GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III

[Morph Bark]

Basically, they're the kids with the magnifying glass and humans are the ants.

Humans don't generally see killing ants as evil either (exceptions, as in extreme Buddhism, exist).

[Vaynor]

Ok my entry is up, any thoughts/critiques?

The Llawfeddyg

All images/quotes are by Clive Barker. I thought his work to be quite suitable for a contest on the unnatural.

[Debihuman]

As neither the Thoughtswimmer nor Eye Demon are complete as yet, I'll only critique the llawfeddyg.

I am not entirely liking this so I'll try to be as fair as possible. My initial dislike probably stems from the fact that you persist in loading it with skills. You start with Int 23, which is on the high side, but then you dump more bonuses with the special abilities. This would befit a creature of much higher HD.

For 9 HD you can only have a rank 12 Max in each skill. It is an Aberration so it gets skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. It has an Int of 23, which gives it a Int modifier of +6 so it should have 96 skill points.

If you give out max ranks for the skills it should have 8 skills. I'd recommend that you pick 8 skills and stick with those as its class skills. As it stands it has 23 different skills which is far too many. Not even demons have that many.

If you want to add bonuses from special abilities, then you should make them relevant to the skills it would have. If you want to give it more skills, then increase the number of Hit Dice.

Another thing you do that I find distracting is that you overload the special ability with a lot of things it does. Pick one.

Anatomical Prodigy allows you to spot weakness so that you gain an Insight bonus to attack and damage equal to Intelligence modifier. That is really sufficient for this ability. Then you go on to add the modifier to AC. That should be a separate special ability but I can buy that. But then you add that it gets an Insight bonus to Heal as well. That's three for the price of one--especially since it gets skill bonuses from Surgical Modifications. I'm calling shenanigans on the last bit.

Surgical Modifications simply does far too much under the umbrella of one special ability, especially since it nearly triples the skills this creature would have. Then you add things like not needing to breathe, eat, sleep. It doesn't age. It has fast healing 5 AND it gains bonuses to 2 Saves. Whew. I'm exhausted just reading it. It's just bloated with advantages.

CR is way too low for the number of advantages this has. It is more like a CR 13 creature and that means it needs more HD. It should probably have 15 HD and the special abilities should be broken down to manageable parts.

Finally, it has a unique weapon with lots of bells and whistles. It should be listed separately in the treasure. Should be double standard and +1 adamantine scalpel. BTW, what would be the cost of such a weapon?

Grapple and reach should be listed with the tentacle in parentheses.

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 feet with tentacle)

Debby

[Vaynor]

I am not entirely liking this so I'll try to be as fair as possible. My initial dislike probably stems from the fact that you persist in loading it with skills. You start with Int 23, which is on the high side, but then you dump more bonuses with the special abilities. This would befit a creature of much higher HD.

For 9 HD you can only have a rank 12 Max in each skill. It is an Aberration so it gets skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. It has an Int of 23, which gives it a Int modifier of +6 so it should have 96 skill points.

If you give out max ranks for the skills it should have 8 skills. I'd recommend that you pick 8 skills and stick with those as its class skills. As it stands it has 23 different skills which is far too many. Not even demons have that many.

If you want to add bonuses from special abilities, then you should make them relevant to the skills it would have. If you want to give it more skills, then increase the number of Hit Dice.

The number of skills it has is solely due to the bonuses from Surgical Modifications. A DM might forget that they get a bonus to say, Jump, and use only their Strength modifier as they have no ranks in it. For almost all of the ranks (don't want to say all as I'm not sure if I gave a point or two to these skills) are to given to skills not increased by Surgical Modifications. I used exactly 96 skill points. Is there some kind of limit to the amount of class skills a homebrew monster can have that I'm missing?

Another thing you do that I find distracting is that you overload the special ability with a lot of things it does. Pick one.

Is this because you find it hard to read the ability if it grants too many bonuses? I put them all in one ability because they all come about for the same reason, e.g. all benefits from Anatomical Prodigy are there because of it being an anatomical prodigy. Splitting them into different abilities seems silly, although I guess I could see your point if it made it hard to read the abilities, but they're really not that long.

Anatomical Prodigy allows you to spot weakness so that you gain an Insight bonus to attack and damage equal to Intelligence modifier. That is really sufficient for this ability. Then you go on to add the modifier to AC. That should be a separate special ability but I can buy that. But then you add that it gets an Insight bonus to Heal as well. That's three for the price of one--especially since it gets skill bonuses from Surgical Modifications. I'm calling shenanigans on the last bit.

