Tooth and Tentacle [base class PEACH]

[Magikeeper]

Note: Above post was made while I was typing. I should have previewed. :P
<And then the forum wouldn't let me edit. So I deleted and re-posted>

I think devour it the root of this, dealing 5+ con damage at level 10

That isn’t what is wrong with devour at all IMO. I think DerTollUdo hit the nail on the head – Devour adds another long confusing block of text to the already long and confusing block of text that is grappling while giving the impression of being some new, overpowered, alternate combat system. Devour is Pin+. Anyone you kill with devour was basically pinned for multiple rounds. Speeding up the inevitable isn’t overpowered. Although trying to use devour is likely to actually extend the RL time spent running combat right now.
Granted, Devour can also deal massive amounts of con damage at level 2. I would argue that pinning is even more lethal at level 2 anyway, but I could see people thinking devour is an absurd overpowered ability. The fix I suggested does have the side effect of weakening the ability but its true purpose is to simplify devour so that it is fast to use in combat and is obviously pin+.

In other words, Devour’s issue is PR and readability. It could run for office, but no one would know what its stances were and we would all secretly suspect it ate children.


On the fluff issues:

Spoiler

Show

On multiple wings: Multiple fins is optimal. It is much cheaper to have two large wings since max size isn’t capped. Having multiple wings does make you really good at jumping but that isn’t the end of the world fluff-wise.

What you want is some perfect balance of # of features vers # of augments on features. Adding a ton of restrictions in an attempt to achieve one person’s opinion of where that balance lies wouldn’t be worth it and would add unnecessary mechanical complications. Aside from the size thing, I fail to see a specific issue that would be solved by restricting either. And the size thing is best dealt with directly.
What you want is some perfect balance of # of features vers # of augments on features. Adding a ton of restrictions in an attempt to achieve one person’s opinion of where that balance lies wouldn’t be worth it and would add unnecessary mechanical complications. Aside from the size thing, I fail to see a specific issue that would be solved by restricting either. And the size thing is best dealt with directly if it really is a problem, which I'm not sure it is. Owrtho made some good points.

[Qwertystop]

I agree with Magikeeper's revision of Devour, with the healing changed to be more like how it is now instead of all at the end.

EDIT: Two other things. One: Was "Flesh Calls to Flesh" based on the movie The Iron Giant? It seems relevant. Actually, a lot of the Giant could be a refluffed Ozodrin. Just replace the lasers with mouths that spit lightning.

Two: When changing from Worldly Guise to True Form, what things are kept? Would an Awakened Wolf Ozodrin changing to its True Form keep its bite attack, for example?

[Necroticplague]

Two: When changing from Worldly Guise to True Form, what things are kept? Would an Awakened Wolf Ozodrin changing to its True Form keep its bite attack, for example?

Your True Form is just your Worldly Guise+your features. So you keep everything unless you're using Conservative Form to get rid of something.

[Magikeeper]

I agree with Magikeeper's revision of Devour, with the healing changed to be more like how it is now instead of all at the end.

Like this?:

Devour(Ex): If a second level or higher Ozodrin pins an opponent, and that opponent is in the same square as at least one of the Ozodrin’s mouths, that Ozodrin may begin eating that opponent. Each round the Ozodrin maintains the pin the opponent takes a point of con damage plus an additional point of con damage per four class levels. The opponent also takes regular damage equal to twice the Ozodrin’s class level. For each point of con damage successfully dealt to the opponent the Ozodrin heals 2 points of damage. The Ozodrin may cough up any magical or inorganic items possessed by one or more completely eaten opponents (opponents that were killed by this ability) as a standard action as long as they do so within ten minutes of eating the opponent(s). Pieces of inorganic opponents such as iron golems cannot be coughed up this way and unusually potent items, such as artifacts, might survive longer than ten minutes.

