Keychain of Creation IV: The Lore Thing

[Mr.Bookworm]

I like to read setting books like I read Prince of Amber. Who said the narrator only speak the truth and/or objectively ? It's particularly apparent in Infernal, where Yozi Charms are extensively described as "evil", when they are quite neutral in fact (or jerk neutral, for the Ebon Dragon's).
And saying "the Lunar Elders exaggerate their rancour towards FA Solars" seems better than "the author didn't do his job right".

Did you read the entire Infernals book?

The Yozis are evil. Flat-out. They may have a legitimate grievance, from a certain viewpoint, but the Yozis are Evil with a capital E, for pretty much every definition of evil ever. Every single one of them is a broken, twisted, insane monster.

Malfeas is an impotent, omniloathing shell of his former glory, who would slaughter everything if he could.

The world as Cecelyne would make it is a cruel place where the strong rule the weak, and Cecelyne is the strongest of them all.

She Who Lives In Her Name would see free will severed from the world. She perpetrated one of the most petty, selfish, destructive acts ever when she smashed 3 of her spheres, destroying entire concepts from Creation.

Adorjan is simply a killer. That's all she does. Kills, leaving silence in her wake. She exists for nothing else.

The Ebon Dragon is the worst of them all. He is a being who can quite literally not comprehend virtue. He is, quite literally, the embodiment of selfishness, lies, and all other dickery. He is the closest thing the Exalted setting has to a God of Evil.

The Yozis, again, are evil. There's a reason the place they live in is called Hell.

Now, this is not to say that Green Sun Princes, or even the component souls of the Yozis are evil. Most or many are, but they ultimately have free will, and thus can choose to be good. Akuma cannot, however, because the ultimately lack free will. They sold their soul to a Devil, and there's no turning back.

[/rant]

Er, sorry. I've always found attempts to defend the Yozis rather aggravating. Take a look at Lillun, for all the reasons you need. And I'm sure someone disagrees with me, so feel free to argue with me.

On the subject of the actual comic, I don't think he's going to tell Secret about the whole "redemption" thing. That doesn't exactly strike me as the sort of thing that would be floating around the Underworld.

[Skycroft]

Really? I've been interpreting it in such a way that if you had a perfect with the Valor flaw, for example, and you didn't charge into battle, you wound up denying yourself the perfect for the rest of the scene. Am I wrong in this?

If you have used a PD with the valor flaw, you have to move towards the enemy for two actions as long as it is possible without magic. The situation you describe is simply not possible under the rules of the game.

Edit:

On the subject of the actual comic, I don't think he's going to tell Secret about the whole "redemption" thing. That doesn't exactly strike me as the sort of thing that would be floating around the Underworld.

We are five years after canon. It is possible that an Abyssal has been redeemed in the intervening time and rumors about him are floating about the underworld. Or, y'know, we could just wait till Monday to find out.

On a side note, I remember hearing somewhere that Abyssals instinctively know that redemption is possible (not easy, by any means, but possible) as a side effect of their Exaltation. Its the effect of the little core of a Solar shard that still remains in them. Am I wrong? If not, where did I hear this?

[Tavar]

Did you read the entire Infernals book?

Considering he's talking about the charms, and not the Yozi themselves, I'm not sure what your arguing against here.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Considering he's talking about the charms, and not the Yozi themselves, I'm not sure what your arguing against here.

They are literally the same thing. Yozis are made out of charms.

Though yes, I did miss the point slightly, and for that I apologize, but it still stands.

[The Rose Dragon]

On a side note, I remember hearing somewhere that Abyssals instinctively know that redemption is possible (not easy, by any means, but possible) as a side effect of their Exaltation. Its the effect of the little core of a Solar shard that still remains in them. Am I wrong? If not, where did I hear this?

It's in the Storyteller's Companion. A lot of tiny details can be found there, which no one seems to have read and those who have abhor it on the grounds of Mandate of Heaven.

Actually, most of the Flaws of Invulnerability let you use your defense freely. Only in a few circumstances do they prevent the defense from activating (Compassion Flaw and theoretically the Conviction Flaw). Two of the Flaws just impose specific behaviors upon your character afterwards (standing still for Temperance or charging into battle for Valor).

The Compassion flaw, as written for Celestial Exalted, is a horrible, horrible flaw, since it does nothing to define what "cares about" means, and specifically does not use the game term Intimacy, which is used for the Abyssal version of the Flaw.

