Working out staggered gestalt stats.

[Paganboy28]

How do you work out staggered gestalt stats?

Say for example:

Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Rogue
Fighter // Rogue
Cleric // Rogue

Just an example not an actual character.

Would you take whichever side has the highest BAB, saves, etc...

[Snake-Aes]

The default gestalt rule is: overlap? Pick best!
So you stack spellcasting. Use the best saves, the best bab, stack the features that are made to stack and so on. A fighter wizard would have d10 hit die, 2 good saves, full bab, a bunch of bonus (fighter) feats and wizard spells, familiar and wizard feats.

[Satyr]

Gestalt should usually be used with the fractional BAB/Save rules from Unknown Arcana. They make the whole matter a lot simpler and easier to manage.

[cheezewizz2000]

Take the best from both sides, so Cleric 3/Fighter 3 would have:

3xd10 HD
Fort +3
Ref +1
Will +3
CL 3
BAB 3
2 bonus feats (Fighter 1st, Fighter 2nd)
Turn Undead

Swordsaged...

[Paganboy28]

In the example I used...

Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Rogue
Fighter // Rogue
Cleric // Rogue

Do you do it on a level by level basis or work out the stats for each side?

So Rogue 4th vs Cleric 1? or is it the overall character level?

So Cleric 5 vs Rogue 5?

If its just a Cleric 3/Rogue 3 then thats easy but when you start mixing classes it gets confusing.

So in that example...

Level 1 - 2 is easy as its straight comparison.
Level 3 is level 3 Fighter vs Level 1 Rogue
Level 4 is Level 4 Fighter vs Level 2 Rogue
Level 5 is Level 1 Cleric vs Level 3 Rogue

Is that right?

So on side 1 the BAB is +5 and on side 2 the BAB is +3 meaning I take the best BAB overall?

[Mongoose87]

You work it out each level.

[Snake-Aes]

It's just like normal multiclassing. A fighter 3 doesn't suddenly lose all bab by taking rogue 1, does he?

[Rad]

You work it out each level.

No you don't.

You get the best from your two overall sides at all times, which does not mean that on each level-up you take the best fo the two levels you're adding to the build.
To clarify, your example:

Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Wizard
Fighter // Rogue
Fighter // Rogue
Cleric // Rogue

Has a BAB of +4 (fighter/cleric has +4, wiz/rogue has +3), not +5. The +1BAB that you get as Rogue 3 does not go on your highest side and is then wasted.

I think you have to keep a class on the same side at all times but I'm not sure if that is part of the actual rules or just a measure to keep things sane (as sane as gestalt can be anyway. Or D&D for that matter).

[Holocron Coder]

No you don't.

You get the best from your two overall sides at all times, which does not mean that on each level-up you take the best fo the two levels you're adding to the build.
To clarify, your example:

Has a BAB of +4 (fighter/cleric has +4, wiz/rogue has +3), not +5. The +1BAB that you get as Rogue 3 does not go on your highest side and is then wasted.

I think you have to keep a class on the same side at all times but I'm not sure if that is part of the actual rules or just a measure to keep things sane (as sane as gestalt can be anyway. Or D&D for that matter).

Can you cite support for this? Every example I've seen does it level-by-level. And the second is definitely a house-rule, which may explain your thoughts on that topic.

[AmberVael]

Can you cite support for this?

Honestly, there is nothing at all to cite on the subject of multi-classed gestalt characters. It isn't ever addressed, or explained. They just assume you'll go Barbarian 20//Wizard 20 and so their explanations only work for such simplistic builds.

[kamikasei]

You get the best from your two overall sides at all times, which does not mean that on each level-up you take the best fo the two levels you're adding to the build.
...
Has a BAB of +4 (fighter/cleric has +4, wiz/rogue has +3), not +5. The +1BAB that you get as Rogue 3 does not go on your highest side and is then wasted.

This seems like a house rule to me, which is hardly surprising when it comes to gestalt, of course. Consider: if I'm understanding you correctly, by this logic a Fighter 20 // Wizard 20 would have BAB +20, while a:
Fighter//Wizard
Wizard//Fighter
...
(No, don't ask me why anyone would build something like that, it's just an illustration...)
...would have each side adding up separately to +15 and therefore only get +15 for his twenty levels.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

I agree with Vael, though. It doesn't make sense to get too legalistic about gestalt; it's a variant that was designed without taking all the implications when it was designed in to account, never mind everything released since. You can't really get "the rules" for most questions relating to it, only pointers on how to agree on the rules that apply in your game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Choose the better progression from the two classes." It doesn't let you pick whichever gets a +1 at this level as the best one, it says better progression.

