GitP/ChHa Server Thread IV: For Science. You Monster.

[Jibar]

I personally think this is true. However, it seems that to many of the rest of us aren't willing to deal with ChHa most of the time...at least nowadays.

I don't like how abusive some of the pubbies are getting.
I mean, it's not just me is it? Every time I log on to regular ChHa there's always a couple of guys running their mouths off about everything. I tell 'em to keep it cool, play a bit nicer, but they're not really breaking any rules so I can't punish them or whatever.
After a while I just don't want to play with people like that so I quit and do something else.

[KBF]

Let me first say it is probably not my place to say the things I'm about to say, if that makes any sense or actually means anything.

EDIT:Oh, and sorry about kicking you out on accident Roku. If it's any consolation I had the most fun I've had on TF2 in a long time.

We weren't doing this to steal thunder from ChHa. This was not our intention at all. We didn't start this to show everyone how much better we could run a server compared to ChHa. We did this because we like playing smaller games with friends. We were tired of the spam, of the trolls, of the general attitude we were getting from pubbies on ChHa.

lets see how many times i can say pubby..
You didn't intend to show how much better a server could be run, but nevertheless, you did. Even before you made SHaFT abusive and annoying, 'rule skirting' (as the pansy mods put it) pubbies overran ChHa, and it was no longer a fun place for the Chocolate Hammer and GitP members to play every now and then together. It was a giant server that really just grew too quickly.

We got many fun people, many of which came here, or maybe were already here and found us after finding the server. But it wasn't where you played with your friends and some pubbies anymore, it was a place where there were pubbies and whoever had the patience to wait for a pubby to leave. And once you were there, none of your friends were. Well, maybe one who also had some patience, but nobody would just pop in to play. If there was any abuse, anybody making the rest of the server angry and you weren't me, who did you call to help? There was no room, so you kinda had to call an admin. Of which there are about two.

Even if you were a mod, many of us were keenly aware that we shouldn't exercise our authority too often, and made us rather paranoid of 'abusing' our power on someone who wasn't in 'violation of the rules' and it did not help that the people complaining were mostly people you didn't know. So it's not even like some ass came in on you and your friend's game and started constantly yelling into the mic, they just came into the same game you were in. It feels more ambiguous. Did I have a point?

Oh, right. SHaFT clearly had none of these issues. It was actually, most of the time, better for ChHa's own purpose (hanging out with friends instead of with random pubbies) than ChHa was. It's not that you're being villanized, no. It's more like.. You've inspired ChHa to remember what it should be. Unfortunately, it's kind of a scary road, but ultimately it's for the better for the GitP and Chocolate Hammer community. Not most pubbies, sure, but most of them are pretty bland and boring or they just bother everyone. The cool ones, like..

And remember, pubbies aren't bad. It's how I found you guys. And I know I'm not the only one that joined the community this way.

Like you and Sigs, among others, we really need a rating plugin we can use without prejudice. Because I really rather like some pubbies who really are just cool people without a regular server.

Seriously Djinn and Potato we need that system to keep the cool people in.

and i'm done typing whatever comes to mind now.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You didn't intend to show how much better a server could be run, but nevertheless, you did. Even before you made SHaFT abusive and annoying, 'rule skirting' (as the pansy mods put it) pubbies overran ChHa, and it was no longer a fun place for the Chocolate Hammer and GitP members to play every now and then together. It was a giant server that really just grew too quickly. We got many fun people, many of which came here, or maybe were already here and found us after finding the server. But it wasn't where you played with your friends and some pubbies anymore, it was a place where there were pubbies and whoever had the patience to wait for a pubby to leave. And once you were there, none of your friends were. Well, maybe one who also had some patience, but nobody would just pop in to play. If there was any abuse, anybody making the rest of the server angry and you weren't me, who did you call to help? There was no room, so you kinda had to call an admin. Of which there are about two. Even if you were a mod, many of us were keenly aware that we shouldn't exercise our authority too often, and made us rather paranoid of 'abusing' our power on someone who wasn't in 'violation of the rules' and it did not help that the people complaining were mostly people you didn't know. So it's not even like some ass came in on you and your friends game and started constantly yelling into the mic, they just came into the same game you were in. It feels more ambiguous. Did I have a point? Oh, right. SHaFT clearly had none of these issues. It was actually, most of the time, better for ChHa's own purpose (hanging out with friends instead of with random pubbies) than ChHa was. It's not that you're being villanized, no. It's more like.. You've inspired ChHa to remember what it should be. Unfortunately, it's kind of a scary road, but ultimately it's for the better for the GitP and Chocolate Hammer community. Not most pubbies, sure, but most of them are pretty bland and boring or they just bother everyone.