Three for the price of one? Are special abilities a limited commodity? I really don't understand why one ability can't be very good instead of having multiple abilities. All of these bonuses are perfectly in line with the fluff for a creature that specializes in knowledge of the anatomy. If you're worried about how this might have affected the CR (I used VT's calculator for this) I gave these abilities more than just 1 point.

Surgical Modifications simply does far too much under the umbrella of one special ability, especially since it nearly triples the skills this creature would have. Then you add things like not needing to breathe, eat, sleep. It doesn't age. It has fast healing 5 AND it gains bonuses to 2 Saves. Whew. I'm exhausted just reading it. It's just bloated with advantages.

Is the ability description simply too long? Would you prefer more line breaks? Breaking these benefits into multiple abilities wouldn't make any sense, they're all a direct result of the surgical modifications a llawfeddyg does to itself.

CR is way too low for the number of advantages this has. It is more like a CR 13 creature and that means it needs more HD. It should probably have 15 HD and the special abilities should be broken down to manageable parts.

Well, I've also gotten complaints that it's not powerful enough for a CR 10. I'll consider adding more HD, however, and increasing the CR. I think you're right that it might better suit this monster.

Finally, it has a unique weapon with lots of bells and whistles. It should be listed separately in the treasure. Should be double standard and +1 adamantine scalpel. BTW, what would be the cost of such a weapon?

The only bell and whistle it gets is the slight bonus to heal checks (which is the same as a masterwork tool, which this counts as). The cost is that of a scalpel (300 gp) + masterwork (300 gp) + magic cost (+1 Wounding: 18,000) = 18,600. I'll add it to the treasure, and will likely change it to standard items.

Grapple and reach should be listed with the tentacle in parentheses.

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 feet with tentacle)

Got it, I'll change it.

[Debihuman]

The number of skills it has is solely due to the bonuses from Surgical Modifications. A DM might forget that they get a bonus to say, Jump, and use only their Strength modifier as they have no ranks in it. For almost all of the ranks (don't want to say all as I'm not sure if I gave a point or two to these skills) are to given to skills not increased by Surgical Modifications. I used exactly 96 skill points. Is there some kind of limit to the amount of class skills a homebrew monster can have that I'm missing?

You probably needed to break it down to show the skill rank, ability modifier and bonus. However, some of the skills aren't all that useful. For example, Use Rope +10 is like to fail against 9th-level PCs who tend to maximize Escape Artist.

Why does it need a Swim skill? It could walk on the bottom of a body of water.

The problem with low ranks and lots of bonuses is that the modifier isn't high enough to make them really make them stand out. It isn't specialized and that's what hurts it.

Here is it's skill set:
Skills: Balance +10, Bluff +17, Climb +7, Disguise +17, Escape Artist +10, Forgery +12, Heal +22, Hide +10, Intimidate +15, Jump +7, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +12, Knowledge (religion) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +12, Listen +15, Move Silently +10, Sleight of Hand +16, Spot +15, Swim +7, Tumble +10, Use Rope +10

The best skill it has is HEAL and it dissects things! How about Profession (Surgeon) or something along those lines?

Is this because you find it hard to read the ability if it grants too many bonuses? I put them all in one ability because they all come about for the same reason, e.g. all benefits from Anatomical Prodigy are there because of it being an anatomical prodigy. Splitting them into different abilities seems silly, although I guess I could see your point if it made it hard to read the abilities, but they're really not that long.

Not at all. It's because each special ability should count for 1 when using things like VT's CR Estimator and when you load a special ability up when it should count for 1, it needs to count for more. Look at the MM and see how many things are listed in a line of Special Ability.

A 9 HD creature should have about 9 Special Abilities (includes Special Qualities and Special Attacks) as a balance issue . While your creature technically falls squarely into that range, the abilities themselves are bloated and should count towards a higher number. It makes judging the CR much more difficult. A 9-HD creature with a CR higher than 9 tends to be easier on the PCs to defeat than a balanced CR 9 creature. Its has fewer hit points and in this case, the skills don't off-set the advantages of the CR.

Furthermore you neglected to explain in a Special Ability why it doesn't breathe, sleep, eat or age. Normally, aberrations do these things. See Type.

Additionally, it can talk and yet is has not mouth. And it can speak all languages with only an Int of 23! That too should be explained in a Special ability.

