Relationship Woes and Advice: The Thirteenth Woerier

[Umael]

...

Yeah.

Okay, slap me with a trout. That was sloppy defining.

[FoE]

I wasn't sure if this was a better question for the Relationship Woes thread or the LGBT thread, but I'll try here first.

So! I've got one of those, whatchamacallit, hypothetical questions. This is not about me, but it's about someone I know. A friend of a friend of a friend. "That's what they all say," right? But I assure you, that's not the case. I ain't dating anyone at the moment.

So, Guy meets Girl. Girl seems a bit apprehensive about dating him at first, but after hanging out with each other, they reach that point where one could safely say they're in a relationship. They get along very well together, she seems to be very happy around him (and he feels very happy around her) and the Girl seems to enjoy the, ahem, physical portion of the relationship, in as much as the Guy can tell. The Guy himself has no complaints in that regard.

Eventually, it reaches that point where the Guy tells the Girl "I love you," and she tell him — without hesitating — that she loves him right back.

So things seem all merry and well for the happy couple. EXCEPT, as they spend time together and learn more about each other's past, the Guy learns that he's the Girl's first boyfriend. Up until this point, the Girl has only had other girlfriends, and in fact, the last very serious relationship she was in was with a Woman. That relationship had lasted for years and might have lasted forever had the Woman not done something really, really terrible to the Girl that she could never make up for.

This is all terribly confounding to the Guy, and he questions the Girl about it, and she says she preferred women but was OK with men.

Now the Guy is in love with the Girl, but being the romantic, chivalrous fool that he is, he briefly contemplates breaking up with her. Why? Because he really wants her to be happy. He has no problems with her past or her sexuality, but he really loves her and wonders if she couldn't find someone who was a better fit for her — namely, another Girl. He's a nice Guy and all, but he ain't no prize catch, or at least that's what he tells himself; the Guy has some self-esteem issues. He contemplates this even though there aren't any other women currently in the picture for the girl.

I tell the Guy that he's a damn fool, that the Girl can make up her own mind about who she dates and that he'd be doing her a greater disservice by breaking up with her. He grudgingly accepts my advice, but still wonders if that's The Right Thing to Do, something he constantly obsesses over. He's kind of Lawful Stupid.

What do you think?

[Coidzor]

He's stupid, yeah. That's probably the worst reasoning I've ever run into.

And approaching relationships in entirely the wrong direction. I think it's like sideways and upside down at the same time.

While going not quite parallel.

[Marillion]

I tell the Guy that he's a damn fool, that the Girl can make up her own mind about who she dates and that he'd be doing her a greater disservice by breaking up with her. He grudgingly accepts my advice, but still wonders if that's The Right Thing to Do, something he constantly obsesses over. He's kind of Lawful Stupid.

What do you think?

A damn fool indeed. While he might (might) be doing the right thing if she was unhappy with the way things are going or there was a girl that she wanted to be with, that isn't the case and he's blowing her past out of proportion.

I've never understood people who would just give up someone they love like that. My personal feeling on the matter is that if you love someone, you should strive with everything you have to be the CAUSE of their happiness. Sure, if things aren't working out and your lover is unhappy and all your efforts are bootless, you should go your separate ways, but to just give up and throw away a relationship that hasn't really had a chance to bloom just on the off-chance that they'll be happier without you? That says a lot to me about his self image.

[Zeb The Troll]

I tell the Guy that he's a damn fool, that the Girl can make up her own mind about who she dates and that he'd be doing her a greater disservice by breaking up with her.

FoE - This is exactly what I'd say to him. She's made a decision about who she wants to see. She'd likely find it insulting for him to make that decision for her. I would if I were in her shoes.

[Pheehelm]

I'm with everyone else. Deciding who she's most happy with is her call, not his. The "prefers women" thing is distracting him, I think; a person may prefer a particular hair/eye/skin color, height, body type, personality, whatever, but still be perfectly happy with someone who doesn't match that particular.