That's about how the martial spirit stance refers to healing damage, so that should work. Two hit points is not a lot but if you drain an opponent dry that would be 20-40hp worth of healing. Sometimes higher. It's enough to be helpful (and good for eating rats), but unless the Ozodrin player is far more optimized than the campaign they are in the ability will not be enough to laugh at enemy attacks.

EDIT: Should the ability define what a "completely eaten" opponent is?
EDIT2: Changed "loot" to "items".

[Qwertystop]

Like this?:

Devour(Ex): If a second level or higher Ozodrin pins an opponent, and that opponent is in the same square as at least one of the Ozodrin’s mouths, that Ozodrin may begin eating that opponent. Each round the Ozodrin maintains the pin the opponent takes a point of con damage plus an additional point of con damage per four class levels. The opponent also takes regular damage equal to twice the Ozodrin’s class level. For each point of con damage successfully dealt to the opponent the Ozodrin heals 2 points of damage. The Ozodrin may cough up any magical or inorganic items possessed by one or more completely eaten opponents (opponents that were killed by this ability) as a standard action as long as they do so within ten minutes of eating the opponent(s). Pieces of inorganic opponents such as iron golems cannot be coughed up this way and unusually potent items, such as artifacts, might survive longer than ten minutes.

That's about how the martial spirit stance refers to healing damage, so that should work. Two hit points is not a lot but if you drain an opponent dry that would be 20-40hp worth of healing. Sometimes higher. It's enough to be helpful (and good for eating rats), but unless the Ozodrin player is far more optimized than the campaign they are in the ability will not be enough to laugh at enemy attacks.

EDIT: Should the ability define what a "completely eaten" opponent is?
EDIT2: Changed "loot" to "items".

Seems good to me.

EDIT: Another question. Since existing body parts remain while in True Form, can a Devour attempt be made with a normal (non-Feature) mouth?

[Magikeeper]

Seems good to me.

EDIT: Another question. Since existing body parts remain while in True Form, can a Devour attempt be made with a normal (non-Feature) mouth?

Huh. I did not think of that. Might want to specify "mouth feature", or else devour could be used in your worldly guise.

[babus]

Concerning Monstrous Aberration, there are a number of feats that depend on your racial hit dice to calculate the effect. For instance, Shock Wave (Dragonimicon, Page 73) calculates the range of the shock wave as something times your racial hit dice. Awaken Frightful Presence, and Awaken Spell Resistance are two more examples.

I bring this up because any single hit die creatures have theirs replaced when they take class levels, as far as I can tell, which far decreases the potency (or actually removes the effect in some cases) of those feats.

Could the Aberrant Monstrosity feat possibly give a number of effective racial hit dice solely for resolving the effects of feats that use racial hit dice as a modifier, as is the case for many normally monster had feats?

[Hanuman]

Honestly, I don't see a difference in complexity between grapple and anything else in 3.5, so it doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother most players?

Aha, OZODRINS WARP SPACE OUTSIDE THEIR BODY. This is starting to make a little more sense *nudge nudge*

[Magikeeper]

Honestly, I don't see a difference in complexity between grapple and anything else in 3.5, so it doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother most players?

Aha, OZODRINS WARP SPACE OUTSIDE THEIR BODY. This is starting to make a little more sense *nudge nudge*

Fluff-wise, I view all extraordinary abilities of the class as the Ozodrin warping themselves and all supernatural abilities of the Ozodrin as them warping things not themselves. I think the only supernatural abilities of the class are the gaze attacks and Sinister Image, which makes sense. Ozodrin are sort of like a 3D object messing around with a 2D world, so they can make themselves bigger by flattening themselves out or even appear to “teleport” by contorting themselves. It isn’t a perfect metaphor, I admit. Calling the Ozodrin a living plane that can change where it is coterminous might be more apt.

