Underwater D&D 3.5

[Aeolius]

and a bit of inspiration: City in the Sea
(Vincent Price starring in War-Gods of the Deep)

I used the above-mentioned movie, inspired by Poe's "City in the Sea", as my own inspiration for the region my players are now exploring. The Sinking Isle is nestled beneath the Solnor Ocean on Oerth, the World of Greyhawk.

In the last session, the party found themselves in air-filled caves within a kraken's lair. Though the beast is long dead, the cavern is populated with the former slaves upon whom the kraken, a fleshwarper, experimented with sahuagin grafts upon his unwilling subjects.

The campaign has been running for over three years, now. The party has long known that their nemesis, a hag-like creature who called herself the blackwater hag (thank you, Stormwrack), desired to awaken three ancient sites which would in turn summon three extra-planar maelstroms - draining the waters from the sea itself.

What the party never knew or questioned was why.

Within the next few sessions they will learn their answer. They will learn of faraway worlds, demon lords, and elemental princes. They will hear tales of the Blue Coven and twin terrors.

Yes, I'm having fun. ;)

[Dazdya]

I quite like some of these ideas. However, it doesn't solve the question of whether Freshwater creatures are enemies of the seawater creatures, or whether they are just second-class citizens. You have brought up things which are points for both sides.

That is exactly my point, though I could have stated it more clearly. A good history is always more complicated that a simple friend/enemy switch.

If we take, for example, the American civil war, we can see that there were many underlying factors that influenced people's views on the matter. In the end, it led to war, but families were on both sides, there was the slavery issue, and with the European connections, it was all a giant mess.

So if we take the "gods cursed the landdwellers" idea for a moment, it wouldn't provide a clear answer so much as a background for history, an environment for your npc's to fall back on. In different areas, this would be dealt with in different ways. Voila, instant cultural differences, with a reason.

I am sorry if I preach too much. I have to stop myself from lecturing sometimes. :P

[Aeolius]

If you are going to involve both saltwater and freshies, you might do well to develop the brackish regions where both may be encountered simultaneously. Of course there are exceptions; the salmon swimming upstream, the bull shark that is encountered hundreds of miles upriver, and so on.

When one has saltwater aquariums, it used to be common to subject new acquisitions to a "freshwater dip" - placing the fish in freshwater would kill smaller parasites beneath the scales. Granted, too much time in freshwater will kill a saltie. The reverse is also true.

Maintaining proper salinity can also be a problem. Creatures trapped in tide pools, for example, must tolerate extremes in temperature and salinity as the sun evaporates the water in the pool.

[Dazdya]

Those are interesting new concepts, thank you. The freshwater dip sounds interesting, it might even have religious connotations for intelligent seapeople. How else would they cure diseases and curses?

[Aeolius]

The freshwater dip sounds interesting, it might even have religious connotations for intelligent seapeople. How else would they cure diseases and curses?

You could also incorporate dead water , red tides , and sea sparkle for unusual effects of substances in seawater.

[Zolkabro]

Dayzda and Aolius have brought up some very good ideas that I would like to include. I especially love the idea that having a freshwater dip is a religous purification kind of thing.

Also, Debihuman, am I being crazy when I say that my idea is simple enough? Looking at that big block of text it seems a nightmare, but actually it is very simple. I think that what I need to do is phrase it better. Thank you for your idea, but as I said, I like my current one.

[Aeolius]

...my idea is simple enough... Thank you for your idea, but as I said, I like my current one.

It's a pity that there isn't a more centralized location on the web, for those of us obsessed with subaqueous role-playing. It doesn't matter if you run a face-to-face, chat-based, play-by-post, or VTT - there are ideas that we all could share. Some games could be set on home-brewed Water Worlds, others might use published campaign settings, and others still may use rulesets like GURPS or Blue Planet - undersea campaigns are niche enough already. We should collaborate, somehow.

[Dazdya]

I'm not sure I agree. While it's nice to read ideas of people, for me it was fun considering this fresh, and the discovery of what ideas I like is at least as valuable as the end product.

[Debihuman]

Dayzda and Aolius have brought up some very good ideas that I would like to include. I especially love the idea that having a freshwater dip is a religous purification kind of thing.

Also, Debihuman, am I being crazy when I say that my idea is simple enough? Looking at that big block of text it seems a nightmare, but actually it is very simple. I think that what I need to do is phrase it better. Thank you for your idea, but as I said, I like my current one.