All these are adding to the CR of the monster but without the HD to shore it up, the PCs are at a significant advantage. At 9th level, cast hold monster and beat on it until dead. Even fast healing 5 won't help it much as it has only 58 hit points.

Three for the price of one? Are special abilities a limited commodity? I really don't understand why one ability can't be very good instead of having multiple abilities. All of these bonuses are perfectly in line with the fluff for a creature that specializes in knowledge of the anatomy. If you're worried about how this might have affected the CR (I used VT's calculator for this) I gave these abilities more than just 1 point.

Because a Special Ability should be a singular thing. If it does more than that it should be broken into more than one thing unless those things are necessarily integrated. An ability that adds skill bonuses is one thing. An ability that adds bonuses to Saves is another thing. An ability that adds a bonus to AC is a third thing. K.I.S.S. principle.

Also your attack lines are wrong: "Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."

Change your attack line to "OR"; and in Full attack apply the -5 penalty to the tentacles.

Is the ability description simply too long? Would you prefer more line breaks? Breaking these benefits into multiple abilities wouldn't make any sense, they're all a direct result of the surgical modifications a llawfeddyg does to itself.

No. However, the name of the special ability should really indicate what it does. How do you gain skills by Surgical Modifications? Perhaps you should explain how it gains those skills in the fluff. It has a speed of 50 but that isn't noted (and that's fast for Medium creature). Again, it doesn't have extra legs or especially long ones or anything in the description that would account for this.

Well, I've also gotten complaints that it's not powerful enough for a CR 10. I'll consider adding more HD, however, and increasing the CR. I think you're right that it might better suit this monster.

I think you are on the right track with this. I just think it needs some tweaking. Like I said, I didn't like it initially but I've listed my complaints to you. All of which are fixable.

The only bell and whistle it gets is the slight bonus to heal checks (which is the same as a masterwork tool, which this counts as). The cost is that of a scalpel (300 gp) + masterwork (300 gp) + magic cost (+1 Wounding: 18,000) = 18,600. I'll add it to the treasure, and will likely change it to standard items.

Sounds good to me.

Got it, I'll change it.

I am looking forward to the changes.

Debby

[Fax Celestis]

You probably needed to break it down to show the skill rank, ability modifier and bonus. However, some of the skills aren't all that useful. For example, Use Rope +10 is like to fail against 9th-level PCs who tend to maximize Escape Artist.

You don't break down skills for monsters. You list any that have ranks or racial/item adjustments: anything unlisted uses the ability mod only.

Why does it need a Swim skill? It could walk on the bottom of a body of water.

Action underwater requires a Swim check.

The best skill it has is HEAL and it dissects things! How about Profession (Surgeon) or something along those lines?

Surgery is generally included within the scope of Heal.

A 9 HD creature should have about 9 Special Abilities (includes Special Qualities and Special Attacks) as a balance issue .

According to...?

Furthermore you neglected to explain in a Special Ability why it doesn't breathe, sleep, eat or age. Normally, aberrations do these things. See Type.

It doesn't need to be. It goes into the creature description, which he did. Example: gargoyle.

Gargoyles often appear to be winged stone statues, for they can perch indefinitely without moving and use this disguise to surprise their foes. They require no food, water, or air, but often eat their fallen foes out of fondness for inflicting pain.

Gargoyles speak Common and Terran.

This is the only reference to eating, drinking, sleeping, or breathing on the monster's entry. And yet!

Traits

A monstrous humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.

Additionally, it can talk and yet is has not mouth. And it can speak all languages with only an Int of 23! That too should be explained in a Special ability.

Why and why? You don't explain how a dragon breathes acid, just that it can. You don't explain how a creature with the Water subtype automatically has a Swim speed, it just does.

Because a Special Ability should be a singular thing. If it does more than that it should be broken into more than one thing unless those things are necessarily integrated. An ability that adds skill bonuses is one thing. An ability that adds bonuses to Saves is another thing. An ability that adds a bonus to AC is a third thing. K.I.S.S. principle.

Why? Many published creatures do not follow this rule.

Change your attack line to "OR"; and in Full attack apply the -5 penalty to the tentacles.

...or include a special ability that gives the creature full attack bonus when attacking with its tentacles even if they're used as secondary weapons and/or allows the creature to attack with its tentacles when making a standard action attack. Voidmind is an example of a template that has a similar function.

No. However, the name of the special ability should really indicate what it does. How do you gain skills by Surgical Modifications? Perhaps you should explain how it gains those skills in the fluff. It has a speed of 50 but that isn't noted (and that's fast for Medium creature). Again, it doesn't have extra legs or especially long ones or anything in the description that would account for this.

