Why the gnome hate?

[wick]

I always thought the Gnomish science/inventions were too steam punkish and welll stupid.

There was one Forgotten Realms story (One of the books featuring Harpers) that had a Harper agent working with Gnomes. One of the Gnomes wore Gnomish Badger armor, which was very spikey armor used for you guess what. This was one of the few stories that I hvae read that did not have Jan Jansen-esque, exploding, alchemical gnomes.

Gnomes are not viewed as being serious. You could play them dark and somber but it would seem weird.

When Dming I might have the human lands, the Elvish forest, Dwarvish mountain homes...etc..but I often forget to put the Gnomes anywhere. Interesting enough their presence is not missed.

[Orzel]

Gnome fill a niche no one care about.
Few hate gnomes. They just have enough hoots to give them after the elves and dwarves get.

[Calmar]

When I need a short technicus-type character, I play a dwarf who specializes in mechanical skills, or alchemy, and maybe even crafts automatons (and that's heavily setting-dependent).
When I need a short roguish character, I play a halfling.

As a friend of mine put it: "What are gnomes at all??"

[hamishspence]

D&D gnomes are a bit on the large side. Maybe gnomes as pixies without wings, might tap into the folklore image of gnomes better.

Terry Pratchett did this a couple of times, with "nomes" in the Bromeliad trilogy, and the "pictsies" AKA Nac Mac Feegle, in Discworld.

By your logic Drow should be good and surface Elves evil because Loith's story of her fall differs from the one Corellon tells.

In Faerun, the fall of the drow is not tied to the fall of Lolth- but took place long after.

And the Crown Wars (which had the banishment of the drow part-way through) involved appalling behaviour by both the drow and the sun elves- but it's the dark elves that end up banished, even though it wasn't them who began the war. Even perfectly innocent dark elves were transformed. The sun elves do get some comeuppance, but not nearly as much.

[Calintares]

I despise gnomes because most of my experience with them are from Arcanum, and there they are bastards.

I also like the way the Giant planned them here. (as an asside, I'd love to see some progress on that project) but even there, the core aspect of them still are that they exploit others.

[LibraryOgre]

Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?

Thus speaks the twisted hate of kobold apologists. If kobolds lived such selfless lives where, may I ask, are those that descended from, and live to serve, the good dragons? Where is the race of kind kobolds, toiling in the name of Bahamut? They do not exist, because they never have. Kobolds are twisted creatures, convinced of their own innocence, while lashing out all who "oppress" them. They are born of evil, and prostrate themselves before it whenever given the opportunity. That evil can take the form of dragons, dragon-gods, or any profane deity willing to spill its filth upon them.

Those limitless resources that Bayar speaks of... did he mention what they were? Of course not. He does not want you to know that these were the souls of gnomes yet unborn, that his kind stole from Garl Glittergold. The kobolds were aware of this, yet were pleased to steal souls for their dragon overlords. They present Garl's collapse of their tunnels as an assault, but leave out that they struck first, and more grievously, attempting to steal not only the present of the gnomish race, but its very future. Kurtulmak is no "freedom fighter", looking over the oppressed koboldish race... he is a terrorist, a murderer, and a willing rent-boy for any evil deity who shakes a fist... whether it be gloved in steel or dripping a few measly coppers.

[Traveler]

I'm a kobold fan so... yeah. Gnomes arn't high on my list of races, unless it is on the list of races to sucker punch.

[Bayar]

Thus speaks the twisted hate of kobold apologists. If kobolds lived such selfless lives where, may I ask, are those that descended from, and live to serve, the good dragons? Where is the race of kind kobolds, toiling in the name of Bahamut? They do not exist, because they never have. Kobolds are twisted creatures, convinced of their own innocence, while lashing out all who "oppress" them. They are born of evil, and prostrate themselves before it whenever given the opportunity. That evil can take the form of dragons, dragon-gods, or any profane deity willing to spill its filth upon them.

Those limitless resources that Bayar speaks of... did he mention what they were? Of course not. He does not want you to know that these were the souls of gnomes yet unborn, that his kind stole from Garl Glittergold. The kobolds were aware of this, yet were pleased to steal souls for their dragon overlords. They present Garl's collapse of their tunnels as an assault, but leave out that they struck first, and more grievously, attempting to steal not only the present of the gnomish race, but its very future. Kurtulmak is no "freedom fighter", looking over the oppressed koboldish race... he is a terrorist, a murderer, and a willing rent-boy for any evil deity who shakes a fist... whether it be gloved in steel or dripping a few measly coppers.

