Drowtales: The Info Dump

[HandofShadows]

It's like consulting Newton about String Theory before he even has a chance to read up on it. [/QUOTE]

A much better analogy might have been consulting Newton about physics. Newton's understanding of physics is generally correct, just like what Shashana said about demons. Yes, it is true that there are complications that can be important at times, but most of the time you wouldn't need to worry about them.

I didn't say it wasn't. You must have misunderstood what I was saying.

No, I understood what you were saying. Physics is physics. You ask about String Theory, you are asking about physics. Period. Newtonian Physics is fine for figuring out orbital paths, but Newtons understanding of reality was totally wrong and it was proven by Eienstein. Just as Shashana's understanding of demons is totally wrong as proven by Kiel’s mom and Kiel herself.

The blob certainly doesn't seem to be a glutton demon. Why wouldn't it behave differently than a glutton demon? However, a glutton demon was what destroyed Naal. The glutton demon didn't seem to have much intelligence and it did eat, so that's all consistent.

Of course, the situation in the original analogy was analogous! Yes, there are some differences; that's why it was analogous rather than identical.

Oh, thank you. I have not had a chance to pull this fallacy out very much. **False Analogy: Comparing our case to one already known and accepted as true. Distortion: the facts are made to more similar than they are) Example: "It would be no clrime for me to diverty the Nile or Nanube from its course were able to effect such a purpose. Where then is the crime of turning a few ounces of blood from their natural channel?"** That's what you are doing. You are trying to make two very different thing look much more similar than they are.

Beyond that, how would you know that any memories the red blob got would be any less of a copy anyway?

Contradict yourself much? Because that is what you have done and I really don't think you realize you are doing it. If the Glutton killed Naal, then there is no reason for it to look or act like Naal. Gluttons don't absorb anything and keep it intact. From teh page on deoms you linked to earlier. "The demons we call "gluttons" have no understanding of form, limitations, or even the physical realm enough to sustain a material frame in any sort of logical or feasible configuration." Getting eaten by a Glutton is like being put through a blender. But here we have Naalblob who's memories are very much intact.

She didn't. That has been obvious for a long time.

Yes, I get this. Your mind's made up and I shouldn't bother you with any facts that might contradict that because you wll just ignore them. Just as you totaly ignored Naalblobs takeover of the dying drow ending up looking like Naal.

[eschmenk]

I'm not going to bother rebutting point by point. It boils down to this: Naal was not a disgusting infantile red blob that was created as some sort of weird fanservice for certain people. The red blob is not Naal.

[HandofShadows]

Spoiler

Show

Well that's ONE way to start off a time jump. We *the readers* just go kicked out of the comic. I think they said it would be 15 years DT time before we can get back in.

[eschmenk]

Since I use an RSS reader to go directly to the comic page, I couldn't figure out what was missing. The archive that Kern said was missing was present as far as I could tell.

I get what you mean. My main displeasure is the breaking of immersion by giving room to "and it's you, the readers, who with your good intentions and feels saved Naalglobe!". There's actually a lot of things I don't like about the friend demons/princes, like the fact that they only can speak to Kiel and seem rather inconsequential (does anyone ever comment on them?). Or that we never saw the moment they became visible, which I guess was a rather important point.

Well, they're gone now!

I thought that Kern having Sha'sana get rid of them would be too much to hope for, but he actually did it! I preferred it when when we couldn't tell if Kiel was really breaking the fourth wall or if she was just nuts. Good riddance to them, IMO.

The red blob developed a spiral eye. I'm not sure what that means, but I'm somewhat afraid that we might not get rid of it now. Oh, well, we should be close enough to the end that it can't be all that annoying.

I don't know what the talk about a time skip is about, though. This would be a truly bizarre time to have a time skip. Is Kern just going to punt on the idea of giving the comic any sort of a climax?

This is just my personal taste, BTW. If I am reading a story I just want to read a story, not to have a major character spend its whole existence winking at me.

And of course, Kiel is the character who happens to be present the moment when Sha'sana finally does the thing she's been preparing to do for thousands of years. Honestly, Kiel wasn't as annoying as she sometimes is, but it figures it would be her who would be present.