...I'm actually rather offended by this, just for the record. I don't think ChHa is overrun by pubbies because it's not a well run server: I think the exact opposite is true, and I've had them tell us that numerous times. That's why they stick around.

Regardless, if ChHa is just going to be for the pubbies and we're all playing elsewhere (or use ChHa is the other server is either full or completely empty), we may as well shut it down, which is something I don't want to see happen.

[KBF]

...I'm actually rather offended by this, just for the record. I don't think ChHa is overrun by pubbies because it's not a well run server: I think the exact opposite is true, and I've had them tell us that numerous times. That's why they stick around.

Regardless, if ChHa is just going to be for the pubbies and we're all playing elsewhere (or use ChHa is the other server is either full or completely empty), we may as well shut it down, which is something I don't want to see happen.

You misunderstand, Djinn. I agree with you 100% and that was my point. It's a very well run server that would serve no point now because we aren't playing on it anymore. In that sense, it's not very well run compared to SHaFT, just because SHaFT is now what ChHa was supposed to be. In the normal sense it's still very well run, it just did not do what it's supposed to.

Does that make sense? I'm sorry, I'm kind of rambling, but I really do agree Djinn and I do like your administration a lot.

[Dispozition]

Honestly, ChHa is the second best server I've ever played on (only doesn't get best because of my ping :P) so I will be sad to see it go if it does. I think a serious overhaul of the mods, plugins, and rules is needed though. We have too many mods with too much variation in rule enforcing. Rule skirting should not be allowed, since they're aware of the rule and they're trying their best to no break it but still be offensive. Some of the mods would kick for that (I would for certain), some would warn, others wouldn't care. That's the problem.

I think that culling the mods down to at *least* half the size is what we need to do. Of course, people will then complain about not being able to kick abusive players and whatnot. In that case, we need a vote kick function in the server. Simple majority rules should be enough in most cases, and when it's not then you get in contact with one of the mods.

However, the server regulars also need to have thicker skins. The best server I've played on had abusive players, mostly trolls, but it was still a hell of a lot of fun to play on. The mods didn't take crap from players, they would enforce their decisions justly, and were all round good. Now I know this isn't the way that Djinn or Potato want to go, but I am saying that all this whining about players is just annoying and won't solve anything.

...Probably the unpopular opinion there, but whatever.

[watsyurname529]

...I'm actually rather offended by this, just for the record. I don't think ChHa is overrun by pubbies because it's not a well run server: I think the exact opposite is true, and I've had them tell us that numerous times. That's why they stick around.

Regardless, if ChHa is just going to be for the pubbies and we're all playing elsewhere (or use ChHa is the other server is either full or completely empty), we may as well shut it down, which is something I don't want to see happen.

Besides the fact that we just have a ton of people coming to our server, the other reason the reserve slots are pissing the pubbies off is that it was just recently implemented. If we had it all along there would be considerably less griping and notice of it because it was there when the pubbies got there.

So I can see the reason behind the reserved slots which is why I'm not against it, I'm not particularly for it as i'd rather not kick someone off so I could play. But if we have to then it's fine. Once again, its our server and we have a right to play on it because it's ours.

[onasuma]

I had a long post here, but my browzer crashed and took it so Ill paraphrase - I think ChHa is going through the advancement of a server. Most start out small with a bunch of friends (or the Cool Crew as they are known). Then people start to find the server - they see said Cool Crew talking and generally being cool and some want to join in. The servers regulars grow in number as do the pubbies who join it til a 24 man server is no longer large enough to allow all the cool people to play together with all the pubbies around but they cant kick them because thats imoral. Due to this, the cool crew slowly start to move away and find themselves a new server (in our case Shaft) and then the original either is shut down due to lack of funds or becomes a 24/7 2fort server.

Ive seen this pattern happen to my last two main servers and the cirumstances seem to be almost identicle to whats happening now. Its at this point we either take desisive action or it all falls apart.

Idealy, Id like to see us open a second open server (potentially with no crits or a similar gimic) and us to remove the reserved slots - as nice as it is for some of us who benefit, no one can't wait a few minuets to connect to a computer game. Of course, this means requiring more funding (which is why I suggest reinstating donator benefits as we had before) so may not be possible. The only other action I would suggest would be outright locking the server. Not a great course of action, but from my experience it saves the community and I personally think that that is more important.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Idealy, Id like to see us open a second open server (potentially with no crits or a similar gimic) and us to remove the reserved slots - as nice as it is for some of us who benefit, no one can't wait a few minuets to connect to a computer game. Of course, this means requiring more funding (which is why I suggest reinstating donator benefits as we had before) so may not be possible. The only other action I would suggest would be outright locking the server. Not a great course of action, but from my experience it saves the community and I personally think that that is more important.