[FoE]

He has some self-image issues, yes. He's not had much luck with women in the past, so I think that plays into it. But he doesn't want to lose her, so it wasn't too hard to convince him.

[xPANCAKEx]

hes being a bellend - hes worried that she'll leave him so hes trying to pre-empt it by calling it off

tell him not to be so stupid - if he wants her to be happy, he'll stay with her as he is the PERSON (not the man, not the woman - the person! she is attracted to both after all) that she is in love with

[Quincunx]

Fishmongers' paradise, these last few pages. . .a trout for FoE's friend, a trout for Umael (by request), a trout for Marillion, a trout for Marillion's friend, and an electric trout for Marillion's female friend.

Adumbration, the last time I saw an imbalance that severe was in an algebra class, and the two guys did slip pretty quick into a 'got your back, bro' stance despite not knowing one another beforehand. Friendship? I don't know. On the other hand, I did see the ratio flipped when I started college (university) (whatever); in those first few weeks when relationships set as swiftly as epoxy glues, there was a rush to get acquainted with member-of-the-minority. Don't count on having much alone time until the social jockeying has been completed.

[The Extinguisher]

Someone slap me really hard please. I want to know if this is all a nightmare.


I dated this girl for a while, now she's doing this long distance thing with the same person she was dating before we got together. We broke up, it was tough at first, but we managed to stay friends, which was nice, because she's a great girl. We hang out and drink together a lot, but she's always been weary of just the two of us hanging out by ourselves. I mostly thought it was because her boyfriend really, really doesn't like me.

Anyways, I'm planning a fairly standard evening of getting drunk and watching bad movies when she just straight up says (after being excited about it before hand) that she doesn't want to hang out with me when it's just the two of us anymore. After we talk a bit, she tells me that she can't do it, because she still wants to sleep with me, but can't because of her internet boyfriend.

We get into an argument over this, because I've basically put myself through hell trying to make the friendship work despite any history we had, because I value her friendship. I don't make good friends very easily, so I hold on to the ones I have. I'm trying to work at it despite any feelings, physical or emotional, I have for her still, and she doesn't want to be friends because she's still physically attracted to me, and really only wants to have sex with me because her boyfriend is in another country.

Maybe I'm being selfish over this? Probably. But I just don't think it's fair.

[xPANCAKEx]

The Extinguisher

Shes the one being selfish - not you... So we'll have no more of that talk from you young man!

Things are never "fair" when it comes to the world of romance. As much as i can understand not having many people to call friends and valuing the ones you do have (i know LOTS of people. LOTS... but theres not many of them i'd put on my christmas card list), you sometimes have to walk away. Shes not willing to make the same effort to maintain a friendship as you are. While i admire her honesty in the situation, even the compliment of "i still want in your pants roflzzz" doesnt diminish that fact. Take stock in two things: you've put yourself into an emotionally difficult situation, and while you may not have ended with the result you wanted (a decent friendship), you HAVE persevered even in hard times, and thats not an easy thing to do. Secondly, shes 'walking away' because SHE cant handle it, not because you've made things uncomfortable.

I know despite all this it feels like a kick in the teeth, but just hang out with other friends for a while and keep yourself busy. The balls in her court, and in all fairness, you've made more than enough effort on your part so you have zero reason for any self-recrimination

[MountainKing]

Someone slap me really hard please. I want to know if this is all a nightmare.


I dated this girl for a while, now she's doing this long distance thing with the same person she was dating before we got together. We broke up, it was tough at first, but we managed to stay friends, which was nice, because she's a great girl. We hang out and drink together a lot, but she's always been weary of just the two of us hanging out by ourselves. I mostly thought it was because her boyfriend really, really doesn't like me.

Anyways, I'm planning a fairly standard evening of getting drunk and watching bad movies when she just straight up says (after being excited about it before hand) that she doesn't want to hang out with me when it's just the two of us anymore. After we talk a bit, she tells me that she can't do it, because she still wants to sleep with me, but can't because of her internet boyfriend.