[Vinyadan]

I think Kern is working on page 160, so this isn't the end of the chapter. I do wonder what's going to happen next, what we'll see, if and when there will be a time skip... I don't feel like it's needed. I want to see what Sillice will do about the elevator she's spotted, and Nishi's subtlety in running a 50 tons golem towards Snadhya. As well as Khaless being a healer, and many other things. If it weren't for the readers on their forums screaming "TIME SKIP" for months, I would never think of it as possible.

About the swirly eye, I have no idea of what it does, but it looks similar to when she was hungry. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=11142 http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=11119

This also explains a few things. It's not the "evolved" against the "tainted", it's the "standard" against the "downgraded". I guess Snadhya found the Vloz family to be of interest because they had tainted among themselves before tainting (opposed to merging) was cool (i.e. widespread by her), and she recognized its uses. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=449 Notice that she still wasn't tainted when she knocked at their door. Kiel's mother and Kiel also weren't tainted, but the golem engineer was; while some of them might have got themselves tainted as a mistake (not being able to control a summoned demon), Senekha almost surely had done things deliberately. Kiel's mother only got tainted right before dying because of Kharla [edit: the text says that she was tainted even earlier, but the images seem not to].

How and when Kiel got tainted, and how she managed to evolve, is another problem. I don't think we ever got an answer, and, while the Vel'Vloz were the best equipped to reach such a result in the 15 years after Senekha died, I don't think we've ever seen anyone else doing that in their clan. She could have been tainted in a freak accident, or by Senekha or a random summoner, or in Orthobbae.

So, now, I guess Sashana was capable enough to develop a way to directly go with merging, instead of tainting, and Snadhya instead developed a way to go from the parasitism into merging, and also the ritual to safely cause parasitism. The question of whether Snadhya's merging is the same as Sashana's is also open: Shinae got weird (or weirder) after merging.

About surviving the tainting process, I don't know that is meant by that. I understand tainting as a form of parasitism. Light taint = the demon causes physical problems like stunted growth or infertility or maybe nothing that can directly be seen, besides a shortened lifespan. However, the demon doesn't have much immediate access to bodily or spiritual functions. Heavy taint = the demon has access to these functions or is very near to gain it. The tainted is still conscious, but may experience problems like insensibility, loss of bodily control, body mutates (Naal, Berserkers, the Golem Pilot). Demon takes over: the tainted dies. His body keeps moving but is now controlled by the demon. Merging = none of these problems, although it only seems to occur in crazy people.

Naal survived the tainting event, sported heavy tainting, but was killed when her demon took over (and she got a sword through her chest).

The reason why the demon took over Naal's traits after it occupied a new body is that the demon has her memories, and changes bodies according to them. We see demons change bodies they occupy all the time, since the Prologue, to the Sargh patrol with Koil's girlfriend, to the summoners in the Black Dragon and even the exploding teacher which turned into a glutton demon. Diva also has Diva's memories, and she gave Diva's traits to Ragini.

What Sashana says looks like she knows the deal. Yes, she might be ignorant about the friend / wild demons (about which we also are ignorant, since we never were given anything resembling an in comic explanation for them), but a glutton demon? She surely knows about them. And even in this page, http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=615 we only see demons in drow bodies, which I assume they took over.

[HandofShadows]

I think Kern is working on page 160, so this isn't the end of the chapter. I do wonder what's going to happen next, what we'll see, if and when there will be a time skip... I don't feel like it's needed. I want to see what Sillice will do about the elevator she's spotted, and Nishi's subtlety in running a 50 tons golem towards Snadhya. As well as Khaless being a healer, and many other things. If it weren't for the readers on their forums screaming "TIME SKIP" for months, I would never think of it as possible.

You're right. I had forgotten there are more pages in this chapter. As for the swirly eye thing we have always seen it in characters who are merge. Keil, Snads, Sha'sana and Diva.