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On another note, a small modification would also need to be made to Jaws that Bite with the devour change. Maybe something like:

Jaws that Bite (Ex): If a creature attempts to use a Swallow Whole special attack against an ozodrin manifesting it's true nature that has achieved at least 5th level and has at least one mouth, the ozodrin may choose to make a grapple attempt in response. If successful, the ozodrin avoids being swallowed and instead pins the opponent and begins devouring them. The Ozodrin may choose to use their own Swallow Whole special attack instead if they have one. This grapple check does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


Same ability, slightly different wording to fit the modified devour’s wording.

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On monstrous aberration: Actually, I think you mentioned most of feats that are based on racial HD in your post. There are ~2 more in savage species. Also, that change would make choosing Dragon > everything unless the racial HD amount was really small. Although adding "If you do not have any racial hit die, treat your racial HD as 1 for the purpose of monstrous feats" might be useful.

[babus]

On monstrous aberration: Actually, I think you mentioned most of feats that are based on racial HD in your post. There are ~2 more in savage species. Also, that change would make choosing Dragon > everything unless the racial HD amount was really small. Although adding "If you do not have any racial hit die, treat your racial HD as 1 for the purpose of monstrous feats" might be useful.

As silly as a five foot shockwave would be, you're probably right. Adding that little note might also prevent the destruction of the campaign setting, as the formula for Awaken Frightful Presence is [number] × 1/2 your racial Hit Dice.

I think you see what I'm getting at here.

Edit: On second thought, dividing 0 by 2 isn't the same as dividing by 0, as that's just 0 x .5. The universe is safe unless someone finds a feat that divides a number by your racial hit dice.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Well, I'd say it gains either none, or somewhere between none and the standard amount, as it already is gaining increases to the max feature size for increasing damage. That said, I don't know enough about epic to be sure what would be balanced there.

Well you could change the aberrant feat you gain every 8 levels to an epic level bonus feat, and of course you can chose a non-epic feat if you still want lower level aberrant feats.

By the way I have made an epic level Ozodrin and they get insanely good when you can use tons of points on simple things like basic eyes imagine that typeless AC bones getting to 30 and being able to trounce any reflex save or being able to eat anything in 100 ft. with insane reach.

Don't get me wrong though after hitting epic level the possibilities of the Ozodrin are endless allowing for fun characters.

[Hanuman]

@Folded space

Yeah, I always pictured ozodrins as less of a plane and more of a plane container, such as a bag of holding or a portal to a similar non-dimensional space. So rather than them being something they are in essence creating a hole in nothing and using the lining of that hole to prevent a collapse, but instead of the nondimensional space being overlapped (via planes intersecting eachother lik plan of shadow to material) onto the astral plane like bags of holding are, the ozodrin's ND space is overlapped by whatever plane they are currently on, ejecting contents that break the sides to it (though though the nature of the lining not collapsing the ND plane and destroying the ozodrin.

Honestly the whole worldly guise thing always struck me as a more biological thing.

[Tacitus]

In addition to the class features retained from nonepic levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 20th. This augments each class’s progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. A character must select these feats from the list of bonus feats for that class. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that every character gets every three levels. The character isn’t limited to selecting from the class list when selecting these feats.

Generally, if you progress nothing, its ever 2 levels (think fighter), if you progress one thing its every 3 levels (bard with casting and inspire courage or wizard/cleric/sorc's CL), if you progress around 3 class features or casting and a feature its 4 levels (barbarian rage, DR, and trap sense or druid casting CL and Wild Shape). Monk gets the short end of the stick at one every five levels because they advance AC, Stunning Fist, Fast Movement, etc, etc

Epic Progression: Class features and DCs advance as normal for the class. In addition, at level 21 & every odd level thereafter, an additional size increase past colossal will increase damage for features. Thus at level 21 Colossal+ will features will be the largest size that modifies damage, at level 23 this will increase to colossal++, and so on.

So we are advancing the following:
Form Points?
Feature DCs
Feature Maximum Size

I'd say Thats a step or two beyond what Bard Gains (CL, Inspire Courage, Bardic Knowledge), so one bonus epic feat (or epic feats and aberrant feats) every 4 levels wouldn't be out of the question, and probably fit rather well.