In the example:
Fighter // Wizard: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Wizard: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Rogue: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Rogue: Fighter's progression is better.
Cleric // Rogue: Both progressions are equal, neither has a better progression so the player doesn't get to decide which to use, the DM does. In this case, the DM should make him use the Cleric progression for this level.

It is extremely cheesy to go something like Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Archivist 20 and expect a +20 BAB. In this case, you should use whichever overall progression is better, which would be the Fighter 1/ Wizard 19 side because it gets a point of BAB one level sooner than the Archivist side. Multiclassing a lot and switching up which class is on which side of the progression is nothing short of intentionally complicating your build in order to make your cheating less noticeable. If this happens, a fair DM would instruct the player to use the fractional BAB rules to make it easier to understand what his BAB should actually be for his current class levels.

[kamikasei]

It is extremely cheesy to go something like Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Archivist 20 and expect a +20 BAB.

Hang on, I don't think anyone's suggested such a thing so far and it doesn't seem to have much to do with the rest of what you're saying, either. Fighter 1/Wizard 19 would just get you either 19*.5 + 1 = +10 or Wizard 19 + Fighter 1 = +10.

Personally I've always found that "progression" clause to be so vague as to be essentially useless...

[Paganboy28]

"Choose the better progression from the two classes." It doesn't let you pick whichever gets a +1 at this level as the best one, it says better progression.

In the example:
Fighter // Wizard: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Wizard: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Rogue: Fighter's progression is better.
Fighter // Rogue: Fighter's progression is better.
Cleric // Rogue: Both progressions are equal, neither has a better progression so the player doesn't get to decide which to use, the DM does. In this case, the DM should make him use the Cleric progression for this level.

The cleric // rogue level how are both progressions equal? You are a 3rd level rogue compared to a 1st level cleric.

[Cog]

The cleric // rogue level how are both progressions equal? You are a 3rd level rogue compared to a 1st level cleric.

They each progress at a rate of .75 BAB per level, though.

[Noneoyabizzness]

the idea of "pick best" is why it is considered a good rule of thumb to use fractionals with any gestalting beyond 2 classes. it makes for less arguements in what is "best". also why many believe the fractional rule was put in as a sidebar in the gestalt to see the synergy and ability to put out such mathmatical fires.

fractional in fighter rogue cleric wiz example

fighter/wiz +1 bab, fort+2 1/2, ref+1/3 will +2 1/2
f/w +1 bab, fort+ 1/2, ref+1/3, will+1/2
f/rogue +1 bab, fort+1/2, ref+2 1/2, will+1/3
f/rogue +1bab, fort+1/2, ref+1/2, will+1/3
cleric/rogue =3/4 bab, fort+2 1/2 , ref+1/2, will+2 1/2

end result bab=+4 (3/4), fort=+6 (1/2), reflex+4 (1/6), will=+5 (1/6)

[Rad]

I thought it was a written rule but it wasn't. I apologize for that.
Interestingly, Unearthed Arcana says that you can't have a prestige class on both sides of your progression and that dual/progression classes like the Arcane Trickster (they make this example) can't be used. That paragraph is omitted in the SRD.
I never played, or planned to play, or made a build just for fun with the gestalt rules, so I do not think it can be said that I brought my personal house rules in. What I said comes probably from these forums.

The purpose is obviously to prevent the Wizard 20 // Fighter 1/Archivist 19 from having a +20 BAB, which is what you get proceeding level by level. (level 1: you get +1BAB from Fighter, lvl2: +1 from Wizard, lvl3: +1 from Archivist, lvl4: +1 from Wizard, ...)

[kamikasei]

Interestingly, Unearthed Arcana says that you can't have a prestige class on both sides of your progression and that dual/progression classes like the Arcane Trickster (they make this example) can't be used. That paragraph is omitted in the SRD.

No, it's there.

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

It's under "class features".

The purpose is obviously to prevent the Wizard 20 // Fighter 1/Archivist 19 from having a +20 BAB, which is what you get proceeding level by level. (level 1: you get +1BAB from Fighter, lvl2: +1 from Wizard, lvl3: +1 from Archivist, lvl4: +1 from Wizard, ...)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah, now that makes sense. For my part fractional BAB/saves always seemed simpler and better for the basic game anyway, such shenanigans not even entering in to the picture.

[Ormur]

I always use fractional bonuses with the exception that you only get the +2 bonus to good saves the first time you take a class that has it. No stacking classes with the same good saves.

If you use that then you only have to worry about every level by itself, even with complicated multiclassing on both sides.