Here's the thing: combat won't last in minutes and it is a nightmare for a DM to keep track of. An average combat should last 4-6 rounds. If it is lasting much longer then the party is using too many resources and the CR is too low for the party.

How long does the light last? It sounds like it a permanent light. So having to make a Will save with a d% every round minus the amount of squares is far too complicated with a DM having to keep track every round (when PCs can move in 3 dimensions).

Keeping the check to moving 20 feet closer makes it 6 checks (at 100 ft., at 80 ft., at 60 ft., etc.) as opposed to them moving and having to remember d%-squares. It is far easier to keep track of distance rather than time because of the additional up and down movement. Granted I did not define how the target moves closer but it could be maximum distance closer and that would depend on Swim speed.

Your way, if the PCs are 100 feet from the creature for one round they have a 99% chance of success (or 1% since I'm not sure it is worded properly).

Anything that is easier for the DM to use is better. Monsters are fun to kill but should also be fun to run. Having to make a check every round in addition to the other things the DM has to keep track of is not fun for the DM.

Here is the updated Lure:

Lure (Ex): The dire anglerfish has a bioluminescent lure dangling from a stalk coming out of its skull, which hangs in the square adjacent to the front of the dire anglerfish. It shines light in a 100 ft. cone. All living things in this cone must make a Will saving throw (DC 22) or be compelled to move their maximum movement toward the light. For every 20 feet closer to the anglerfish that a target is, another Will saving throw is made with the DC increasing by +2 until the target is in the same square as the lure. The save is Constitution-based.

Creatures in the square with the lure make a Reflex save (DC 22) every round to avoid the poison that drips from the lure. If they fail, they are poisoned and take 1 point of Strength damage. They also have to make a Reflex save (DC 22) to avoid touching the lure. The saves are Constitution based. Dire anglerfish are immune to their own poison and the poison of other dire anglerfish.

Touching the lure allows the dire anglerfish to make a bite attack as an Attack of Opportunity. The dire anglerfish can still make this Attack of Opportunity even when flat-footed.

Last of all, the dire anglerfish can make a Hide check to conceal itself behind its own lure.

Anyhow, however you decide to make the checks, just keep the poor DM in mind.

Next up will be the Dire Carp (but I'll put it in a new post since this one is getting crowded).

Debby

[Zolkabro]

Uh... Debihuman? When is that Dire Carp critique appearing? It's been three days.

[Deathanyl]

How long does the light last? It sounds like it a permanent light. So having to make a Will save with a d% every round minus the amount of squares is far too complicated with a DM having to keep track every round (when PCs can move in 3 dimensions).


Your way, if the PCs are 100 feet from the creature for one round they have a 99% chance of success (or 1% since I'm not sure it is worded properly).

Anything that is easier for the DM to use is better. Monsters are fun to kill but should also be fun to run. Having to make a check every round in addition to the other things the DM has to keep track of is not fun for the DM.



Anyhow, however you decide to make the checks, just keep the poor DM in mind.

Next up will be the Dire Carp (but I'll put it in a new post since this one is getting crowded).

Debby

I hear here with too much DM-rolling, Have any of you checked out automated rollers and DM tools? I use them all the time but I'm also a non modular buyer so for custom games it takes 90% of the work out of it, land or sea it makes a DM 's job much easier if one is freelancing or playing a mod. I know of a few sites with online rollers for every thing from poof! NPC generators to Instant shops or treasure hordes, saves plenty of time, Ask me for a link and i'll give one not sure it posting one breaks the rules i'm a newbie here.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I posted some underwater races a while back, to replace the standard humans/dwarves/elves setup you see in most settings.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...derwater+races

I haven't gotten around to writing about the actual setting yet, though.

[Debihuman]

Sorry about not getting back to this thread for a while. My mother died recently and yesterday was the interment. I'm okay and ready to get back to some PEACHing.

Dire Carp

Grapple is +3 not +6. (BAB + special size modifier + Strength modifier +6,-4, +1)

Speed -- why does it have a land speed at all?
Speed: Swim 40 ft.

How is it getting x4 on critical hits? The threat range is missing.

Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20)
Full Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20) and tail slap +3 melee (1d2+1)

Special Qualities: it should have low-light vision since all Animals have this unless there is a special reason why it shouldn't.