I also see this as the best course of action, if it is possible to do so. I also agree almost entirely with Dizpozition.

[watsyurname529]

I also see this as the best course of action, if it is possible to do so. I also agree almost entirely with Dizpozition.

So do we need to start the ChHa Bake Sale?

Full of esoteric baked goods that you're guaranteed to never find anywhere else.

[Jibar]

Full of esoteric baked goods that you're guaranteed to never find anywhere else.

Yo.

What up.

Don't get to do that joke nearly enough.

[potatocubed]

I also see this as the best course of action, if it is possible to do so. I also agree almost entirely with Dizpozition.

See, the reason I'm against adding a second (third?) server is because the community is already too diluted to sustain two with the atmosphere we all love.

Say we open ChHa II. The regulars flood over there to escape the pubs. Leaving ChHa I as... what? An unmoderated wasteland? Moving the problem will not get rid of it.

[mightymonarch]

So I guess what we need to do is somehow get ChHa back to the way it was before. Back to where it was mostly regulars and a few pubs. So, the question is, how do we do it?

[Jibar]

So I guess what we need to do is somehow get ChHa back to the way it was before. Back to where it was mostly regulars and a few pubs. So, the question is, how do we do it?

It's simple... we kill the Batman.

I'll stop.

[potatocubed]

I'm in favour of continuing to experiment with reserve slots, in order to make sure that there if some community types want to get on they can. I think it's worth making clear at this point that I never intended to have people pay for access. The barriers to entry into the ChHa community are deliberately low.

I've just cut the number of slots from 8 down to 4 in an attempt to minimise the number of pubs who get the boot, and I'm going to update the front page now so that arrivals are warned and assured that it's nothing personal.

EDIT: To make my intentions clearer - I think our best option is to recreate and reinforce the ChHa community using the raw materials at hand. Like making buttermilk using a little bit of buttermilk as a catalyst.

[Forbiddenwar]

Most of this conversation is WAY over my head, as I'm still new to TF2 and really, all online play.
I don't see much of a difference between starting another server and having 3 (1 of which is locked) and just shutting CHHA down and starting a new one, except the cost. Both seems equally futile, and yeilding the same result.

I do think that reserve slots would help the issue, although it has the effect of locking half the server. But even that may not help.

I do think ChHa has changed even since I found it 2 weeks or so ago. I was on recently and someone (I assume a nonregular) was commenting on how the rules don't matter since no one ever gets banned (oddly, this was right after Nightclaw got banned) Part of the issue is with the server at capacity, it seems moderators can't or don't get on to enforce good play, and head over to SHaFT instead, resulting in less enforcement, less interesting maps and no gimmiks. It seems like I haven't played on any of the new maps since right after the test.

I'm sorry I don't have a solution. Maybe password lock it, but give the password on the ChHa group page so that anyone who does want to find it can? Maybe shut it down and open a new one? Add more admins and mods? I don't know.

The core issue is that ChHa is (slowly becoming was) such a great, fun, well maintained server. It is succeeding itself to death. If Djinn wanted to turn this into a paid server, (100% slots reserved for paying members only, As distasteful as that is) I think he'd have plenty of business, may even pay off his student loans.

Edit: such a long post, it seems outdated once submittted

[Dentarthur]

Only 4 slots? So when the server is full, then either (a) there's only 3 or fewer regulars there, or (b) I can't join?

That's not much better than what we had before implementing reserve slots. This community is large enough to populate a server much of the time, as we've demonstrated at SHaFT. Personally, I'd rather see a lot of pubbies get kicked and have to join another server, than be unable to play with the community I love because we didn't want to piss off some strangers. What's wrong with keeping all 24 slots reserved? Or hell, why don't we just add a password and make it our server again, this time for good?

[Byrnbot08]

All that I have to say to the server thing is this:

ChHa is great.

That is why it is so popular. Just like all great things, like America before the Great Depression, like Post-WW1 Germany, the server was good. It had a great atmosphere. It had wonderful people. It had that little bit of paradise everyone was looking for.

Then, the inevitable happened. Discovery and exploitation. Pubbies randomly join, some friends of friends of friends make their way, soon news travels fast, a free haven, where any man/woman/combat cyborg could make a name for themselves. But with the pioneers and the visionaries comes the more base elements of society. People who don't play by the rules, people who exploit loopholes, people who intimidate their way into this world or worse, calamity; the server faces a crisis of which it has never seen before.

