Spell Points - Terrible idea or just a sorta bad idea?

[Tyndmyr]

Playing a wizard in a current campaign that uses them, despite begging the GM not to, citing balance reasons. They are...powerful.

Basically, there is no reason to ever, ever play a sorcerer under it. You have all the advantages of a sorcerer, as a wizard, with even more spells available to select from. Sorcerers do not get additional spell points. It flat out gives you spont casting, spont metamagic, and the ability to nova.

Plus, you can use first level pearls of power forever, as batteries to power your highest spells.

From a management perspective, it adds one more number you have to track in addition to your prepared spells. While spont metamagic helps offset this for metamagic users, it's pretty much never a gain in terms of bookkeeping, and often is a loss.

Plus, they never bothered to define the interaction of spell points with all the various existing ways of boosting spellcasting. They hit up specialist, but didn't bother to make that solution a general rule.

Why does this poorly balanced system exist?

[Marnath]

Sorceror does get more spell points per day....

[Milskidasith]

Sorceror does get more spell points per day....

With a significant amount less per day than they would have if you actually converted their current spells per day into spell points, along with having less spells known (still) and no spontaneous advantage.

[Snake-Aes]

great question...

And on the meta thing...just copy metapsionic feats. Maybe put another +1 there since you aren't spending Focus.

[Tyndmyr]

I shouldn't have said "no extra". "barely any extra" would be more accurate.

It's keyed to one extra spell of the highest level the sorc can cast. That's literally it. That's rather underwhelming.

[El Dorado]

I got the impression that this option was intended for groups that favored wizards over sorcerers (for whatever reason). The disparity becomes a non-issue if your only arcane casters are wizards.

[Nick_mi]

this isn't 3.5e right?

[Aroka]

this isn't 3.5e right?

It probably is, though?

[Tyndmyr]

I got the impression that this option was intended for groups that favored wizards over sorcerers (for whatever reason). The disparity becomes a non-issue if your only arcane casters are wizards.

Well, there's still the balance issue of giving wizards more power. I could see that being an issue even if you don't have a spont caster in the party.

[Elfin]

The idea is quite good, at least in my opinion, but I agree that the actual execution is very poor.

Maybe you should consider pointing your DM to a more balanced system for this sort of casting, like DragoonWraith's Mana?

[El Dorado]

Well, there's still the balance issue of giving wizards more power. I could see that being an issue even if you don't have a spont caster in the party.

For an optimized wizard, absolutely. Terrible, delicious power.

However, if the DM likes to vary your encounters (dungeon crawls followed by large scale battles followed ambushing the big bad, etc), it provides much desired flexibility. A sorcerer's really not going to cut it in those campaigns because the party relies on the arcane caster to do so much more.

[Draz74]

Why does this poorly balanced system exist?

Because someone writing UA got wind of some fans who were jealous of the mechanical elegance of the Psionics system, but refused to convert away from Vancian casting for flavor reasons; and he spent five minutes writing a cheap attempt at stealing the best facets of Psionics to overhaul normal casting.

[Ashiel]

Because someone writing UA got wind of some fans who were jealous of the mechanical elegance of the Psionics system, but refused to convert away from Vancian casting for flavor reasons; and he spent five minutes writing a cheap attempt at stealing the best facets of Psionics to overhaul normal casting.

And failed doing so.

But in all seriousness; it's just psionics only bad.

[Quietus]

The worst is when a group doesn't really understand how spell points work. My current group - I'm kinda new with them, only been in four sessions so far, decidedly the strongest optimizer at the table, and understand the rules better than they do - uses spell points. And instead of preparing spells, they take it as "can cast any spell off the caster's list, ever". And all spells are automatically "augmented" to the max.

Then again, this is also a group where favored tactics for spellcasters involve fireballs, magic missiles, and other similar direct damage, maximized when possible. In this case, because they AREN'T really abusing the system, it doesn't make too much difference... except that they have the ability to conjure up any spell available to them at any time, like when they need Dismissal.. which they'd never normally prepare. But it irks me, a lot, and I don't feel comfortable mentioning it yet 'cause I'm still too new.