We get into an argument over this, because I've basically put myself through hell trying to make the friendship work despite any history we had, because I value her friendship. I don't make good friends very easily, so I hold on to the ones I have. I'm trying to work at it despite any feelings, physical or emotional, I have for her still, and she doesn't want to be friends because she's still physically attracted to me, and really only wants to have sex with me because her boyfriend is in another country.

Maybe I'm being selfish over this? Probably. But I just don't think it's fair.

...holy crap it's like looking in a frigging ASCII mirror!

Pancake already covered you, but I'll reinforce his point; it's not *your* fault that she can't handle her feelings. You do not deserve a smacking, though for the sake of waking from a potential nightmare, *ker-POW!*, now brush your shoulders off man. I understand what it's like to not make good friends easily, and the drive to hold on to the ones you have. If she can't sort herself out though, you don't have much of a choice.

And believe you me, it's hard. Hard as balls.

[Pyrian]

And group activities are impossible because...? I don't think her position is particularly unreasonable. Temptation is a nuisance and just because you're willing to suck it up and deal doesn't mean anybody else will want to.

[MountainKing]

...curse you and your ineffably logical, objective perspective on everything, Pyrian!

I'm still on Extin's side though; it could be that all of her friends are annoying, or maybe she doesn't have any other friends. It's possible, though kinda unlikely... It's not often I encounter someone who legitimately has *nobody* to hang out with.

[skywalker]

Okay, you're not risking a whole lot, and you're not raining on any parades that couldn't use some moisture anyway. Yeah, there's a reasonable chance things get messy, but hey, it's not like that didn't happen with your last relationship anyway. I think that if you want to, go ahead.

I like the sound of this, but!

Is a (potentially?) emotionally entangling situation really what you need right now? You said yourself, you're not even 75%. I don't know what your baseline is, but that don't sound too great.

I'd recommend taking a little more time before you do any of this stuff, not because of the stuff inherently, but because sometimes when you break up (especially with a fiance), time is a good, good thing. So long as you're not being a shut-in about it. Which you aren't, but staying away from romance (or... sex) for a little while could have positive benefits. It's not like you met some really great girl who you'd like to pursue a thing with and who you don't have the luxury of time with. As I recall, some guy wants his GF to have sex with another dude. He picked you. What you're getting out of the deal is free, no-strings, short-term sex. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.

I've never understood people who would just give up someone they love like that. My personal feeling on the matter is that if you love someone, you should strive with everything you have to be the CAUSE of their happiness. Sure, if things aren't working out and your lover is unhappy and all your efforts are bootless, you should go your separate ways, but to just give up and throw away a relationship that hasn't really had a chance to bloom just on the off-chance that they'll be happier without you? That says a lot to me about his self image.

He (stupidly, immaturely) thinks he's being the bigger man, and also probably thinks that he's smarter than her, and she needs (needed) him to make this decision for her. Now, if I were a more aggressive feminist, I might tangent-ize about how this is a typical male viewpoint, being smarter than women, but it's quite possible that he thinks he's smarter than everyone, or only believes himself to be smarter than her on this issue. Either way, he's being a colossal dillhole in this situation.

We get into an argument over this, because I've basically put myself through hell trying to make the friendship work despite any history we had, because I value her friendship. I don't make good friends very easily, so I hold on to the ones I have. I'm trying to work at it despite any feelings, physical or emotional, I have for her still, and she doesn't want to be friends because she's still physically attracted to me, and really only wants to have sex with me because her boyfriend is in another country.

Maybe I'm being selfish over this? Probably. But I just don't think it's fair.

Selfishness is not always a flaw, especially not the horrific one we make it out to be in popular culture.

Also, it is not entirely out of the question that she wants to sleep with you for reasons other than (or in addition to) physical attraction.

I personally think until you can be around her, even think of her without any pangs of "it would be great to have what we had," it might be best to keep contact down low, around minimal.

Just trying to put a more moderate (and thus more likely) face on things.