It doesn't have to. A choker gets two actions in a turn, but has no fluff reason listed for doing so.

[SlaadLord]

My entry is up, and although I really liked the concept at the time, it occurs to me that it's not very exciting. Can I change my entry?

[Debihuman]

In no particular order:

It doesn't have to. A choker gets two actions in a turn, but has no fluff reason listed for doing so.

Chokers have a special ability called Quickness. The fluff is in there. See this:

Quickness (Su): Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

You don't need to have a Swim skill to take an underwater action. You can intentionally be underwater. See Swim skill.

My reason for 9 HD having about 9 special abilities is strictly for balance. There is no hard and fast rule but overloading on the Special Abilities makes for poor monster design. They have high CR and too low HD. I see it far too often. Also, this point was brought up in the article by Skip Williams How to Design a Monster: Recipes for Disaster. I refer to that article and to the book A Magical Society: Beast Builder published by Expeditious Press. Both of those sources are quite good for figuring out good monster design. It is an approximation but I've found it works really, really well in keeping creatures balanced. Of course, there are exceptions but they are rare. Usually it means a creature doesn't have enough HD for what it does. That means it has low HD, High CR and that gives the advantage to the PCs and more often than not that mean that the party can exploit a creature's weakness and defeat it without using their resources.

However, aberrations do need to breathe, eat and age. If they don't do those things then you need to explain why they don't.

See the gargoyle entry again: they are monstrous humanoids but they appear as statutes which explains why they don't need require food, air or water. Just saying something doesn't do X without grounds for it isn't good design. Even a nod in that direction would help.

Don't compare apples to oranges: when I said,"Additionally, it can talk and yet is has not mouth. And it can speak all languages with only an Int of 23! That too should be explained in a Special ability." You responded with, "Why and why? You don't explain how a dragon breathes acid, just that it can. You don't explain how a creature with the Water subtype automatically has a Swim speed, it just does."

The number of languages a creature gets is based on its Int. How fast it moves is a factor of size, number of legs and design. See Monster Manual page 298 in the chart on the right it shows typical speed.

A creature with no mouth can't speak normally so it needs a simple explanation. Tongues? Telepathy? Ventriloquism from another body part? I'd pretty much take anything but I don't know enough about this creature to make assumptions as to its biology and how it works.

Page 8 in the Draconomicon has a section devoted to exactly how a dragon breathes fire. Granted most monster entries don't have that attention to detail but I know what a dragon is. When you are making a new monster you have throw more at the reader to explain things.

Water type gives you a Swim speed automatically. It is a feature. Getting every language goes even beyond bonus languages. Furthermore, I say shenanigans on getting special languages like Druid. Phooey! Not for a 9 HD monster with an Int of 23. If this were an epic creature, it would make more sense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now onto the False Copse

It is a little bland. For 19 HD, I'm expecting a closer to epic creature than what you present. It should probably have a lower CR.

If a creature has no sense of smell does the Call to Safety still work? DC 19 isn't all that difficult for PCs at level 15 (for example: Fighter gets + 5 plus Wisdom modifier plus other bonuses that at that level he may have)

Fighter 15 Int 14, feat Iron Will has a +9. And he has to be in range. Even if he fails and gets attacked, he'll have enough hit points to survive while the rest of the party wades in to save him.

I have to admit that I'm bored with plant-like monsters that lure you in with a scent a cause you to lie down underneath their branches. It is a bit cliched.

It moves way too slowly to be much of threat. At 20 feet, the PCs can too easily avoid this monster as long as they stay out of range. The creature's range is 100 feet and that can be dealt with composite longbow (range 110 feet).


Debby

[SlaadLord]

It is a little bland. For 19 HD, I'm expecting a closer to epic creature than what you present. It should probably have a lower CR.

If a creature has no sense of smell does the Call to Safety still work? DC 19 isn't all that difficult for PCs at level 15 (for example: Fighter gets + 5 plus Wisdom modifier plus other bonuses that at that level he may have)

Fighter 15 Int 14, feat Iron Will has a +9. And he has to be in range. Even if he fails and gets attacked, he'll have enough hit points to survive while the rest of the party wades in to save him.

I have to admit that I'm bored with plant-like monsters that lure you in with a scent a cause you to lie down underneath their branches. It is a bit cliched.