[Ashiel]

The worst is when a group doesn't really understand how spell points work. My current group - I'm kinda new with them, only been in four sessions so far, decidedly the strongest optimizer at the table, and understand the rules better than they do - uses spell points. And instead of preparing spells, they take it as "can cast any spell off the caster's list, ever". And all spells are automatically "augmented" to the max.

Then again, this is also a group where favored tactics for spellcasters involve fireballs, magic missiles, and other similar direct damage, maximized when possible. In this case, because they AREN'T really abusing the system, it doesn't make too much difference... except that they have the ability to conjure up any spell available to them at any time, like when they need Dismissal.. which they'd never normally prepare. But it irks me, a lot, and I don't feel comfortable mentioning it yet 'cause I'm still too new.

That reminds me of when I came close to playing in a game where the DM said he allowed psionics. He then sprung on me that "because psionics are so overpowered" he was adding a will save to "disbelieve" any psionic effect to every psionic power (so if you blast an opponent, they get to make a will save to make it all go away); but spellcasters would be using the Recharge Magic Rules.

I realized that the DM was an idiot, and told him I wasn't interested.

[sdream]

Spell points are a wonderful idea hamstrung by giving the most powerful and flexible classes more power and flexibility. I use a similar system to spell points that reduces caster power while retaining full flexibility (replaces mage and sorcerer) the system allows many lower level spells, and fewer high level ones.

Mage progression for max spell level (1/2 caster level, rounding up).

However, on odd levels when they master a new level of spell, casting this level of spell drains them completely (although it is always free to cast 0 level spells). On even levels they can cast 2 of these max level spells per day.

Instead of casting their highest level spells, they can cash them in for three spells of the next lower level. So a 5th level caster can cast one 3rd level spell, or 3 2nd level spells, or 9 first level spells, or 6 1st and one 2nd.

The only bonus spells come from pearls of power, 1k for a level 1 spell, 3k for a 2nd, 9k for a 3rd, 27k 4th, 81k 5th (notice it ramps up much faster than pearls for higher level spells, and all levels are equal value for the money as they can be cashed in or recombined).

Since bonus spells don't come from stats, how do stats work?

Charisma modifier = Save DC bonus
Int and Wisdom mods = bonus spells prepared

Moving away from vancian casting, you may cast any prepared spell repeatedly, and it only becomes unprepared if you chose to prepare a different one in that slot.

All casters have slots equal to their max spell level, plus their int AND wis modifiers.

So a 5th level caster with an int of 14 and a wis of 12 has 3+2+1 or 6 spell slots to prepare spells in. He may prepare any 6 spells, but may only cast prepared spells.

Preparing a spell takes one minute of concentration and your spellbook (possible, but very unlikely in combat).

Because of the massive reduction in spells per day and spells prepared (and a dash of multiple attribute dependance) folks said this was significantly more balanced than standard casters, let alone spell point casters. There are a few more perks, just for ease of use and a bit of oomph:

- metamagic is applied when casting with no time increase
- all metamagiced save DCs are as the level cast
- heighten metamagic increases effective caster level by 2 per application

The following spells are considered always prepared (without taking slots):
level 0 spell - Detect Magic
level 1 spell - Identify
level 2 spell - See Invisibility
level 3 spell - Arcane Sight
level 4 spell - Scrying
level 5 spell - Permanency
level 6 spell - True Seeing
level 7 spell - Limited Wish
level 8 spell - Moment of Prescience
level 9 spell - Wish

Compare the ease of preparing a 18th level caster of this type each day:

9,9,5,3,1,1 (spell power from level and pearls)

Choose any 9 spells plus int+wis mod from your spellbook to have available at a moments notice to spend your power on.

VS traditional 18th level caster - choose over 40 spells of varying levels with preset metamagic.

VS a spell point 18th level caster - choose over 40 spells of varying level and cast ungodly amounts of spells (15 Wishes per day, Yay!)

[Quietus]

That reminds me of when I came close to playing in a game where the DM said he allowed psionics. He then sprung on me that "because psionics are so overpowered" he was adding a will save to "disbelieve" any psionic effect to every psionic power (so if you blast an opponent, they get to make a will save to make it all go away); but spellcasters would be using the Recharge Magic Rules.

I realized that the DM was an idiot, and told him I wasn't interested.