It has 11 skill points. I have no idea how you assigned the skill points. It could have one skill at max ranks. Creatures with a Swim speed can take 10 on Swim checks see below. Does it have any racial bonuses? I'd give it a +4 racial bonus to Jump.

It should have the following skills section:

Skills: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.

Debby

[Aeolius]

Sorry about not getting back to this thread for a while. My mother died recently and yesterday was the interment.

My condolences for your loss.

Tonight is game night! While I realize that an undersea mid-level World of Greyhawk chat-based game run at 9pm Eastern isn't everyone's cup of tea, I thought I would invite you to read the weekly recap I post in the weekly blog . In addition to recapping the prior week's adventure I also post topical undersea news and trivia, discuss an unusual beastie or two, and rant about all things aquatic.

[Aeolius]

...for me it was fun considering this fresh, and the discovery of what ideas I like is at least as valuable as the end product.

I understand entirely. I still flip through the pages of OCEAN from time to time, or watch an episode of Blue Planet , finding gems to incorporate into my game.

Still, I have considered establishing a weekly chat, via IRC or mibbit, for those interested in undersea adventures of all kinds to drop by, share ideas, discuss topical events, and explore a discovery or two (I'm till geeking out about an image I found of a fish entrapped within an oyster then entombed within a blister pearl, which I discussed at Canonfire ). Thursday nights work for everyone? :)

[Zolkabro]

I understand entirely. I still flip through the pages of OCEAN from time to time, or watch an episode of Blue Planet , finding gems to incorporate into my game.

Still, I have considered establishing a weekly chat, via IRC or mibbit, for those interested in undersea adventures of all kinds to drop by, share ideas, discuss topical events, and explore a discovery or two (I'm till geeking out about an image I found of a fish entrapped within an oyster then entombed within a blister pearl, which I discussed at Canonfire ). Thursday nights work for everyone? :)

I'm afraid that Thurdays don't work for me, but that does sound like a very good idea.

Sorry about not getting back to this thread for a while. My mother died recently and yesterday was the interment. I'm okay and ready to get back to some PEACHing.

Dire Carp

Grapple is +3 not +6. (BAB + special size modifier + Strength modifier +6,-4, +1)

Speed -- why does it have a land speed at all?
Speed: Swim 40 ft.

How is it getting x4 on critical hits? The threat range is missing.

Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20)
Full Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20) and tail slap +3 melee (1d2+1)

Special Qualities: it should have low-light vision since all Animals have this unless there is a special reason why it shouldn't.

It has 11 skill points. I have no idea how you assigned the skill points. It could have one skill at max ranks. Creatures with a Swim speed can take 10 on Swim checks see below. Does it have any racial bonuses? I'd give it a +4 racial bonus to Jump.

It should have the following skills section:

Skills: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.

Debby

First of all, I am sorry for your loss, and my apologies for nagging. I hope you and your relatives recover soon. I have been lucky enough never to have to go through losing a relative (except for as a baby), but I know from friends how hard it is and I completely understand if it means you have little time to help me. Don't feel under pressure.
Secondly, I am under time pressure right now and am not able to sort out Dire Carp, but I will as soon as I can. Thank you.

[Zolkabro]

Sorry about not getting back to this thread for a while. My mother died recently and yesterday was the interment. I'm okay and ready to get back to some PEACHing.

Dire Carp

Grapple is +3 not +6. (BAB + special size modifier + Strength modifier +6,-4, +1)

Speed -- why does it have a land speed at all?
Speed: Swim 40 ft.

How is it getting x4 on critical hits? The threat range is missing.

Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20)
Full Attack: Bite: +8 melee (1d6+1/17-20) and tail slap +3 melee (1d2+1)

Special Qualities: it should have low-light vision since all Animals have this unless there is a special reason why it shouldn't.

It has 11 skill points. I have no idea how you assigned the skill points. It could have one skill at max ranks. Creatures with a Swim speed can take 10 on Swim checks see below. Does it have any racial bonuses? I'd give it a +4 racial bonus to Jump.

It should have the following skills section:

Skills: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.

Debby

I've done the editing. Very sorry it took so long, things have been busy these past few days.
Also, seeing as everything has a swim speed, I've been treating that entry in the skills section as default and haven't really bothered to note it down in things.
Thanks!
Any other things you want to point out, or shall we move on to the environment?