As Naal, you are aware that people have "beaten" the demon right? It's VERY rare, but Vel'Cahal did. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=6993 (And Vel'Cahal was a guy). And you like others have missed that you contradiced yourself. Glutton demons do not take on the forms of those they take over. We see this plainly with all the Gluttons. They turn into a flesh beast with four legs and a mouth. But Naal didn't. She kept her upper body. Also the BaalGlutton manifested two different personalities. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=10585 One that wanted to eat Keil and one that didn't. In fact Keil seems to have "woke up" Naal. Now why woud there be two different minds/personalities at work if the glutton demon took over? This all points to something NOT standard happening. I will say it's not solid proof. But it's enough to leave a door open.

As for the friend demons we actually have a lot of info on them. First of all they aren't demons. It would be closer to say they are a form of summon. I mean look at the Forum Blob for a moment. It's white and black. Every known demon we have seen had red eyes. The the Forum Blob and the Princes? White eyes. So not a demon. In fact I would say a more accurate description would be avatar. The Forum Blob and Princes are creation of Keil and "powered" by the unconciouse desires of the forum members. They are not "real", just projection from this side. The best example of this is Bast. She was "killed" at one point. But she woke up and she was doing accounting. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=10605

[Vinyadan]

From my point of view, the Vel'Cahal in the puppet story is just a case in which a heavily tainted person put up with the demon long enough for it to take up his memories and intentions and guide the body to do what the previous owner would have wanted. That's how I understand the caption of panel 2. Her soul wasn't there.

Have we ever seen a demon taking over someone after some 5 years spent heavily tainting someone else, and 15 more controlling her body? This is why I think even a glutton demon can do it, we still have to see one take a second host after a long permanence in the first. But don't say "you contradicted yourself" if I didn't, just say "I think you are wrong because of this and that." My opinion is that gluttons are too common for Sashana not to know how they function.

The way I see it, Kiel woke up Naal in the sense that she caused the demon to accept her memories, which it was already perceiving, as its own, which brought it to stop its basest instinct when they conflicted too hard with those memories ("eating friends").

What's the forum blob? We can only make guesses about the friend demons, almost no one has told us anything about them, but thank you for that bit of info you found in the comic. I really hate the idea that they are just fourth wall breaks with otherwise no connection to the setting and can only be explained looking through external material. And, if demons only had red eyes, Sashana probably would have said "these weird things", rather than "wild demons". She is supposed to be an expert after all, even though I really can't think of other demons without red eyes. That, or she sees demons everywhere.

[eschmenk]

The reason why the demon took over Naal's traits after it occupied a new body is that the demon has her memories, and changes bodies according to them. We see demons change bodies they occupy all the time, since the Prologue, to the Sargh patrol with Koil's girlfriend, to the summoners in the Black Dragon and even the exploding teacher which turned into a glutton demon. Diva also has Diva's memories, and she gave Diva's traits to Ragini.

Well, according to the official wiki page gluttons are just too stupid to figure out what else they should look like. They tend to wind up with multiple organs that were probably taken directly from (or maybe copied from) the drows they consumed. That is why they can be so hard to kill.

Naal's glutton demon seemed to act consistent with that. After it ate a bunch of long-dead teachers' bodies, it looked like it had some parts that looked like they came from Naal and other parts that came from the bodies of the teacher it ate. That was probably just the easiest thing for it to do. Later it seemed to harden itself, probably after the fleshy parts wore out too quickly. The huge glutton demon in Snady's home seemed to have hardened itself the same way.

"Exploding teacher which turned into a glutton demon?" I don't doubt that happened, but I can't remember it (and many other things).

[Vinyadan]

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=3134

No one expected that!

[eschmenk]

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=3134

No one expected that!

Thanks.

"But it was bound to happen sooner or later" So I guess, if they knew enough, they would have expected that. In hindsight, that was probably Snady making what she was doing seem safer than it really was.

-----------

Unfortunately, I tend to think of additional things to say after I post, so I wind up editing my posts a lot. I think I added the following to my previous post after you replied, but before I noticed you had, so I'm moving it here. Apologies if I wind up repeating stuff you already saw.

I think Kern is working on page 160, so this isn't the end of the chapter. I do wonder what's going to happen next, what we'll see, if and when there will be a time skip... I don't feel like it's needed. I want to see what Sillice will do about the elevator she's spotted, and Nishi's subtlety in running a 50 tons golem towards Snadhya. As well as Khaless being a healer, and many other things. If it weren't for the readers on their forums screaming "TIME SKIP" for months, I would never think of it as possible.