Not that I dont trust you or anything, but care to give an oficial source for this ? Deities and Demigods, Races of Stone, Complete Divine, Monster Manual, Players Handbook...checked these books and couldn't find it.

Oh, and those resources ? Those were metal ores and precious stones. Much more useful and valuable than gnome souls. And those good kobolds ? You forgot, Kurtulmak led all kobolds who joined them, not because he asked, because they wanted to. Garl crushed every kobold inside the mine, regardless of alignment. And kobolds can worship any other draconic god, Bahamut included - I really dont see where this issue came from.

[Tiki Snakes]

Mark Hall; Lol. Just lol.

On a more serious note, yeah, gnomes main problem always used to be how completely they failed to fill any real place in the world. Solutions that occured to me included leaving them out altogether, or rationalising them as simply what happens when halfling casanova's manage to seduce Mrs Dwarf.

The new edition came along though, demoted them from phb1, and tied them far more in with the fey side of things. It helped quite a bit, for my mind. I don't really mind them so much these days.

[LibraryOgre]

Not that I dont trust you or anything, but care to give an oficial source for this ? Deities and Demigods, Races of Stone, Complete Divine, Monster Manual, Players Handbook...checked these books and couldn't find it.

Grand History of the Realms.

Oh, and those resources ? Those were metal ores and precious stones. Much more useful and valuable than gnome souls.

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

And those good kobolds ? You forgot, Kurtulmak led all kobolds who joined them, not because he asked, because they wanted to.

There were no good kobolds; all thirsted for gnomish souls.

Garl crushed every kobold inside the mine, regardless of alignment. And kobolds can worship any other draconic god, Bahamut included - I really dont see where this issue came from.

Kobolds perhaps CAN, but name a group that DOES.

Once kobolds stop stealing souls, eating babies, and worshiping gods of evil, even the gnomes whom they have so wronged will welcome them. But kobolds will not, because they are steeped in evil.

[Telonius]

I am a little bit puzzled at the idea that Dwarves fill the master inventor niche. I never really saw Dwarves as much of the inventive type. Master craftsmen, sure. But inventing something totally new? I'm just not seeing it. To me, a dwarf would look at some gnomish contraption and think to himself, "Too complicated, too many things that could go wrong, look at that weak point in the construction! Just give me a good axe, it's proved itself effective over hundreds of years. Leave that newfangled thing to those silly beardless folk."

[Yora]

I'm just curious. Why it seems that there are many people who dislike them (consider them annoying, ect)? I've read it has something to do with kender (and I even don't what kender is except that they are from Dragonlance)

There is elf-hate, halfling-hate, dwarf-hate... So yeah.

[Optimystik]

the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

That is... immensely creepy.

[Yora]

Not more than other creation myths.

Definately NOT more than some other creatin myths!

[LibraryOgre]

That is... immensely creepy.

Why do you think Raise Dead requires diamond dust? You have to get a soul in there SOMEHOW, and the rest of the races didn't have deities practical enough to make souls into physical objects.

I'll provide citations when I get home; I've got a PF game tonight, though.

[Bayar]

Grand History of the Realms.

You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

Should I remind you that humans, dwarves and other races that go mining for riches of the earth probably do the same thing ?

[CubeB]

Grand History of the Realms.

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

There were no good kobolds; all thirsted for gnomish souls.

Kobolds perhaps CAN, but name a group that DOES.

Once kobolds stop stealing souls, eating babies, and worshiping gods of evil, even the gnomes whom they have so wronged will welcome them. But kobolds will not, because they are steeped in evil.

Wow... I'm not sure if you're trolling, or if you had a very bad experience with Tucker's Kobolds once.

In any case, there are Kobolds who worship Good and Neutral Gods. The DM In Question just needs to point them out.

[Snake-Aes]

Personally, I like the Pathfinder gnome fluff a lot, what with their connection to all things fae.
I also want to play a gnome in greasepaint, three fingered white gloves and wielding a large wooden mallet.
Th-Th-Th-Th-Th-... That's all, folks!

Technically Golarion, the world itself, hates gnomes. They have a pathological need to entertain themselves lest they risk a Michael Jackson syndrome.

[Optimystik]

You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.

While that is true, the fact remains that the only account you have that Garl Shot First in Greyhawk is Kurtulmak's own story. Given (a) the track record of evil racial deities, and (b) Kurtulmak's ongoing dogma and associations with fiends, I am inclined to disbelieve his perspective.