[Pyrian]

Semantic gripe regarding "selfishness":

Spoiler

Show

Selfishness means without regard for others. It is usually a moral failing, when defined as such (except, of course, when no others are involved anyway, or when such regard would not change anything).

Selfishness does not simply mean doing things for yourself (despite the root term). Doing things for yourself is normal, necessary, and even dare I say often quite moral. It can be moral to take care of yourself first and foremost because that allows you to take care of others and relieves others of the burden of taking care of you. E.g., we're instructed to put our own oxygen masks on first because otherwise we might not manage to put them on our children before passing out, and not because we're fundamentally more important than them.

Note that even motivations of avoiding punishment are still taking others into account (albeit in a self-centered fashion) and therefore can escape being truly selfish. ...Suspicious, though.

Now, let's take Extinguisher's ex as an example. Her motivation is to avoid temptation to cheat. She doesn't want to cheat because that would be cruel to her boyfriend. (And, frankly, I suspect her boyfriend might be a bit uncomfortable with her hanging out alone with her still-attractive ex, anyway.) This cannot possibly be classified as "selfish" as the fundamental motivation is for somebody else!

[Coidzor]

Rather silly of her not to make a move to start including others though, if it was wearing on her.

[MountainKing]

Rather silly of her not to make a move to start including others though, if it was wearing on her.

I think this is also another acceptable, if not even excellent, point. If it was such a big deal, why didn't she make any suggestions to include others (unless my other point, that maybe she just doesn't have any friends, was true) in order to rectify the situation?

[Marillion]

Is a (potentially?) emotionally entangling situation really what you need right now? You said yourself, you're not even 75%. I don't know what your baseline is, but that don't sound too great.

My baseline is "Cantankerous, grouchy, and sarcastic...But in a lovable way" and it goes down from there. Waaaaaaaay down.

He (stupidly, immaturely) thinks he's being the bigger man, and also probably thinks that he's smarter than her, and she needs (needed) him to make this decision for her. Now, if I were a more aggressive feminist, I might tangent-ize about how this is a typical male viewpoint, being smarter than women, but it's quite possible that he thinks he's smarter than everyone, or only believes himself to be smarter than her on this issue. Either way, he's being a colossal dillhole in this situation.

If I hadn't seen so many women make the exact same judgment call for their boyfriends, I might agree. I would say it's less an "I'm smarter than my lover and he/she can't make this decision" thing than an "I'm not that great a person and my lover would be better off without me" thing.

Extinguisher: It really does suck. But...she's kind of right. If she still has feelings for you but doesn't want to act on them, and you still have feelings for her, you two being alone together is not a good idea. That's why my ex and I only hang out in mixed company or in public places. And there's no reason why you and she can't hang out in mixed company or public places.

[Syka]

Um...why is she getting flack for recognizing something that could potentially ruin her romantic relationship, and take appropriate measures?

I mean, when I had a thing for a friend of mine whilst in an LDR, I knew better than to hang out with him alone or in a situation where something could happen. I never told him such, and we continued hanging out in public and group situations on a regular basis, but I didn't trust myself. Being in a non-LDR I know I could trust myself now if I was in such a position.


So...I'm just curious why people are digging on the girl? I applaud her for recognizing this rather than setting herself up for a potentially disasterous situation. Her decision is NOT a reflection upon Extinguisher, nor her boyfriend, nor really herself. If anything I'd say it's positive that she is that self-aware.

I'll note, I didn't see where she said no to being friends period, or hanging out period. Just hanging out in a situation that could lead to something less than savory.



On the potential love triangle: I'd advise against it for 3 main reasons.

1. You are not in a place after your break up to get entangled in such a mess, it seems. And the likelihood of this turning in to a mess are large.

2. There is a past here (namely, Guy cheating with Ex-Fiance). This increases chance of Mess significantly.

3. Girl didn't really seem to be in to it and just doing it to appease Guy. Once again, increases chance and amount of Mess.


If there was no past, and Girl wanted to do it of her own violition, I wouldn't be opposed even with your recent break up. But all three together? Make me very, very wary.