Well, in this case, I at least see that the casters are not, by any means, dominating the game. It's also gestalt, with the option to "buy" feats with experience.. which is voted on as a group, and the whole group buys feats at the same time. We've got around 14 extra feats at level 9, each. Allows for some very high-power options, admittedly, but the casters love their maximized direct damage spells (in one case, purified fireballs, which is convenient). I've had to back off a little bit because my dungeoncrashing fighter//barbarian duergar with 17 strength, a couple extra enlarges per day, and Quicken SLA - Enlarge was overshadowing the rest of the party, who have mostly gestalted various forms of full casters. I've instead turned my eye toward defensive options, mostly using bonus feats to buy Greater Resilience and other things that keep me alive. DR of 4/-, along with strong fort/will saves, good HP, and Duergar's immunities have been quite handy so far.

The game is fun, it's just.. not necessarily right within my preferred zone of playing. Which is fine, I just make my own fun out of it.

[Toptomcat]

I gotta agree with those who say that psionics are spell points done right, to the point that I'm puzzled why someone would choose to go with those poorly thought out, tacked-on spell points rules rather than simply reflavoring the entire psionics system wholesale.

[jiriku]

I used the spell point system once in a game setting where wizards were banned. Even with the restricted spell selections, casters could continuously nova off their highest-level spell slots. The high-level sorcerer villain was utterly impossible to defeat. I like the idea, but I'm never touching that particular setting of mechanics again, not with an 11-foot pole.

[dsmiles]

It all depends on your definition of spell points. If, by 'spell points' you mean 'takes non-lethal damage to cast spells (a la The Slayers d20),' then I like spell points. If, by 'spell points' you mean 'spell points as laid out in UA,' I dislike spell points.

[Tyndmyr]

I used the spell point system once in a game setting where wizards were banned. Even with the restricted spell selections, casters could continuously nova off their highest-level spell slots. The high-level sorcerer villain was utterly impossible to defeat. I like the idea, but I'm never touching that particular setting of mechanics again, not with an 11-foot pole.

Look at the two metamagic subsystems...it gets even worse. Both are spont, which is handy in itself, giving casters yet more flexibility, but one of the systems has no level adjustment on MM. It "balances" this by limiting them to 3/day.

IE, three times as good as the swift metamagics. So, you need no cheese at all to do quickened twinned spells. You just need quicken and twin. This, combined with the nova ability already granted by spell points is ludicrous. Full casters go up at least a tier.

[Kish]

Well, if they go up a tier from Tier 1, they become Tier 0, so they cease to exist.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

i like the implementation of spell points only in a system like midnight, where magic has been incedibly gimped and given to pretty much everyone through a feat tree

[hamishspence]

This:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164896

is an interesting take- appears to hybridize the spell point system with ToB's manuever recovery system.

High spammability, but some spells tie up your points while they are active- like buffs.

[Roderick_BR]

Because someone though wizards were not good enough to play. Doesn't it happens a lot with every book made? Someone at WotC thinks that wizards are "too weak", and makes books with dozens of new wizard spells, feats, whatever, to make them way more powerful than before.

Also, direct damage spells are the only "nerfed" thing under the spell point system :\

Suggestion: All spells, except direct damage ones, uses the increased cost. And add a limit of how many spells you can learn of each level, and get rid of the sorcerer class, since, as you said, SP mixes up wizard and sorcerer into a single thing.

[Sliver]

And makes books with dozens of new wizard spells, feats, whatever, to make them way more powerful than before.

New wizard spells, most of which didn't increase wizard power, only gave a bit more options, which were mostly ignored for the base spells anyway. It is well known that core had most of the powerful wizard spells. Pretty much same for feats. And the whatever is a nice addition, but there is no whatever to add to wizards. Spells and feats, and items aren't increasing wizard power that much and aren't really added with every book as much as spells and feats are.

[ericgrau]

More options = more power. And while spontaneous casting doesn't give them anything new in theory, in practice it's an omfg power boost. B/c in theory you might still have a spell, in practice you will have that spell... multiple times if need be.

I didn't realize spell points were that bad until I was given the option of spell points or not, and saw that there was absolutely no reason to say "not". Not even indifference (if it were, say, only a slight benefit). It's way better.