Yeah, I think it would be bad storytelling. It's true that there is to be a time skip after Kern wraps up the current storylines, but that would be a jump to a new set of stories.

About the swirly eye, I have no idea of what it does, but it looks similar to when she was hungry. http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=11142 http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=11119

Thanks for pointing it out. Maybe it's just supposed to make the blob look dizzy or weak?

What's the forum blob? We can only make guesses about the friend demons, almost no one has told us anything about them, but thank you for that bit of info you found in the comic. I really hate the idea that they are just fourth wall breaks with otherwise no connection to the setting and can only be explained looking through external material. And, if demons only had red eyes, Sashana probably would have said "these weird things", rather than "wild demons". She is supposed to be an expert after all, even though I really can't think of other demons without red eyes. That, or she sees demons everywhere.

Demons are beings from other realities that enter the DT reality via gates. Since the readers (us) also come from a different reality, it makes sense that the readers would be classified as demons if we manifested there. The friend demons are supposedly readers who somehow manifested in the DT reality. Supposedly, all of us do that and that's how we know what's going on in the story.

Yeah, it's silly and annoying. I'm glad to be done with that.

[Vinyadan]

Thanks for the reposts. About the exploding teacher, I now think it might have been deliberately done by Snadhya. She can control seeds, and she killed a lot of Belds, who already are few, making them even weaker.

[eschmenk]

Thanks for the reposts. About the exploding teacher, I now think it might have been deliberately done by Snadhya. She can control seeds, and she killed a lot of Belds, who already are few, making them even weaker.

Yes, that could be. It would have been obvious to Snady that the Belds wouldn't ever be receptive to her ideas.

[Vinyadan]

New comic.

Spoiler

Show

Sashana might not be the best person possible, but she suddenly seems better than anyone else in the comic.

[eschmenk]

New comic.

Spoiler

Show

Sashana might not be the best person possible, but she suddenly seems better than anyone else in the comic.

Well, that was a big disappointment!

I always thought that it's weird how DT mixes elf pron and violence with childishness. Granted, you have pay to see the real pron, but Kern shows plenty of T&A in the main story at times. We even had a bit of it on the previous page. Then on today's page, what Kiel said to the readers reminds me of an adult entertainer entertaining kindergarten-aged children. What age group is this thing aimed for?

I realize that manga tends to mix sex and childishness more than Western comics, and Kern considers this to be manga, but still, it's weird to me. And I could do without so much childishness.

[Vinyadan]

I agree, and there are mixes that work well (Dragon Ball) and others which don't.

Anyway, was Nau saved by being short? Or does she count everyone who isn't some 100 years old as child? Or all drow, which she called "our children, the drow" in the Prologue?

Also, Kiel, what the hell does it mean "being truly alone" when you have someone right there fighting against a legend to save your life? It's the opposite of being alone! And also ungrateful!

I am now wishing Daydream made more money, so that this stuff and all fanservice could remain there.

[HandofShadows]

What she is saying is that she will kill him (for what he did) rather than him being young stopping her.

[Vinyadan]

Really? I guess I fully misread it then.

[eschmenk]

Really? I guess I fully misread it then.

Not fully. Nau's youthfulness has saved him so far.

Shasana only talked about the past, not about what she will do with Nau. She seems to be making up her mind about that. She would find it very difficult to justify killing him, but it was really important to her that she sealed all demons. Either she won't try to kill him or she probably will continue to delay long enough it will become moot.

Kern: "But [Nau] hesitate to take the last step ; to kill her.
Shasana on the other hand might not hesitate much."

So we don't know what she will do. It's supposed to be a suspenseful situation, I think. It would help if we cared about what happens to Nau. Kiel would probably go on and on about how she was robbed of her princeling, so I think we should be better off if he remains alive, but I'm not sure.

