll normally be around level 6 at the earliest to grab it.

I honestly don't see the grappling bonuses or it's uses as game breaking so long as the rules are followed.

[Magikeeper]

Magikeeper's version looks good, though I'm not sure about pulling the opponent into your square (unless you spent the points for coiling tentacle). I like being capable of holding someone in place elsewhere in my reach, and there are probably ways to abuse the ability to pull people in from the end of your reach without extra cost or grapple checks.

Normally you must move into the square of the person you are grappling. So either you move or they move.


People underestimate multi-grabbing. It really can get that bad, even in optimized parties (more time-consuming than AoO tripmasters). The most recent multigrab was in savage species (I think). It does require improved grab, so if we use the new bizzare grappler it will no longer be an issue. This is ironic as I supported improved grab way back when in the first place, but I seriously made a mistake back then. The new version makes grappling less complicated, makes it very clear what you can grapple (everything), and keeps it as a way to own one enemy at a time.

Chrono: 5 con damage at level 2 is likely weaker than just attacking them, unless you are fighting enemies with unusually high HP at that level. The level 20 example was... really, if an opponent at that level is not using magic items/spells/buffs it is either dead or has over a page of immunities. Grappling almost never works at higher levels - to many things can either teleport or have freedom of movement. Granted, levels 6-15 could be more of an issue. As everyone but us seems to like devour, I guess I support a cap on the amount drained per round. You can only absorb stuff so fast?

[Sindri]

As a level 2 Ozodrin, since you don't have any tentacles, Bizarre Grappling ability, or anything else that makes you better than a normal commoner, your total grapple bonus is your BAB of 1, and then your Str of 16 at most, meaning that you have about a 50/50 chance against most mooks and none against high powered enemies. If you succeed, you deal enough Con damage to take them down in 2-3 rounds, assuming that you can maintain the grapple and haven't been torn apart by other enemies or well meaning but incompetent allies.

As a level 20 Ozodrin, if the dragon you're fighting can't either beat a +50 grapple or avoid the issue entirely, it qualifies as a mook and taking down only one is unimpressive.
Even a white ancient dragon has a +49 grapple modifier before feats, magic items, etc. And the spellcasting ability of a 9th level sorc. And 30HD worth of extra tricks. A Gold bumps that up to +63 grapple base, 15th level casting, and 35 HD to play with. And I don't think you get a reflex save anymore when the 20d10 fire damage is going off inside your mouth. The fact that it's theoretically possible to eat one in a single round is similar to the fact that a monk can theoretically score a series of critical hits on a 20th level wizard if they don't have any defensive spells up.
Not to mention the fact that, by my math, it costs about 106 fp to get a fly speed of 250, so the dragon has to be sitting there waiting for you in order to even get in range. You can get around this with magic or weird racial tricks, but if we get spellcasting backup, why doesn't the dragon?

I'm not trying to force you to use this class in a campaign filled with monks and samurai, just explaining how it isn't excessively powerful as a tier 3 class. If you're so worried about overpowering low-op teammates, either homebrew a lower powered version for yourself, intentionally take less optimal feats and abilities, or use a different class. Heck there are several guides online for wizards playing in low-op games, with suggestions on how to conceal the fact that you could end most of your encounters solo in a round or two to make the game more fun for others. Maybe you can adapt one of those if you don't want to switch to a character more in line with the group's optimization level.


As for multigrabbing, I don't think it's much of an issue. If you could ignore the penalties of grappling with one or two feats, that would be huge, but the Improved Grab prerequisite means that unless you use cheese and monster HD, you'll never get it. Without that feat, you take huge enough penalties that the only people it would work on are those that it's faster to deal with by normal attacks, and even when it does work it's nowhere near as effective since you're splitting your mouths between targets.

[Owrtho]

Just a few things that might be noted. First, the ozodrin explicitly states that it doesn't need to be in the same square as something it's grappling, just able to reach it (thus it could hold you a few squares away, though the feature would be open to attack and not benefit from any armour your wearing. If it doesn't, then I accidentally deleted it while cleaning up wording.

I also see no problem with grappling multiple targets. As mentioned, there is a -20 penalty, to such an action, and even with multigrab, you still take a -10. I'll also note that bizzare grappler states you are treated as having improved grab for qualifying for feats. I'd also note that as mentioned, most creatures that you are certain to grapple if you put everything into devour (particularly at early levels), have a decent chance to avoid the grapple, or are most likely easier to kill in another method. The same is true for multiple grapples if you decide to go that route, but worse as you take a -20 penalty. Also, even with multigrab, you have a -10 penalty, that likely offsets most of the grapple bonuses you could afford at earlier levels when splitting it up between multiple grapple attempts.

I also will note I used snatch as the basis for an ozodrin's ability to grapple off attacks for a specific reason. It limits it to only working with bite, claw and tentacle (with the modification mentioned in the ability) attacks, thus they can't use it with unarmed attacks, slam attacks, sting attacks, etc., and it rewards them for making large features, rather than just making a large number of small ones (which grants a larger bonus to grapple).