It moves way too slowly to be much of threat. At 20 feet, the PCs can too easily avoid this monster as long as they stay out of range. The creature's range is 100 feet and that can be dealt with composite longbow (range 110 feet).

Hence my asking if I can change my entry.

[Debihuman]

You can edit the monster until the end of the contest. It ends on the 20th of November (check contest for time and date). You've got time to make changes.

Debby

[SlaadLord]

I mean this "change" would be, straight-up, a totally different creature Is that allowed?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Thanks again for going over these, Debi. I've been a bit lax this month.

I mean this "change" would be, straight-up, a totally different creature Is that allowed?

That is perfectly allowable. Nothing is set in stone until the end.

[Debihuman]

Oh, I'm liking the Tefleid much more than your earlier monster.

Environment needs fixing. It should be Far Realm or Any Transitive Plane (Extraplanar and Reality Acid really define it, and you mention that they come from the Far Realms).

While I like the fluff that it floats, giving it a fly speed of 40 ft (Perfect) suggests more than just floating. I'm seeing a disconnect between the stat block and the fluff. It could use a special ability for this. Also, giving it Perfect maneuverability isn't really justified. Creatures that big can't really turn mid-air all that well. However, you could give it the Special Ability Flight and explain it there. I really recommend giving it a Flight speed of half its land speed and downgrading maneuverability to Average.

I am not sure why they would speak Undercommon as their native language. They don't come from the Underdark. I'm not utterly convinced that these things would actually speak rather than chitter incomprehensibly. The Far Realm is weird so these should reflect that too. Just make 'em creepier and more unnatural as befits the contest.

Lifesense is a Special Ability that already exists. I don't think you needed to rename it Biosense.

Immense Bulk makes it sound like it should take up greater space than it normally would not, less space. I think you can find a better name than that. Otherwise it looks pretty good to me.

Debby

[SlaadLord]

Check to all of the above. Just one thing: the Lifesense feat specifies as its prerequisite that the base creature must have Con -. Is that a problem if it's a bonus feat?

[Fax Celestis]

Chokers have a special ability called Quickness. The fluff is in there. See this:

And yet their 20' speed, 10' climb speed is unmentioned. Cheetahs do not have an explanation listed as to why they have a 50' speed.

You don't need to have a Swim skill to take an underwater action. You can intentionally be underwater. See Swim skill.

Yes, you can. However, the SRD disagrees with you:

Flowing Water

Large, placid rivers move at only a few miles per hour, so they function as still water for most purposes. But some rivers and streams are swifter; anything floating in them moves downstream at a speed of 10 to 40 feet per round. The fastest rapids send swimmers bobbing downstream at 60 to 90 feet per round. Fast rivers are always at least rough water (Swim DC 15), and whitewater rapids are stormy water (Swim DC 20). If a character is in moving water, move her downstream the indicated distance at the end of her turn. A character trying to maintain her position relative to the riverbank can spend some or all of her turn swimming upstream.

[...]

Nonflowing Water

Lakes and oceans simply require a swim speed or successful Swim checks to move through (DC 10 in calm water, DC 15 in rough water, DC 20 in stormy water). Characters need a way to breathe if they’re underwater; failing that, they risk drowning. When underwater, characters can move in any direction as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability.

[...]

Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom.

And a relevant table.

My reason for 9 HD having about 9 special abilities is strictly for balance. There is no hard and fast rule but overloading on the Special Abilities makes for poor monster design. They have high CR and too low HD. I see it far too often. Also, this point was brought up in the article by Skip Williams How to Design a Monster: Recipes for Disaster. I refer to that article and to the book A Magical Society: Beast Builder published by Expeditious Press. Both of those sources are quite good for figuring out good monster design. It is an approximation but I've found it works really, really well in keeping creatures balanced. Of course, there are exceptions but they are rare. Usually it means a creature doesn't have enough HD for what it does. That means it has low HD, High CR and that gives the advantage to the PCs and more often than not that mean that the party can exploit a creature's weakness and defeat it without using their resources.

"Abilities==CR" is a poor measure. I could give a creature five abilities and 5 fey HD: it knows all languages, makes all knowledge checks trained, has telepathy 100', has tremorsense 30', and has blindsight 10'. It has no real effective combat capable abilities, its HD can't support it as CR 5, and yet, you feel that it should be rated a CR 5.

TL;DR Measuring via quantity is a poor choice. Measuring via quality is a good choice.

However, aberrations do need to breathe, eat and age. If they don't do those things then you need to explain why they don't.