Regarding your earlier question, she called Nau "Sharen boy" on the previous page. I think she's so old and so out of touch that she might think that Nau is still school aged or, from her vantage point, he's so young that the distinction doesn't really matter. You might have to be a few centuries old to not be a child in her mind. The fact that he's a Drow probably doesn't help, but I doubt that she would refer to Snady as a girl.

ADDED: Looking back at her conversation with Lu, she referred to the Drow as "our dark children," so yeah, maybe any Drow, even Snady, would be a child.

She does seem very reluctant to harm anyone. Even people who trespassed or who destroyed her golems or attacked her. That's probably why she's having trouble wrapping her mind around the concept of killing Nau.

[Vinyadan]

Unrelated to current happenings: is it just me, or does anyone else find that Chirinide's outfit is very similar to that of Samurai Shodown's Charotte?

[HandofShadows]

Vaguely. Despite all the fan service in Drowtales Kern has spent a LOT of time making the armor for female characters be realistic as he can.

Spoiler

Show

Now we see a very pissed off Shasana going for the kill. But the forum blob is protecting them and she clearly has no clue on why. It seems oddly small though and I wonder if some parts of it aren't off doing something else to help.

[eschmenk]

Spoiler

Show

Now we see a very pissed off Shasana going for the kill. But the forum blob is protecting them and she clearly has no clue on why. It seems oddly small though and I wonder if some parts of it aren't off doing something else to help.

Is she? Her first two attacks against Nau didn't even hurt him badly. Then she allowed the friend demons to intercept her later attacks, even though she can control them. She certainly doesn't seem to be trying very hard to kill Nau and Kiel if that's what she's trying to do. OTOH, she's doing more than the minimum necessary to scare them away. Maybe she want to herd them all the way to the elevator? Would she toss them out if it's not there?

There didn't seem to be any consensus in the forum about it either. Kern's artwork doesn't make it possible to know what she's trying to do yet so different people are going to have different opinions.

[Vinyadan]

I don't think she's trying to actually kill them, but I think she's doing things that could kill them if they don't get away fast enough.

We aren't sure of what kind of magic she uses, but we know that air magic can easily smother people, and we have seen what someone like Sarv would do if she wanted to kill someone with earth magic: surround them with rock and squash them.

I think she's doing the equivalent of an angry man who doesn't really want to kill you, but he also doesn't care if you survive and is running after you hitting you with a club.

Or maybe she's just worried about not damaging the fridge and will blast them to oblivion once they are far enough.

[eschmenk]

I think she's doing the equivalent of an angry man who doesn't really want to kill you, but he also doesn't care if you survive and is running after you hitting you with a club.

Yes, if I'd had to guess, I would have guessed that, too. She wants them gone, but she's angry and because that punch hurt, she wants to make sure they feel some pain, too. But as I already indicated, I'm not sure.

Or maybe she's just worried about not damaging the fridge and will blast them to oblivion once they are far enough.

I don't think she needs to blast them to oblivion or would want to do that. They are heading toward the elevator. If she really wants them dead, she can knock them into the hole if the elevator isn't there, or let them get on the elevator and knock them off of it as soon as it starts descending if it is. They would die, but they would die back where they belonged and she would somewhat remove herself from their deaths that way. It would would be a very neat way to dispose of them from her point of view. If she were intending to kill them, I think that's how she would do it.

I wouldn't be surprised if she's hasn't completely made up her mind yet. Of course, they will probably either run into Silice or Fame escaping from Silice at the elevator and any current intentions will wind up being moot, anyway.

[Vinyadan]

Concerning panel 7: I guess we just reached a new low in Drowtales writing.

[CWater]

Okay, you guys clearly don't like Naalblob, the demon princes, forum cloud or any other of such, that has now been clearly established.

About Shashana, I'm not really sure what to make of her. Is she just a crazy hermit holed up in her tower clutching to the past, uncaring of the troubles of today. Or I'll s there actually a real reason for what she's doing? Hard to say at this point really.

[HandofShadows]

What the DT forum hasn't figured out and it seem that no one here has is that the Forum Blob is NOT what protected Keil. The Forum Blob did take some of the hits, but if you look on panel 5 you will see Shashana has captured us again. What I think is happening is that *Naal* is absorbing the manna being tossed at Keil. After all that is what demons do (Snad's demons did it to protect her back in Chapter 44) . In other words Shas is powering up Naal. Which may be a good or very BAD thing.