[babus]

@Hanuman

In this case, I think it's okay, and in fact benefical to have multiple interpretations of the Ozodrin's nature. A more bioligically bent horror is a great idea and the Metabolism alternate class feature seems like a good way to represent that. It might also help it fit better in certain campaigns where the DM is wary of reality shifting horrors, but doesn't mind bizarre monsters.

[Hanuman]

@Hanuman

In this case, I think it's okay, and in fact benefical to have multiple interpretations of the Ozodrin's nature. A more bioligically bent horror is a great idea and the Metabolism alternate class feature seems like a good way to represent that. It might also help it fit better in certain campaigns where the DM is wary of reality shifting horrors, but doesn't mind bizarre monsters.

I think it's good to an extent, but the holes here are so vast that when I first started playing ozodrin I didn't really understand it, and without DM-scale knowledge of how the planes, items and general physics of DnD works I don't think I would have made a solid connection, but I would have made several partial and disassociated ones-- the DM would read it and perhaps get another, which might leave the player/dm confused on what an ozodrin's archetype actually is, beyond the sum of it's abilities.

I think having this fluff laid down in some examples would really help, and perhaps if you are warping things outside your body more than just reality warping flesh to kill plane magic should be available.

^I'd personally love a DUNGEON FOLDER, essentially you modify passages to become non-euclidean-- not portals per say, just modify the plane in a very localized manner.

[Owrtho]

Just thought I'd mention, added feat progression for epic level ozodrin. Also, if one looks in the optional class feature section they'll notice the horrific hunger ability, which is pretty previously mentioned metabolism ability. Feedback on that would be appreciated.

I also recall some question about what mouths qualify for devour. The answer is any mouth with a bite attack, though one must have access to their stomach to do so (which only applies to non-feature mouths when the ozodrin is manifesting its true nature).

On the issue of aberrant monstrosity and monstrous feats mentioning racial hit dice, would it work if it counted your racial HD as half your total number of aberrant feats (rounded down), with a note that it can't exceed your actual HD?

The dungeon folder thing is an interesting idea, but would likely fit best as a PRC.

Owrtho

[Merchant]

I haven't followed this most awesome thread for some time but I looked at the feats that have been created and I was thinking if it would be a nice idea to make a feat where racial feats count as abberant feats as well?

I have asked a homebrewer to create a (hopefully)La +0 race that has either a far realm feel to it or simply a other-dimensional feel to it. If i'm lucky there may be racial feats involved, but putting that aside if an Ozodrin has Abberant Blood feat for free then the Abberant blood is also part of the original race's blood as well so strengthening one should strengthen the other right?

[Avalon®]

Orthwo, do the size increases obtained in epic levels (Colossal +, Colossal ++, etc.) apply only to epic levels of the Ozodrin or would PrC's count?

[Lix Lorn]

I haven't followed this most awesome thread for some time but I looked at the feats that have been created and I was thinking if it would be a nice idea to make a feat where racial feats count as abberant feats as well?

I have asked a homebrewer to create a (hopefully)La +0 race that has either a far realm feel to it or simply a other-dimensional feel to it. If i'm lucky there may be racial feats involved, but putting that aside if an Ozodrin has Abberant Blood feat for free then the Abberant blood is also part of the original race's blood as well so strengthening one should strengthen the other right?

Seems to me that you should just make the racial feats count as Aberrant feats.

[Merchant]

Seems to me that you should just make the racial feats count as Aberrant feats.

Simplest answer. Anti climatic but, meh. Thanks. Lix Lorn

[Hanuman]

On the dungeon folding, yeah it sounds a little too useful/strange not to be a PrC, I'd assume it'd work via strange movement usage.

[babus]

On the issue of aberrant monstrosity and monstrous feats mentioning racial hit dice, would it work if it counted your racial HD as half your total number of aberrant feats (rounded down), with a note that it can't exceed your actual HD?