Correct. And his aberration stated in the fluff description what it does and does not need to do, like other creatures that differ from the norm. This is not and does not require a special ability.

Don't compare apples to oranges: when I said,"Additionally, it can talk and yet is has not mouth. And it can speak all languages with only an Int of 23! That too should be explained in a Special ability." You responded with, "Why and why? You don't explain how a dragon breathes acid, just that it can. You don't explain how a creature with the Water subtype automatically has a Swim speed, it just does."

The number of languages a creature gets is based on its Int. How fast it moves is a factor of size, number of legs and design. See Monster Manual page 298 in the chart on the right it shows typical speed.

Typical speed. Typical languages. You said it yourself. Aberrations, by their very nature have "a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three." By definition, they break this mold.

A creature with no mouth can't speak normally so it needs a simple explanation. Tongues? Telepathy? Ventriloquism from another body part? I'd pretty much take anything but I don't know enough about this creature to make assumptions as to its biology and how it works.

Again, aberration. "Bizarre anatomy" should fall into that rather neatly. Why, exactly, do we need to know how it talks, rather than just that it does when it shouldn't? Creatures are much more terrifying when they are unexplainable.

When you are making a new monster you have throw more at the reader to explain things.

Why? He gave the same amount of description every creature that appears in the SRD possesses, more than that in many cases.

Water type gives you a Swim speed automatically. It is a feature. Getting every language goes even beyond bonus languages.

Why yes, water type says that. And similarly, this creature states it knows all languages, so it does.

Furthermore, I say shenanigans on getting special languages like Druid. Phooey! Not for a 9 HD monster with an Int of 23. If this were an epic creature, it would make more sense.

And the fact that this creature has literally lobotomized itself and tuned its brain means nothing?

You seem preeminently concerned with the "how and why" of this creature. These are things that are frequently omitted or unexplained in many, many existing creatures, partially so that DMs may adjust them to fit their own needs rather than being locked into a specific pattern of activity. "How" and "why" are questions that are answered by a DM when they use the monster, not in the monster's fluff and ability descriptions. The only questions that the monster entry is supposed to answer are "who" and "what".

[Goblin Scribe]

*Hippity-Hops into thread*

A creature with no mouth can't speak normally so it needs a simple explanation. Tongues? Telepathy? Ventriloquism from another body part? I'd pretty much take anything but I don't know enough about this creature to make assumptions as to its biology and how it works.

This is the one real problem I have with the creature. Well, that and the hard-to-remember name.
Being no good at creature designing, I'm mostly looking at the fluff, and the last two monsters thus far I like the most. Keep up the monsters! I'll be watching this thread and providing dubious advice until the end of the contest.

[Vaynor]

This is the one real problem I have with the creature. Well, that and the hard-to-remember name.

I thought that the ability to verbally speak without a mouth or similar organ would add to its unnaturalness.

The name means "surgeon" in Welsh, by the way.

[Goblin Scribe]

I thought that the ability to verbally speak without a mouth or similar organ would add to its unnaturalness.

The name means "surgeon" in Welsh, by the way.

Yeah, I figured it was Welsh or something, but the Evil-Yet-Normally-Effective Google Translator failed me.

And I know it's creepy, but also kind of off-putting (and not in the horrific way).

[Lord_Gareth]

Fax...that thing does not seem CR 9 to me....

[Fax Celestis]

Fax...that thing does not seem CR 9 to me....

I've upped it to CR 11.

[Debihuman]

And yet their 20' speed, 10' climb speed is unmentioned. Cheetahs do not have an explanation listed as to why they have a 50' speed.

Because it is commonly known that cheetahs are fast.

You don't need a Swim speed to move through the water if you aren't swimming. For example, a creature that doesn't need to breathe could simply walk along the bottom avoiding the consequences of drowning. Constructs can do this. The only reason the rules regarding lakes and rivers are mentioned is if you are swimming. This creature doesn't risk drowning because it doesn't breathe in the first place.

Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.

First, I never said that I used Abilities as the only measure for CR. But it is a good indicator of how difficult a monster is in conjunction with its over all strengths: are its abilities above average for its HD, how many bonus feats does it have, does it have features that mimic feats, does it use a magic weapon, etc. All of those things are factors too. Still, I stand by my statement that having more Special Abilities than a creature has HD can be a problem when assigning CR.

Furthermore, a special ability should be singular unless the effects are dependent upon one another. A Special Ability that lets you add your Cha modifier to attacks, damage, AC and skills is really doing more than one thing. Attack and damage are related so really that could be combined into one. AC should probably be a separate function and so should the additional skills. I'm not saying that it can't do those things, I'm just saying that the presentation could be better.