Plus, there is a chance that Guy could not be as OK with it as he thinks, and then spread a lie that you and Girl cheated or some such.

[Coidzor]

Um...why is she getting flack for recognizing something that could potentially ruin her romantic relationship, and take appropriate measures?

Because she just said, "NOPE, NOT GONNA HANG OUT WITH YOU ANYMORE, BYE." instead of "Y'know what, I don't really want to just hang around alone getting drunk anymore, we should do something more sociable when we hang out."

Sure, it's appropriate to no longer want to hang out one on one getting drunk. Incredibly rude to not even give the semblance of trying and not telling him she doesn't give a rat's fig for him anymore.

There, I just expounded upon the last time I said it. Still moonspeak?

[Syka]

I got the impression that she canceled the movie night or whatever, not put an embargo on ever hanging out again EVAR. I could be wrong, though.



And...yeah, I just checked. Extinguisher said she said, and I quote:

when she just straight up says (after being excited about it before hand) that she doesn't want to hang out with me when it's just the two of us anymore.

Emphasis mine.

[MountainKing]

I think part of the problem was that she was perfectly okay with it earlier in the day, and then out of nowhere, she suddenly had issues with it.

[Syka]

I think part of the problem was that she was perfectly okay with it earlier in the day, and then out of nowhere, she suddenly had issues with it.

Because people can't be excited about something and then realize "Oh..wait...that probably isn't such a good idea for X, Y, or Z reason."? As someone whose been in a similar (but different) position, she probably WAS really excited. Once the excitement died down, she realized the issues that can come from A. being alone with him while B. drunk.

Better judgement and all that.

[MountainKing]

Nyeeeeeh, okay, I guess. That doesn't change what I said earlier, that if going in a group wasn't a big deal, she could've just invited somebody to come with, instead of just canceling.

[Syka]

Since it's at Ex's house (presumably), it would be rude to invite someone over. Honestly, if for some reason I had to cancel due to something not involving someone else, I'd not invite that someone else and would feel a bit awkward asking the person whose house it would be at if Someone Else could come. Since, well, it's their place.

Now, that is a good idea, though- perhaps Ex could talk to her about rescheduling the drunken-movie night later this week with both of them including friends who won't let them do something stupid.

[Coidzor]

See, that's the thing, she delivers this ultimatum and breaks off contact, rather than attempt to work around the impasse or be diplomatic about it.

Rude.

[Marillion]

Wisdom

+1

As for my love triangle thing, you are right about the chances of it becoming a mess being uncomfortably high. But if it does, again, I wouldn't be losing close friends, and the mess would be easily cut out of my life as I am not required by social or financial obligations to interact with them at all.

See, that's the thing, she delivers this ultimatum and breaks off contact, rather than attempt to work around the impasse or be diplomatic about it.

Rude.

We don't know that for certain. From what it sounds like, the fight may have occurred when Extinguisher took it too personally before she ever got a chance to work around this problem.

[Syka]

But I saw nowhere in Ex's post that an ultimatum was delivered beyond, "I'm not comfortable hanging out with you ALONE." That is NOT the same as "I'm not hanging out with you PERIOD, because I'm not comfortable around you."

Where is an ultimatum and where, in God's name, did she break contact? I did not get that impression, beyond maybe Ex jumping from "I don't want to hang out with you one-on-on" to thinking that means "She no longer wants to be my friend despite me working SO hard on it". Two VERY different things.


Mar (mind if I shorten it?), is there any possible other social fall out that can occur via mutual friends? If not, it's up to you. I'd still lean towards advising "no" for your own mental wellbeing, unless you don't think it would cause an issue.

The only remaining thing...would you see this as "revenge" of sorts?

[Coidzor]

We don't know that for certain. From what it sounds like, the fight may have occurred when Extinguisher took it too personally before she ever got a chance to work around this problem.

Hmm, maybe I am jumping to conclusions then. From what I read and interpreted of it, that's how things had gone down, hence why I found her behavior a bit odd that she didn't suggest something more social off the bat.