If it can't exceed your hit dice, that could be a reasonable number indeed. It will prevent lower level Ozodrin from having extreme numbers in those categories, and it's not like anyone's reaching that max of 20 feats without shenanigans, anyways. I mean, my own character is going to have about 14 Aberrant feats at level 20, and I'm literally taking no other kind.

[Draken]

So, I was thinking over semirelated things and had an idea for a feat.

Living Blood
As your blood flows free of your veins, it flows into terrible forms.
Prerequisites: Strange Anatomy, Form Points, Features
Benefit: You gain one form point for every five hit points you are missing from your normal maximum, these form points can be freely assigned to features for as long as they remain avaiable, even in your Worldly Guise. These form points remain for up to one round after you are healed enough to lose them, at which point any features created with them spontaneously unshape.
Normal: Taking damage is strictly worse than not taking damage.

On average, at level 20, this would be an extra 26 form points (with Con 14) if you are at death's door.

[Lix Lorn]

That Normal bar made me snicker. JSYK. xD

[Qwertystop]

So, I was thinking over semirelated things and had an idea for a feat.

Living Blood
As your blood flows free of your veins, it flows into terrible forms.
Prerequisites: Strange Anatomy, Form Points, Features
Benefit: You gain one form point for every five hit points you are missing from your normal maximum, these form points can be freely assigned to features for as long as they remain avaiable, even in your Worldly Guise. These form points remain for up to one round after you are healed enough to lose them, at which point any features created with them spontaneously unshape.
Normal: Taking damage is strictly worse than not taking damage.

On average, at level 20, this would be an extra 26 form points (with Con 14) if you are at death's door.

I like that one! Also, fits the creepiness idea quite well. You stab someone, and after a second, the flow of blood turns into a tentacle with a mouth on the end, and bites you!

Should be [Abberant], though.

[Draken]

I knew I was forgetting something important! The feat tag.

[Magikeeper]

Do you have to still use a normal action to spend the fp? If so, I would alter the text because it could be misinterpreted as suggesting that you can instantly spend the newly gained fp. Also, why does it work in your worldly guise? Strange Anatomy doesn't work in your worldly guise, so why would this?

I can't say much else without playtesting that feat, which I personally can't do as my Ozodrin's HP is much higher than any normal Ozodrin's hp would be.

[Amechra]

Do you have to still use a normal action to spend the fp? If so, I would alter the text because it could be misinterpreted as suggesting that you can instantly spend the newly gained fp. Also, why does it work in your worldly guise? Strange Anatomy doesn't work in your worldly guise, so why would this?

I can't say much else without playtesting that feat, which I personally can't do as my Ozodrin's HP is much higher than any normal Ozodrin's hp would be.

Well, the idea is that you are forming your blood and viscera into tentacles and such, so...

[Nanoblack]

I'm not going to touch your other points, but check out the machine PRC that Owrtho got started on (unfinished) for all of your machine/ozodrin needs.

As for your comment on quantity vs quality of wings, well, no one is forcing you to fluff it that way. Just think of every investment in your features as another step closer to perfection of form if you like, each one improving it another step.

[Owrtho]

Thought I'd mention that I went and updated the first page with a handful of feats that had been scattered throughout these last few pages I never got around to putting up there (specifically, two healing feats, stigma, and the shadowcasting horror feat). As for the Living Blood feat, it seems like it should specify if it allows immediate assigning of the form points, or allows them to be assigned at the normal rate even if not in the worldly guise and lacking aberrant nature. Also should as mentioned specify it is an aberrant feat, as well as have aberrant blood listed as a prerequisite (since all aberrant feats do, even if it seems redundant given other prerequisites).

For those who haven't noticed, I also made a minor change to the esoteric PRCs, see the menacing manor thread for details and feedback on that.

I really should try to finish the machine at some point, but have been somewhat lacking in ideas of how to do so as of late... Also I'm currently trying to work on another project, the nature of which I shall give no more hints about until it is ready to post (even if you aren't the one person with whom it has been discussed).

Owrtho