Devour also doesn't seem a huge problem to me (in part for reasons mentioned), though I could see an argument for making maintaining a devour count toward your attacks for the round, thus preventing higher levels from having 20 mouths devouring a single target every round.

I feel like I had more to say, but my memory fails me.

Owrtho

[Chronologist]

At this point I think that restrictions need to be made on the Ozodrin, but this is someone else's project, not mine, and the changes I would make would alter the purpose and direction of this class. I'm just going to play as a Summoner's Eidolon with extra Evolution Points and some eidolon spells and call it a day.

Good luck with the Ozodrin, maybe someday I'll finally let that power gamer in my group play one and not be scared ****less.

[Matar]

I have to say, the amount of CON you can drain does seem kinda high. And being able to grapple a bunch of dudes might be a bit crazy (After all, you have an INSANE grapple check, even with that -20)

Why don't we test it out or something? This is really just like... all conjecture and such. Would be good to have a few practice fights.

[Gideon Falcon]

And a wizard who dumps most of their spells into being unhittable will be unhittable. I’ve DM’d for a wizard-monk with AC 40+ at ~level 6 (Later 50-60+) and it isn’t that bad an issue. Granted, Ozodrin make high AC easy.

The magic item thing is a much bigger hit than mere AC, which becomes worthless to most classes past level 10. Ozodrin don’t gain mental protection until level 20, and they never gain death effect immunity. They do get maneuverability and most other basic needs are covered though.

Also, flavor-wise, many Ozodrin only change part of their body. For example, my current test PC has all tentacles and whatnot come from his head. It wouldn’t make any sense for the magic items to disappear.

I think a better solution is to just put a cap on the AC bonus or alter how it works with armor. If this is a problem solve it directly, not by massively altering the whole class.

"An Ozodrin loses the bonuses to AC and reflex saves when it is immobilized or helpless, when it wears any armor, when it carries a shield, or when it carries a medium or heavy load."

If you are seriously spending cash on rings of protection or all of your fp on eyes then you deserve your AC of 40. AC without anything to back it up makes you difficult terrain, nothing more.

The problem is that the special eyes allow you to gain the AC benefits while still dealing damage to anything that comes within 60 feet, or whatever it is you feel like using as your gaze attack.

[Sindri]

You don't get Special Eyes until level 11, and they have limited use until 14. Meanwhile, wizards are throwing around 6th level spells, and martial adepts have level 6 maneuvers. At this point, having lots of AC and limited offensive capabilities at the same time isn't exactly broken when compared to Planar Binding, Geas, and Circle of Death.

Meanwhile, Special Eyes cost 6fp each, so the total bonus to defense is +1AC /18fp spent and +1Ref /24fp. And that's assuming that you didn't put any augments on them, so each one is dealing a grand old 1d6+Cha damage to a single target. With a save to avoid. Even with all your points into special eyes it's unlikely that you'll have as good of AC as an ordinary fighter of the same level, seeing as you can't wear shiny magic armor. Really, putting all your fp into special eyes would make you squishier if anything.

[Necroticplague]

Plus, you can only benefit from a few special eyes at a time (you'd need a charisma of 34 to benefit from more than one). Also, for the forgetful, is the attack a gaze attack a la Medusa (you are completely immune by closing your eyes), or is it an eye beam a la Beholder (you can hit them regardless if they look you in the eye)?

[Sindri]

It's a gaze attack, so they can avoid it entirely with a Ref save or by voluntarily blinding themselves, but it doesn't require an attack roll on your part.

[TechnOkami]

Not sure if I'm chainbreaking a discussion, but what the hey its a forum.

From an aesthetics point of view: what exactly does "Manifest Form" look like? Is it simply claws and tentacles appearing out of the body, is it more like Alucard's power... or is it left up to GM and player discretion?

[Sindri]

I think the fluff is left up to the player/GM to decide, and will probably be different for each ozodrin. They might stay the same except for their head or their arm sprouting tentacles and eyes, they might turn into some shoggoth-like monstrosity, their hair might become opposable and open eyes, there could be no change to their body but shadows nearby start to fight for them...as long as it doesn't change the game effect or the basic nature of the class you can do whatever you want.

[Necroticplague]

*snipped*

, there could be no change to their body but shadows nearby start to fight for them...

*Snipped*
.

I suddenly really like that idea.

[Sindri]

It works best at high levels, when you can get Corrupting Land. And gets even better with Sinister Image.

[Magikeeper]

I am back, with more comments!

The horn augment is useless. A medium-sized creature needs to spend 14 form points for a horn. 14 form points for a melee attack that deals 1d8? What?

I think the real issue though, is that large spike costs too much. I think it should be 2fp per increase. That way a small spike is only 7fp, making a spike 9fp. Which is about the same as a 1d8 tentacle. Yes, that would make it 19fp for a horn that deals 6d6 damage. But that’s all it does. Right now I would never bother making a larger spike.

Tail doesn’t really make up for the loss of grappling and other tentacle specific abilities. Although in this case I would just let Tail Sweep be a move action. That would make it interesting.