Also, the environment itself is the bit I've never homebrewed one before, so I'm a little unsure as to what exactly needs to be written. Is there a template on the forums?

[Dazdya]

About designing environments, here's my rules (actually, the rules are about preparing in general):

1 - remember it's a game, so design for your players.
2 - don't prepare more than you need.
3 - whenever you design something, design a secret.

Rule 1 reminds me that a setting might be wonderful to me, but it needs to be played in. That means I need to leave room for the players to make their mark. Maybe a player would like to introduce a certain religion, or wants to put their mark on underwater farming, who knows, players are unpredictable. Leave them gaps that you can fill with adventure.

Rule 2 is almost an extension, but it's more practical. I have practised various approaches to preparation over the years, and most of those have left stacks of notes unused. But once you set a part of the setting in concrete, on paper or only in your head, you can get fixated on it. In the beginning of the campaign, make sure you give your players time to breathe it in a bit. It could give you the feedback to finetune your idea before the concrete sets.

Rule 3 is something I think I saw in a magazine somewhere, and it works well. If you want to make sure you remember (for instance) your innkeeper, give him a little story. He could be quite secretive because he has a son in the basement who is a werecreature of some sort, or maybe that is in the past. This little story doesn't automatically create more adventure, but whenever you need that npc, your mind often 'snaps' back to the story behind him. Knowing his background often helps you remember what voice you used, or other little details. Human brains suck at remembering details unless we have a little stoy to link them. This method works for me in memorizing npc's, places, artefacts, religions, and for most other things.

By now I realise that I have never answered your question about the environment. Silly me.

If I would do this (so feel free to ignore), I would suggest placing the characters in a scene before their creation. For instance, several coral fields have recently been laid bare in this outpost the characters are in, so that the shepherds of sillyfish herds have been forced to take them lower, to darker areas with more predators.
This little scene gives loads of options without being specific. Your players can decide how their characters got there, or they can pick skills to hunt sillyfish-eating predators. Maybe they're from a line of shepherds themselves. They can immediately place them into the environment (rule 1), you can have instant adventures examining the bare coral, or protection the herds, without you needing loads of background (rule 2), and only you know that the darkshark king has bribed an npc to destroy the fields, in order to lure the sillyfish to darker waters.

Ok, maybe the names are too silly. :P

And maybe I still haven't answered your question. Please let us know if this is what you were asking. :)

[Zolkabro]

About designing environments, here's my rules (actually, the rules are about preparing in general):

1 - remember it's a game, so design for your players.
2 - don't prepare more than you need.
3 - whenever you design something, design a secret.

Rule 1 reminds me that a setting might be wonderful to me, but it needs to be played in. That means I need to leave room for the players to make their mark. Maybe a player would like to introduce a certain religion, or wants to put their mark on underwater farming, who knows, players are unpredictable. Leave them gaps that you can fill with adventure.

Rule 2 is almost an extension, but it's more practical. I have practised various approaches to preparation over the years, and most of those have left stacks of notes unused. But once you set a part of the setting in concrete, on paper or only in your head, you can get fixated on it. In the beginning of the campaign, make sure you give your players time to breathe it in a bit. It could give you the feedback to finetune your idea before the concrete sets.

Rule 3 is something I think I saw in a magazine somewhere, and it works well. If you want to make sure you remember (for instance) your innkeeper, give him a little story. He could be quite secretive because he has a son in the basement who is a werecreature of some sort, or maybe that is in the past. This little story doesn't automatically create more adventure, but whenever you need that npc, your mind often 'snaps' back to the story behind him. Knowing his background often helps you remember what voice you used, or other little details. Human brains suck at remembering details unless we have a little stoy to link them. This method works for me in memorizing npc's, places, artefacts, religions, and for most other things.

By now I realise that I have never answered your question about the environment. Silly me.

If I would do this (so feel free to ignore), I would suggest placing the characters in a scene before their creation. For instance, several coral fields have recently been laid bare in this outpost the characters are in, so that the shepherds of sillyfish herds have been forced to take them lower, to darker areas with more predators.
This little scene gives loads of options without being specific. Your players can decide how their characters got there, or they can pick skills to hunt sillyfish-eating predators. Maybe they're from a line of shepherds themselves. They can immediately place them into the environment (rule 1), you can have instant adventures examining the bare coral, or protection the herds, without you needing loads of background (rule 2), and only you know that the darkshark king has bribed an npc to destroy the fields, in order to lure the sillyfish to darker waters.