CR is not only a measure of combat but it is a measure of how much it will take up in the parties resources. A creature with Telepathy can contact allies in a way that the PCs cannot. Don't be so sure that you can simply hand wave the use of all languages or tremorsense. Those things can affect surprise.

Why, exactly, do we need to know how it talks, rather than just that it does when it shouldn't? Creatures are much more terrifying when they are unexplainable.

Creatures are much more terrifying when they are unknown. Once they are known, they stop being quite so scary.

However, the DM has to take on the role of the creature. The stat block isn't for the players, it is for the DM. It is up to the DM to make this creature terrifying and more that the DM knows about it, the easier this is to pull off. Nobody wants to look foolish when the PCs ask a reasonable question regarding this creature and the DM has to pause to figure it out. That ruins the mood entirely.

You seem preeminently concerned with the "how and why" of this creature. These are things that are frequently omitted or unexplained in many, many existing creatures, partially so that DMs may adjust them to fit their own needs rather than being locked into a specific pattern of activity. "How" and "why" are questions that are answered by a DM when they use the monster, not in the monster's fluff and ability descriptions. The only questions that the monster entry is supposed to answer are "who" and "what".

Anything left unexplained to the DM is a potential source of FAIL. There are whole articles dedicated to the ecology of creatures precisely because people do want to know. The more that is defined, the better it is. Less defined isn't scary, it's unfinished.

Debby

[Lord_Gareth]

Anything left unexplained to the DM is a potential source of FAIL. There are whole articles dedicated to the ecology of creatures precisely because people do want to know. The more that is defined, the better it is. Less defined isn't scary, it's unfinished.

Debby

The Great Cthulu would like a word with you. Several words, actually.

Less defined is often very scary. In fact, less defined is often the point.

[Debihuman]

I've played with Cthulhu and I've seen games break down into the Cthluhu Comedy Hour too. There's a fine line between scary and silly.

I repeat: f you don't define it for the DM, then it has a higher potential of FAIL.

What the PCs know is irrelevant to the stat block. That would be a matter of making the successful Knowledge checks. For Aberrations it is Knowledge (Dungeoneering). It starts off with 10 + HD and each check increases by +5. 19 -- you learn X about said monster (generally type and subtype if any)
25-- you learn interesting detail about said monster.
30 -- You learn more interesting detail about said monster.
35--etc.

Saying something is scary is less scary than showing something that is scary.

Debby

[Fax Celestis]

Because it is commonly known that cheetahs are fast.

You don't need a Swim speed to move through the water if you aren't swimming. For example, a creature that doesn't need to breathe could simply walk along the bottom avoiding the consequences of drowning. Constructs can do this. The only reason the rules regarding lakes and rivers are mentioned is if you are swimming. This creature doesn't risk drowning because it doesn't breathe in the first place.

Yes, yes, I understand that. But there are other creatures underwater, and you may have to swim to fight some of them because you can't just stand around on the floor while they fight in three dimensions. It's like fighting on land, when all your opponents fly.

First, I never said that I used Abilities as the only measure for CR. But it is a good indicator of how difficult a monster is in conjunction with its over all strengths: are its abilities above average for its HD, how many bonus feats does it have, does it have features that mimic feats, does it use a magic weapon, etc. All of those things are factors too. Still, I stand by my statement that having more Special Abilities than a creature has HD can be a problem when assigning CR.

And I still say that having fifteen worthless special abilities does not make a CR 15 monster.

Furthermore, a special ability should be singular unless the effects are dependent upon one another. A Special Ability that lets you add your Cha modifier to attacks, damage, AC and skills is really doing more than one thing. Attack and damage are related so really that could be combined into one. AC should probably be a separate function and so should the additional skills. I'm not saying that it can't do those things, I'm just saying that the presentation could be better.

...and here I will specifically disagree with you. An ability should be unified, yes, but an ability that adds your Charisma modifier to all your saving throws and your Armor Class works just fine as a single ability. You don't need a separate ability for breathing a cone of fire and one for breathing a cone of lightning: you need one ability that says "this creature can breathe a cone of fire or lightning".

Because the DM has to take on the role of the creature. The stat block isn't for the players, it is for the DM. It is up to the DM to make this creature terrifying and more that the DM knows about it, the easier this is to pull off. Nobody wants to look foolish when the PCs ask which is the front and the DM says, " well, I don't know." The DM better know.