So, if you have the Compassion flaw, you can state anything handy as something you care about and use the perfect defense without an effective flaw at all. I usually house rule that part to only include Intimacies and Motivation-related objects.

[Tavar]

They are literally the same thing. Yozis are made out of charms.

Though yes, I did miss the point slightly, and for that I apologize, but it still stands.

Not slightly. You agree with his point, that the charms can be used for non-evil, non-Yozi glorifying ends. Yet you then rant at him for saying it.

[golentan]

That depends on which part of the rules you read. One chapter says all Akuma can cast Solar Circle Sorcery, while another says being Akumatized only lets you go up one step. I favor the "only up one" interpretation, as otherwise the Third Circle Demons should have been seen in Creation a LOT more.

I do that too for the most part. But it still lets you hit the players (relatively) regularly with celestial circle (by dragon bloods) or solar (by any other celestial exalt). Which is what I meant to say with "Celestial or solar circle."

Also, I just noticed that Robo-Cancer is contagious to other types of critters. How hilarious would it be to sic a Gremlin on an Infernal with the charm that inflicts Robo-Cancer, then have the infernal learn the gremlin syndrome charmset?

In the home of Malfeas:
*Phone Rings*
Malfeas: ...ing damn little... Always when I'm in the shower! Hello? You have two seconds before I reach through the earpiece and tear out your spine.
Autocthon: Hey, bro. How's it going.
Malfeas: Freakin *******! Haven't you done enough to me?
Autocthon: Yeah, that's actually why I called. Hey, you remember you used to make fun of me for being sick? It was really funny, you said. Lots of laughter, good times, right?
Malfeas: So what, *********?
Autocthon: Well, it seemed to me you probably don't have a lot of humor down there nowadays...
Malfeas: No.
Autocthon: So I figured, since I've forgiven you...
Malfeas: NO.
Autocthon: I'd share a joke I heard. Cheer you up, give you something to laugh about.
Malfeas: NO!
Autocthon: Check your charmset, ****er. Have a nice few eons.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Not slightly. You agree with his point, that the charms can be used for non-evil, non-Yozi glorifying ends. Yet you then rant at him for saying it.

...Good point.

Er.

*Avoidance Kata*

EDIT:

*stuff*

Doesn't work, actually. You're giving them Gremlin Syndrome, a mutation, not a charm. Even if it was a charm, it still wouldn't be a branch off of one of the Yozi charm trees, and they wouldn't learn it.

It's brought up in one of the sidebars, and the only possible way an Infernal could spread Autochthon's sickness is if they somehow gained him as a patron, and gained access to his native Charm set, which even the Alchemicals don't have. Even then, I'm not sure how you'd give it to the Yozis.

...Though it is mentioned that if one of the Infernals caught Gremlin Syndrome, the Yozis would pretty much try to kill them the second they learned about it. Paranoia, and all that.

[Tavar]

...Good point.

Er.

*Avoidance Kata*

Hmm...What where we talking about again? I can't seem to remember.

[golentan]

...Good point.

Er.

*Avoidance Kata*

EDIT:

Doesn't work, actually. You're giving them Gremlin Syndrome, a mutation, not a charm. Even if it was a charm, it still wouldn't be a branch off of one of the Yozi charm trees, and they wouldn't learn it.

It's brought up in one of the sidebars, and the only possible way an Infernal could spread Autochthon's sickness is if they somehow gained him as a patron, and gained access to his native Charm set, which even the Alchemicals don't have. Even then, I'm not sure how you'd give it to the Yozis.

...Though it is mentioned that if one of the Infernals caught Gremlin Syndrome, the Yozis would pretty much try to kill them the second they learned about it. Paranoia, and all that.

Fiends can learn charms from other types of being through their anima power.

Charms learned or developed by GSPs enter the charm set of a yozi who has granted them charms.

???

PROFIT!!!

[Kyeudo]

I'd like to point out that from the Yozi's point of view, Creation's rebellion is like a gardener planting a nice garden, then suddenly have the trees gut him and turn his skin into a tent just because they didn't like the way he was pruning them.

[The Rose Dragon]

Charms learned or developed by GSPs enter the charm set of a yozi who has granted them charms.