Ok, maybe the names are too silly. :P

And maybe I still haven't answered your question. Please let us know if this is what you were asking. :)

What you said is useful, but it hasn't exactly answered my question.

Let me word it a little differently:
I am now starting to design the environment. How do I set out the information, and where do I start?

Also, does anyone know a mac-friendly application good for drawing maps? I would like to create a large map of the ocean when we have finished working out what is where.

[Zolkabro]

I personally use a wiki set up, though that doesn't necessarily mean a wiki per say. Make a folder on your computer, work on individual files that address small portions of setting as you see fit, and fit them together later.

Concerning the map, I use inkscape. I'm not a very good artist by any stretch of the imagination, but with a mere 10 minutes I can get something like this:

Spoiler

Show

I use inkscape regularly, and have been using it for a long time. I love drawing on it, and I am sure I would be able to produce a map lke the one you have produced, a bird's eye view with borderlines marked in.

But I was asking for an application designed for making proper maps, Odinance Survey style.

[Knaight]

But I was asking for an application designed for making proper maps, Odinance Survey style.

What is your budget for this? Similarly, a general picture of the specific kind of map you want to imitate would be helpful -though I imagine you could manage most of them in a generic drawing program of some sort-

[Zolkabro]

What is your budget for this? Similarly, a general picture of the specific kind of map you want to imitate would be helpful -though I imagine you could manage most of them in a generic drawing program of some sort-

My budget is as low as possible, and the kind of map I mean is like a map you might find in an Ordinance Survey mapbook. Non-British people won't know what that is, so just google it.
I mean kind of professional, proper maps. I'm doing a really bad job of explaining it, but I mean that I want to do a proper map, not just a picture.
Does that make sense?

[Knaight]

My budget is as low as possible, and the kind of map I mean is like a map you might find in an Ordinance Survey mapbook. Non-British people won't know what that is, so just google it.
I mean kind of professional, proper maps. I'm doing a really bad job of explaining it, but I mean that I want to do a proper map, not just a picture.
Does that make sense?

I know you mean proper map and not just a picture. That leaves out a bunch of data. Does elevation need to show up (a quick google image search makes it appear to be a no, but I may have just been looking at a very flat area), is there any data on climate indicated on these maps or just terrain, etc.

[Aeolius]

Also, does anyone know a mac-friendly application good for drawing maps? ... an application designed for making proper maps, Odinance Survey style.

A bit of googling turned up Ortelius

[Hyudra]

A source of inspiration might include the indie game Aquaria. Kind of a (as a youtube commenter puts it) like a mix between Ecco the Dolphin and Zelda.

The environments are beautiful, and it really goes to show just how alien the deep sea can be.

A Let's Play of the game starts here, for those who are curious but don't wish to purchase it: Link

[Aeolius]

A source of inspiration might include the indie game Aquaria...The environments are beautiful, and it really goes to show just how alien the deep sea can be.

The soundtrack is wonderful, as well.

[Dazdya]

There is of course always Pro Fantasy's Campaign cartographer.

[Aeolius]

There is of course always Pro Fantasy's Campaign cartographer.

Which, as it requires Windows, is not Mac-friendly.

[Zolkabro]

A bit of googling turned up Ortelius

Ortelius seems perfect. I'll experiment with it and see if it is what I wanted.
I think that seeing as it costs $100, I'm not going to buy the full version. Annoying though they are, a watermark is no big problem.

So, what shall we do first, mechanics of the environment, fluff and history, or geography?
I would like to do the last two first, but if anyone thinks that is a bad order to do it in just say. EDIT: Actually, I would definitely prefer to do the geography first, because it is hard to work out the history and culture of countries that don't exist yet.

[Aeolius]

Actually, I would definitely prefer to do the geography first, because it is hard to work out the history and culture of countries that don't exist yet.

That's one reason I've used the World of Greyhawk for my campaign setting of choice, for all of my online games (save for one set in Hades) since 1995. I can utilize the maps, history, climate, politics, religion, and sites of interest as a springboard. Mind you, not a lot has been written about the undersea realms, which is just as I like it.

Granted the Sinking Isle, Turucambi Reef, and Jungle of Lost ships are all canon Greyhawk references - but I put my own unique spin on them all.