Therefore, to complete my analogy of the Great Depression and Post-WWI Germany I have two suggestions.

Negotiating for Peace: A 'new deal' if you will. The server is given a new offer on life. We correct the loopholes, make clearer the rules, reshape and retool the way admins/mods and players interact with the server. Create order out of chaos through negotiation and open arms. Embrace the pubbies and show them what they could have, instead of asking what they need. Give them incentives to be nice, give them reason to donate to this wonderful server. Give them a charter if you will.

Enforcing the Peace: Don't lock down, but enforce order. Show people with a firm hand where the line is drawn. Make it a thing of pride to be playing on this server, where the well behaved are embraced and the unruly given a warning through more obvious warnings, more immediate kicks and immediate lasting bans following particularly nasty breaches of law. People need to learn that you cannot [expletive] with this server. But after the storm has subsided, pull back, lest you incur the legacy of a dictatorship.

Hamsters can't go on strike.
They don't have a Union.

Jibbs, my unreliable contact within the hamster triads have warned me about one of my comrades being targeted. They have sent their finest hitman to kill you. Supposedly, this is what he looks like.

Spoiler

Show

I am trying my best to stop them, but they're too damn cute.

[Imposter]

Just as a comment, I'm going to be pissed if I come back and the server is gone. Or if the server is still there, but the people I always went to play with are gone. I found this server and community as a pubbie, trying to find a nice place to play. Coming back after 2 months of not being able to play and finding that it effectively doesn't exist anymore? That sounds rather like the kind of thing that causes unhappiness.

Also, does the reserved slot plugin allow an automatic redirect for the player being kicked? Because then I'd support an otherwise closed overflow server, where we could shunt players we don't know.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Also, does the reserved slot plugin allow an automatic redirect for the player being kicked? Because then I'd support an otherwise closed overflow server, where we could shunt players we don't know.

That would be excellent, actually, if we could manage to pull it off. And I think there are plugins that do exactly that...

That said, Byrnbot? In regards to your suggestion, I AM ready and willing to restructure things, and actually wanted to do so a while back. Thoughts on the matter?

[potatocubed]

1. The server's not going anywhere, since there's ~$150 in the Clanpay account which will keep it up until about December.

2. Yes, I believe the reserve system does support a redirect. I think. The Sourcemod basic version doesn't. There is probably a plugin that does.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I still think the main issue is running out of room which is largely solved by adding a second server. I don't know how the funds are but if we know how much we need to get to/what it would take some of us might consider donating towards that second one.

And my 2 cents would be to have 2 smaller servers. 2 18's would be vastly superior to one 24.

[Byrnbot08]

That would be excellent, actually, if we could manage to pull it off. And I think there are plugins that do exactly that...

That said, Byrnbot? In regards to your suggestion, I AM ready and willing to restructure things, and actually wanted to do so a while back. Thoughts on the matter?

I always thought rewrite the rules/or add new ones like Roosevelt, or clamp down on troublemakers like Hitler. They were both successful politicians, who led their country out of the dumps.

Personally, as a player who was once kicked and banned for rude/unsportsmanlike behaviour, I was set straight by that event. Clamping down on troublemakers before they become bold is important.

Once they become too bold and too numerous, it takes too much effort to remove them one by one. Catch them as they come, don't be afraid to kick jackasses if they ruin other people's fun. Kicking will inconvienience them seriously now, as there is a waiting list for the server most of the time.

[Scorpionica]

…

Enforcing the Peace: Don't lock down, but enforce order. Show people with a firm hand where the line is drawn. Make it a thing of pride to be playing on this server, where the well behaved are embraced and the unruly given a warning through more obvious warnings, more immediate kicks and immediate lasting bans following particularly nasty breaches of law. People need to learn that you cannot [expletive] with this server. But after the storm has subsided, pull back, lest you incur the legacy of a dictatorship.

…

I was going to post something equivalent in a far worse manner, but instead I'd like to reiterate this. There's been talk of players skirting by the rules, narrowly treading on the code of conduct as to avoid anything harsher than a stern warning, or gaining reprieve before starting the same habit. Moderation needs to be visible and rigorous.

Now, I've never asked for powers or a say in things because I knew that with those responsibilities, ambiguity over how certain policies would need to be held in high regard would be introduced, while others would merely precipitate a warning. It entails a lot of responsibility, and for that I would like to commend everyone here who has had to deal with unsavoury characters, for hazarding moderation on a popular public server, and keeping things friendly and open when the tides were against you.

[Imposter]

That would be excellent, actually, if we could manage to pull it off. And I think there are plugins that do exactly that.