[eschmenk]

Concerning panel 7: I guess we just reached a new low in Drowtales writing.

Maybe it's the mood I'm in, but I thought this was another really funny page. Kiel and Nau wanted to leave; Kiel asked for help; Shashana tried to help them leave. What else were you expecting, Kiel? Nau and Kiel are about as bad as Silice, well, minus the murderous rampages, I guess. They are standing right there between the hole and someone who keeps trying to push them with air. Gee, can't they figure out that remaining in that spot talking may not be such a great idea? (Granted, that aren't any great locations to flee to, but I think I'd try to get around to the back side or up close to a wall and make it a little difficult for Shashana, or get down on my knees and beg or something.) And yes, you have Kiel talking to "us" again as if she thinks she's Mr. Rogers, but with her weird accent. And Kiel doesn't even notice that Nau has no protection anymore. And what the hell is going on with Shashana? Can't she calm down a little? Is she now driven by simple frustration?

What the DT forum hasn't figured out and it seem that no one here has is that the Forum Blob is NOT what protected Keil. The Forum Blob did take some of the hits, but if you look on panel 5 you will see Shashana has captured us again. What I think is happening is that *Naal* is absorbing the manna being tossed at Keil. After all that is what demons do (Snad's demons did it to protect her back in Chapter 44) . In other words Shas is powering up Naal. Which may be a good or very BAD thing.

Kiel is not reacting as if the forum blob was captured. Apparently she either missed something that she normally wouldn't have missed, or that one panel doesn't mean that all friend demons were captured. I doubt that people are quite as oblivious as you seem to think. Some probably missed the possibility that the forum blob was captured and the other blob protected Kiel, but others probably are just unsure about what to say on the subject or just chose to not say anything about it.

I didn't see any indication that any manna was absorbed by anything. From the artwork, it looked like the manna was still converted into air pressure. It looked like Kiel was shielded from air, not manna, to me. I think few if any people would have reached the conclusion that you did, so if you happen to be right about the red blob being powered up, then I'd say that you did realize something that the other people didn't.

-------------

New comic (up tuesday): Shashana figures out that the readers are masochistic or at least have really bad taste. Nau is as useful as he usually is. Well, at least he's beginning to question Kern's writing, but he doesn't seem to understand that if Kiel lets go, he will get the break he asked for. Many of them, in fact. Unless, of course, he pulls a Sillice and lands in a bed.

Final panel: After ignoring Kiel and Nau for the entire page, Shashana decides to sneak up and goose Kiel. Nau had better hope that Kiel isn't too surprised. (Just in case: jk)

[HandofShadows]

I had actually been thinking this could happen. (Wish I had posted it now). No more red blob. Guess the past few pages have whosn I was correct on a few things.

[eschmenk]

No more red blob.

As much as I would like to think that the red blob is gone, I've gotten my hopes up before and been disappointed. Kern is indicating that unfortunately this is the red blob demon, just in the shape of Naal now. It found a home inside Kiel and turned into a friend demon somehow. According to Kern, it has Naal's shape just because it thinks that's the right shape. (It's apparently still is so stupid and confused it still thinks it actually is Naal. )

I would love to hope that this "Naal" would help guide and counterbalance Kiel as well as the original one did. Only time will tell. Maybe changing the demon's shape will make Kern write for it differently. It's kind of late for that now, though, and the other friend demons are merely sycophantic enablers that Kiel talks to as if they are in pre-school, so I'm not going to get my hopes up much.

Making the new form come out of Kiel's back seems like a euphemism. I think it really came out of a body part a little further south of that.

Kern says that originally there wasn't supposed to have been a red blob. It's too bad that he didn't stick with the original plan. It would have been much less painful that way.

[Vinyadan]

"It's not a true body, they can't really pick up things or talk". No, they can just grab people and say things.

And so we have a beaten dead horse in its fourth form. And the stoic, elaborated Naal we knew from her childhood is definitely turned into a speech impaired, no agency demon who believes to be her? Argh.

Nice art, otherwise.