Serrated tentacle is currently a waste of space. At low levels you can just make the tentacle bigger and at high levels you can add spikes for a 1:1 damage ratio. I think the concept deserves something that is at least fun to take. I suggest the “bleeder ability”:

Serrated Tentacle Additional cost 3
Required Level 7:
Any living creature damaged by a serrated tentacle continues to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round thereafter. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 10 Heal check, the application of a cure spell or some other healing magic, fast healing, or regeneration. Multiple wounds stack.

I know most wounding abilities do not stack, but that makes them really weak and forgettable past low levels. It takes 4 rounds for the wounding to deal more damage per fp than just adding basic spikes. But the bleeding gets coolness points. I added a level requirement because at the aforementioned low levels this ability would probably be overpowered. Among other things, it auto-kills any wild brute that can’t heal itself when combined with the genius tactic of running away. But at level 7 such things shouldn’t be a danger by themselves anyway. This ability is still somewhat inferior to basic spikes, but it is sufficiently different that it has niche uses. Which the current version does not.

Also, I have some new abilities for the Cosmic Horror Dreamscape feature:

Spoiler

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Mind Breaking Dream Additional cost 5
Any soul that leaves your dreamscape does so with mental scars from their stay there. For every day a soul spent in your dreamscape you may give it any mental affliction as though by bestow curse. For example, you could give it a 50% chance of failing to perform any action (a mental effect) but you could not make its skin purple (a physical effect). Unlike other reality prime abilities, Mind Breaking Dream is based off the time rate of the dreamscape. In reality prime the affliction is an extraordinary effect that ignore immunities, and the mental afflictions can only be cured by wish, miracle, psychic chirurgery, or a similar effect.

Mind Shattering Dream Additional cost 5
Required level 6 and Mind Breaking Dream: This augment works like Mind Breaking Dream, except that for every week the soul spent in the dreamscape you may effect it as though by Greater Bestow Curse, except that it can only be removed by any method that would remove the effects of Mind Breaking Dream. This is in addition to the effect of Mind Breaking Dream.

[Matar]

SO. I've been working on that PRC that I bet everyone forgot about. I've been thinking of ways to make it better and fit it more with what you all have, because let's face it... it's not that good. I mean, I love the idea. It's just that the mechanics are rather piss poor I think.

So here's a new an improved Cosmic Protoplasm feature. I'd post it in my thread but it's so damn old that it might be considered thread necromancy. Plus, I think people might comment on it more here. So yeah D:.

Spoiler

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Cosmic Protoplasm: Cost - 4
Appearance: A reflective silver liquid that drips and Oozes off your body. The sight of which is oddly disturbing.
Benefits: As a standard action you make a single melee touch attack. If it hits you deal 1d4 force damage.

Endless River: Additional cost 4
Your Cosmic Protoplasm deals 1d4 more damage. This feature stacks with itself.

Silver Spittle: Additional cost 2
This feature is added to either your mouth feature or natural bite attack. Your bite attack now deals force damage. This feature costs 2 more points for every size category higher your mouth is then medium (Large=4 Huge=6)

See the Taint: Additional cost 1
This feature is added to your Eye features or natural eyes. You are capable of seeing any creature within 10 feet that have touched your Cosmic Protoplasm. This allows you to see them through walls, in darkness, while blind, etc. This feature stacks with itself.

Weeping Infection: Additional cost 1
This feature is added to an Eye feature or natural eye. This eye becomes blind and loses any gaze attacks it may posses. As a full-round action you may sacrifice 1 feature point to ‘weep’ out 8 oozes of Cosmic Protoplasm, which may then be collected. Cosmic Protoplasm collected in this manner deals no damage but may be used in various ways.

Cosmic protoplasm dissipates after 24 hours. Feature points spent in this fashon may not be spent on anything else for 24, as they are effectively “lost”.

Aphrodisiac of Insanity: Additional cost 4
Creatures that either come into direct contact with or are affected by your Cosmic Protoplasm must make a will save or become Dazed for one round. Furthermore, anyone who failed there save will attempted to come into contact with more Cosmic Protoplasm at almost any cost. Self destructive actions allows the target to roll another will save with a +5 modifier to the roll.

Elder Bile: Additional cost 4
Creatures that either come into direct contact with or are affected by your Cosmic Protoplasm must make a will save or become Sickened for three rounds. Furthermore, if the target attempts to interact with the source of Cosmic Protoplasm they take an additional -2 penalty to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. This second aspect of Elder Bile lasts for 24 hours.

Elder Bile: Additional cost 2
Creatures that either come into direct contact with or are affected by your Cosmic Protoplasm are capable of reading your thoughts and may see what you see, so long as you are within 10 feet of them. This feature stacks with itself.

Perfect Injection: Additional cost 4
This feature is added to a tentacle feature or natural tentacle attack. When you grappling a target you may choose to inject them with Cosmic Protoplasm from your tentacle. This is considered to be part of the grapple (Instead of attacking your foe, escaping, moving, etc you choose to do this) and is made as a melee touch attack with no penalty. After three rounds of being constantly injected with Cosmic Protoplasm the target rolls a fortitude save. If they fail they explode and are reduced below -10 HP, dead. This feature may be added to multiple tentacles, but doing so does not speed up the time it takes to make a target explode.

Thoughts? Better, Worse?