To be completely honest, I only posted that comment because I know there are plugins that do that. If only because Scuzz linked one a few pages back.

My personal idea: Create server "New Chocolate Hammer". Server is a lightly moderated and lacks reserved slots, but is otherwise kept identical to "ChHa Classic". "New" is unpassworded, available either to be found or as a redirect. If "Classic" fills, any reserved slot kicks would be redirected to "New", which would hopefully serve as a respectable subsitute. In the meantime, any community members would be able to rely on getting onto the main server and finding people they know.

I'm against simply adding servers, since that just sounds like it would spread the problem out and make it even more unlikely to find someone amusing to kill play with.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

My personal idea: Create server "New Chocolate Hammer". Server is a lightly moderated and lacks reserved slots, but is otherwise kept identical to "ChHa Classic". "New" is unpassworded, available either to be found or as a redirect. If "Classic" fills, any reserved slot kicks would be redirected to "New", which would hopefully serve as a respectable subsitute. In the meantime, any community members would be able to rely on getting onto the main server and finding people they know.

I'm against simply adding servers, since that just sounds like it would spread the problem out and make it even more unlikely to find someone amusing to kill play with.

Personally, I find this to be a wonderful idea. Here is an option that I personally love:

We make 2 servers, both 24 man servers (as, while smaller games are nice, we have a large community). Let's call them ChHa Regular and ChHa Classic. ChHa Classic is the new server: a password protected server.

The catch? The password is freely available on ChHa Regular. This means that ChHa Classic will not fill up with people we don't wish to play with, but rather with those who have already come to and enjoyed ChHa. A mod team willing to play on both servers will ensure that the riff-raff gets weeded out, and ChHa Classic will likely have a smaller player base, due to the password protection: your average pubby won't bother with a passworded server, even if the password is very simple.

Further, ChHa Classic could have reserve slots (making it effectively a 22 man server). Those would be reserved for our regulars, determined by the community at large. The understanding would be that ChHa Regular is free for everyone, but ChHa Classic has a slight bias towards regular players, although pubbies are, of course, welcome...provided they've been exposed to our community.

Thoughts?

[blackfox]

I second that idea. Wish I had something to contribute... summer fries my brain.

[Imposter]

Thoughts?

Sounds good. Happy to have been able to add something. And that it was coherent, considering it was posted at 2 am.

[Emlyn]

A very good idea. And while we're at it, we do need to rewrite the rules and explicity outline what is a kick and what is a banable offense.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A very good idea. And while we're at it, we do need to rewrite the rules and explicity outline what is a kick and what is a banable offense.

Sadly, I can't. Many of the things are open to admin opinion, otherwise we open the doors for people circumventing the rules.

I WILL, however, write up something for the admins outlining my philosophy on banning/kicking/punishment.

[Byrnbot08]

Personally, I find this to be a wonderful idea. Here is an option that I personally love:

We make 2 servers, both 24 man servers (as, while smaller games are nice, we have a large community). Let's call them ChHa Regular and ChHa Classic. ChHa Classic is the new server: a password protected server.

The catch? The password is freely available on ChHa Regular. This means that ChHa Classic will not fill up with people we don't wish to play with, but rather with those who have already come to and enjoyed ChHa. A mod team willing to play on both servers will ensure that the riff-raff gets weeded out, and ChHa Classic will likely have a smaller player base, due to the password protection: your average pubby won't bother with a passworded server, even if the password is very simple.

Further, ChHa Classic could have reserve slots (making it effectively a 22 man server). Those would be reserved for our regulars, determined by the community at large. The understanding would be that ChHa Regular is free for everyone, but ChHa Classic has a slight bias towards regular players, although pubbies are, of course, welcome...provided they've been exposed to our community.

Thoughts?

Making the password freely available is probably not a good idea. Pubbies are clever people, and resourceful. They also have friends who share similar interests/playstyles. They will find a way to flood this server as well if you give them a chance. Not good, because then, we will then have two servers full of foul-mouthed pubbies.

A suggestion lies below for second server idea.

Change the pass monthly: We have a server group. We have PMs on these here forums. It is tiresome, but it is effective security against troublemakers.

Anyone who is willing to join the forums, request a password and contribute to community is most likely coming for a good reason. Extend the hand of friendship to those who go the extra mile to join us.

A more radical extension of that is, ALSO auto-kicking anyone not on the list of regulars should they have the password thorugh friends. Having to request regular status and be approved for playtime on Vanila Battleaxe makes it feel more bureaucratic, but it does mean that anyone on the server has been checked beforehand for being a douche.