In any case, there are Kobolds who worship Good and Neutral Gods. The DM In Question just needs to point them out.

Somehow, I doubt Kurtulmak or his followers would be very tolerant of such Kobolds.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I've just always viewed gnomes as unnecessary.

I don't hate them per-say, but really the only time I have ever seen someone play a gnome was when they rolled randomly.

[Bayar]

Somehow, I doubt Kurtulmak or his followers would be very tolerant of such Kobolds.

Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis. And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.

Why do you think Raise Dead requires diamond dust? You have to get a soul in there SOMEHOW, and the rest of the races didn't have deities practical enough to make souls into physical objects.

Yeah, I'm sure that gnome souls are the key ingredient for Symbol of Insanity/Fear/Death/whatever too.

[LibraryOgre]

You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.

Gods are not confined to one setting; is the Kurtulmak of the "generic" setting a different being from that of the Realms? Even the generic setting material, when not being written from a kobold points of view, puts much of the onus for the problems that the feat of Kurtulmak, due to his jealousy of Garl (q.v. Deities and Demigods).

Should I remind you that humans, dwarves and other races that go mining for riches of the earth probably do the same thing ?

They don't do so out of a lust for gnomish souls, however.

[AmberVael]

I hate gnomes because they are short, chubby, and puntable.
It should be noted that I hate halflings for the same reason (except maybe not chubby.)
Dwarves teeter in the same category (they're also hairy, which I dislike), but sometimes manage to escape, when they're not drink loving, scottish accented, or humor characters.

Kobolds, however, are weird little reptile dog things. Long live kobolds.

Yeah, I'm sure that gnome souls are the key ingredient for Symbol of Insanity/Fear/Death/whatever too.

This would explain so much.
Driving you insane? Sounds gnomish to me.
Making you freak out when they activate that deadly trap just for the hell of it? Also gnomish.
Managing to kill you with that explosion? Yeah.

[Bayar]

Gods are not confined to one setting; is the Kurtulmak of the "generic" setting a different being from that of the Realms? Even the generic setting material, when not being written from a kobold points of view, puts much of the onus for the problems that the feat of Kurtulmak, due to his jealousy of Garl (q.v. Deities and Demigods).

Actually, it was more of a pride thing. You know, for being crushed by a collapsed ceiling on the pretext of a joke...

Not from the point of view of a kobold: Player's handbook describing Garl collapsing the cavern of Kurtulmak as a joke; Deities and Demigods: same thing; Races of Stone: see Player's handbook. None of these say "It was for a just cause", more akin to "It was for the lolz". I'd be pissed off too if someone would collapse a wall over me just so he can say it was a joke, dont care about your broken shoulder.

[LibraryOgre]

Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis. And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.

Deities and Demigods page 80 summarizes much of this... such as "No kobold community is complete without a shrine to Kurtulmak." And, while Races of the Dragon talks about the unending hatred between gnome and kobold... the gnome entry in Races of Stone barely mentions kobolds, even when talking about war... I found one in a quick scan, and it was about battling kobold raiders as a duty of Garl's priesthood. Deities and Demigods, incidentally, makes it clear that raiding gnomes is the duty of a priest of Kurtulmak.

The evidence is fairly strong that Kurtulmak and Garl's relationship has more to do with "SWF" than a mutual hatred.

[Kylarra]

^: Wait, Zarus consorts with fiends? I thought he was one of those rare evil dudes who refused to engage with them.

Only from a position of superiority. ALL HAIL LORD ZARUS

[Optimystik]

Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis.

The fact that there are good dragon deities in the draconic pantheon does not mean that Kobolds worship any of them.

In fact, the three good dragon deities you mention (I assume you mean Bahamut, Hlal and Tamara?) only count Dragons among their faithful, NOT dragonbloods as some of the others do.

So you're going to need a little more evidence than that.

And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.

From page 40:

"While gnomes and halflings often integrate into other races’ societies, kobolds turn inward. The kobold deity Kurtulmak (see page 48) doesn’t allow such fraternization."

Also, from page 49:

"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, too.

[LibraryOgre]

Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

[Agrippa]

"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, too.

You mean these salamanders?

[Knaight]

I've just always viewed gnomes as unnecessary.

I don't hate them per-say, but really the only time I have ever seen someone play a gnome was when they rolled randomly.

I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.