Developed as part of that Yozi's Charm set. The Fiend power does not allow you to simply transplant a Charm into another Yozi's Charm set.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Fiends can learn charms from other types of being through their anima power.

Charms learned or developed by GSPs enter the charm set of a yozi who has granted them charms.

???

PROFIT!!!

What TRD said.

Even if the Ebon Dragon did learn stuff his Fiends learned, he still wouldn't catch it. The charms of the Alchemicals (including Voidtech) are not the charms of Autochthon.

[Green Bean]

I imagine SWLIHN's anti-shaping and sickness Charms would cut down on a lot of the really horrendous side effects that Gremlin Syndrome would have on an Infernal.

[Recaiden]

I'd like to point out that from the Yozi's point of view, Creation's rebellion is like a gardener planting a nice garden, then suddenly have the trees gut him and turn his skin into a tent just because they didn't like the way he was pruning them.

Might I suggest that if you're making your trees want to kill you, then you are a bad gardener.

[The Rose Dragon]

Might I suggest that if you're making your trees want to kill you, then you are a bad gardener.

On the contrary, if you get your trees to somehow actually kill you, or even want to kill you, you are an excellent gardener. Considering trees aren't even sentient, let alone sapient.

[Recaiden]

On the contrary, if you get your trees to somehow actually kill you, or even want to kill you, you are an excellent gardener. Considering trees aren't even sentient, let alone sapient.

Technically excellent yes, because you're doing impossible things.
But the garden, is trying to kill you. And that's not really a good garden.

[The Rose Dragon]

Technically excellent yes, because you're doing impossible things.
But the garden, is trying to kill you. And that's not really a good garden.

The garden is trying to kill you because they don't see the glory of what you're doing with them. You're an artist, dammit! They just can't appreciate the beauty of the world with their limited, non-transcendental vision.

Joking aside, the garden is trying to kill you because they envy the awesome home theater system you have inside.

[Recaiden]

The garden is trying to kill you because they don't see the glory of what you're doing with them. You're an artist, dammit! They just can't appreciate the beauty of the world with their limited, non-transcendental vision.

Joking aside, the garden is trying to kill you because they envy the awesome home theater system you have inside.

But wouldn't the trees appreciate the home theatre more? And take better care of the pet fish?

[The Rose Dragon]

But wouldn't the trees appreciate the home theatre more? And take better care of the pet fish?

You do notice that they are trees. They don't exactly have eyes or ears to appreciate what is essentially a audio-visual medium.

[Recaiden]

You do notice that they are trees. They don't exactly have eyes or ears to appreciate what is essentially a audio-visual medium.

You do notice that this is a metaphor. Besides, I think it's the lack of a nervous system that will really hold them back.

[The Rose Dragon]

You do notice that this is a metaphor.

...what is a metaphor?

I think I kinda lost the metaphor when you mentioned a pet fish. I was with you until that point.

[Recaiden]

...what is a metaphor?

I think I kinda lost the metaphor when you mentioned a pet fish. I was with you until that point.

The fish represent the mortals, of course.

[The Glyphstone]

A meta for what?

[The Rose Dragon]

The fish represent the mortals, of course.

The mortals are part of the garden. Also, no, evidently, they couldn't.

[The Bushranger]

A meta for what?

"I've got a pretty good immune system..."

Oh wait, wrong webcomic.

[Recaiden]

The mortals are part of the garden. Also, no, evidently, they couldn't.

Well, it's evident now. But it wasn't back then.

A metaphor for the Primordial War.

[golentan]

Joking aside, the garden is trying to kill you because they envy the awesome home theater system you have inside.

Vegetables deserve a chance to be couch potatoes too!

[RedScholarGypsy]

...what is a metaphor?

It's for cows to graze in.

[Jukashi]

I wouldn't really call the Yozis evil. They don't have any choice. Any capacity for choice they did have was stripped out of them by the Exalted at the end of the war. It's like a guy who's been brain damaged, and now he has absolutely no control over his temper. He gets angry all the time, and hurts people, but it's not his fault. It's not just that the Ebon Dragon, for example, doesn't comprehend virtue as relates to himself; he literally can't, not ever.

In retrospect, I think the whole deal with turning the primordials into yozis is a bit like if you somehow turned Batman into the Joker, so that you could stick him in Arkham, and then you heave a sigh of relief and go back home because you're safe forever.