And a DM that is unimaginative enough to come up with something is not a very good DM.

Anything left unexplained to the DM is a potential source of FAIL.

Anything the DM has to rewrite to fit it into his universe is also a potential source of FAIL.

There are whole articles dedicated to the ecology of creatures precisely because people do want to know. The more that is defined, the better it is. Less defined isn't scary, it's unfinished.

This contest is specifically about creatures beyond our normal ken. There's no need to put into terms what makes a creature tick when it is supposed to be something that cannot physically function in our universe or works outside the bounds of reality.

[Vaynor]

Because it is commonly known that cheetahs are fast.

It is also commonly known that llawfeddygs are fast as well, to those who know about them. The fact that you only know about cheetahs and not about llawfeddygs is not my concern.

Creatures are much more terrifying when they are unknown. Once they are known, they stop being quite so scary.

However, the DM has to take on the role of the creature. The stat block isn't for the players, it is for the DM. It is up to the DM to make this creature terrifying and more that the DM knows about it, the easier this is to pull off. Nobody wants to look foolish when the PCs ask a reasonable question regarding this creature and the DM has to pause to figure it out. That ruins the mood entirely.

First of all, where its front is is a nonissue. Dealing with the mouth issue, if the player asks where its voice comes from when seeing the lack of mouth, the DM should say "You can't tell" because instead no one knows. The DM knowing isn't an issue, since it's not a reasonable question, there's no reason the players could ever possibly know how it talks. Why does the DM even have to explain it?

[LOTRfan]

I would just like to add that it seems sort of silly that the biggest problem with a monster for a contest of aberrations, unnatural creatures, and other creatures that just shouldn't exist, is the fact that it doesn't have a mouth.

[Debihuman]

It is also commonly known that llawfeddygs are fast as well, to those who know about them. The fact that you only know about cheetahs and not about llawfeddygs is not my concern.

But it should be. As a designer, it's something that is easy to note.

First of all, where its front is is a nonissue.

I agree. I was editing this out when you responded.

Dealing with the mouth issue, if the player asks where its voice comes from when seeing the lack of mouth, the DM should say "You can't tell" because instead no one knows. The DM knowing isn't an issue, since it's not a reasonable question, there's no reason the players could ever possibly know how it talks. Why does the DM even have to explain it?

Because it is the DM's job to be able to answer those kinds of questions on the fly. Really, the more the DM knows, the easier it is to scare the players rather than make them laugh.

I hate having to make stuff up on the fly when I've got a monster entry at hand. I want to know everything I can so that I can determine exactly when and how the PCs will find it out. It's a game of cat-and-mouse. Only if I don't know the mystery, how in the heck can my players take it seriously?

BTW, I loved Call of Cthulhu back in the day. I even bought the D20 version when it came out. The only problem with CoC is that it tends to break down after the PCs go insane, which is inevitable.

I would just like to add that it seems sort of silly that the biggest problem with a monster for a contest of aberrations, unnatural creatures, and other creatures that just shouldn't exist, is the fact that it doesn't have a mouth.

The devil is in the details my friend. :-) But you are right. It is rather silly,.

Debby

[Fax Celestis]

I hate having to make stuff up on the fly when I've got a monster entry at hand. I want to know everything I can so that I can determine exactly when and how the PCs will find it out. It's a game of cat-and-mouse. Only if I don't know the mystery, how in the heck can my players take it seriously?

Tell me, then: is my entry enough information, or are you still looking for more?

[Vaynor]

I'm sorry there's not enough information for you in my monster entry, but I can't really be expected to answer every possible question a player might have about the monster. I am not prepared to write a Draconomicon-esque book on the llawfeddyg.

[Debihuman]

Vaynor, that's the trouble with more complicated creatures such as the one you designed. I thoroughly admit to nit-picking on it somewhat. I hope you didn't mind too much. Good luck with your entry. I did like the presentation of it.

Fax, that stat block is a thing of beauty. I wish they were all that good.

Look at each special ability. It fills a singular niche in almost every case. That's what I mean by not layering the special abilities under one name.

Unfortunately, I think this might be a TPK type monster. It has the potential to inflict a tremendous amount of damage from Energy Retort and Elemental Maelstrom. Otherwise, it looks to be fairly on par with the Glabrezu.

The omni-elemental flavor is only apparent in its ability to fly and swim so that aspect is a little lacking. If you removed it, it would hardly be noticeable.

Debby