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Thread: Flying and heavy armor
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2010-10-11, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Flying and heavy armor
Hello members of the playground, i have a player who has gotten himself a pair of wings, and i was wondering if wearing Heavy armor would slow his movement speed the same way it slows his walking speed?
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2010-10-11, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: Flying and heavy armor
Definitely. DMG and SRD should have teh answer
Note, some forms of flight, you can't fly when in heavy armor or heavily encumbered.
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2010-10-11, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
- Location
- R'lyeh
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
Yes. It reduces all of your speeds unless whatever gives it specifically states otherwise (i don't think I ever saw such exception). The armor speed penalty is shared with the load penalty.
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2010-10-12, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Flying and heavy armor
Thank you, for the answer.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2010-10-12, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
There are a few feats that can overcome that issue though. Races of the Dragon I believe.
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2010-10-12, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Flying and heavy armor
If you've gained flight due to wings, you cannot fly while wearing medium or heavy armor, at least according to Races of the Dragon.
You can overcome this with the "Reinforced Wings" (for medium armor/load) and "Heavyweight Wings" (for heavy armor/load) feats, also from Races of the Dragon. Your speed is still reduced, even with these feats.
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2010-10-12, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
Core only specifies light load and nothing about armor.
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2010-10-12, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
- Location
- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
Core doesn't actually state what happens when you are carrying more than a light load. It just says you can't fly at the listed speed. It doesn't say whether you fly at a reduced speed (per the encumbrance rules) or if you just immediately drop like a rock.
As far as armor goes, the rules treat wearing medium/heavy armor as being encumbered for all intents and purposes. I'm not entirely sure why the designers never clarified this.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
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2010-10-12, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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- Montgomery, AL
- Gender
Re: Flying and heavy armor
So a Favored Soul couldn't use the wings he gets at level 15, unless he goes from medium to heavy armor? That kinda sucks.
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2010-10-12, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2004
- Location
- Enterprise, Alabama
- Gender
Re: Flying and heavy armor
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2010-10-12, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Flying and heavy armor
The thing is, the general flight rules do state otherwise; they provide a complete set of (differing) rules for aerial movement.
Fly
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)
As Starbuck_II pointed out, the armor restriction noted in the "Normal" section of the Heavyweight Wings feat (Races of the Dragon, page 100) isn't actually the normal rule.
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2010-10-12, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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2010-10-12, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Flying and heavy armor
No, I think you're wrong there, perhaps because the authors of Races of the Dragon also got that wrong. The flight rules provide a complete replacement for movement with respect to load. Attempting to combine the armor speed reduction with flight speed reductions would necessitate annoying calculations and lead to weird combinatorial effects.
For instance, attempting to gain altitude at a diagonal (45 degree upslope, which is allowed for any maneuverability class) would use the usual D&D movement math and lead to 2/3 movement rate (every other diagonal movement costs double), which is an approximation of the actual √2/2 figure. When you look up the armor speed reduction table (which doesn't have a formula, but is approximately .69 of original speed, round to nearest 5'), and finally figure out your horizontal movement rate, you'll discover a nasty consequence of using your whole movement to gain altitude at a slope guaranteed to work: you'll instead fall to the ground if your maneuverability is less than good.Minimum Forward Speed
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement.
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2010-10-12, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
I'm getting this from the very place linked in the srd. What you are calling weird combinatorial effect doesn't exist because the speed drop from armor/load is already stated in the encumbrance section of the srd. You just look at the base speed, and find your modified speed, no mystery there. the clauses of flight there only restrict you from flying if you have a medium or heavy load. There's no clause saying "you can't fly with medium/heavy armor".
Thus if you have heavy/medium armor, but still going through a light load, nothing stops you from flying. You also get that flight speed reduced according to the armor/load speed table.Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-10-12 at 12:04 PM.
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2010-10-12, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Location
- Enterprise, Alabama
- Gender
Re: Flying and heavy armor
Actually, it is Armor or Load: they don't stack: they replace each other in respect to speed reduction.
Example:
So Heavy armor and light load = reduced to 20 ft (no run)
Meduim armor and heavy load = Reduced to 20 ft (still can run).
Only Heavy armor stops you from running unlike a heavy load.
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2010-10-12, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Flying and heavy armor
If wearing heavy armour and flying on your light load you lose one third of your flight speed.
The races of the dragons armour restrictions where written by someone that failed to grasp the rules and hate martial characters.
This is all additionally supported by many a monster entry where winged creatures in heavy armour have their speed correctly reduced while still flying.*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*As a DM I run sand-box games.
Challenge me.
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2010-10-12, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Flying and heavy armor
And thus your flight speed may not be capable of maintaining the minimum forward speed requirement: half of your base fly speed, since there are no "after armor reduction" notes on the Maneuverability table. So that would stop you from flying ─ or at least would force you to land at the end of every round of flight.
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2010-10-12, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
You are creating an impediment that doesn't exist. No given reduced flight speed is equal or less than half of the base speed(the actual calculation to adjust speed is, roughly, to reduce it to 70% of the base speed, reaching into the nearest 5' unit). If the creature's maneuverability demands it to keep moving, then the speed loss from armor doesn't have an influence on that, because it'll have to dedicate a move action to it anyway.
Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-10-12 at 02:31 PM.
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2010-10-12, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Flying and heavy armor
You're assuming horizontal flight, which is only 1 of 12 possibilities. As the Maneuverability table shows, all maneuverability classes should be capable of 45 degree up angle flight, which would normally reduce horizontal distance to 2/3 of base flight speed. If you add a further 31% speed reduction because of armor then that 45 degree up angle flight must somehow end on the ground at the end of every turn, because the horizontal movement drops to just 46% of the base speed ─ below the 50% minimum.
The "impediment that doesn't exist" is built into the rules for flight maneuverability. (The 60 degree maximum up angle for average maneuverability reduces horizontal distance to exactly the 0.5 base speed minimum requirement, so imposing any further speed reduction will have fliers dropping out of the sky.) As I see it, these flight rules replace the speed reductions due to armor with a clearly defined set of exceptions. After all, it's no longer the body parts inside the armor that have to move as they do for walking/swimming/burrowing/climbing; it's the wings sticking out, which merely have to be able to sustain the weight.
Unless there's some armor which covers wings and needs to be flexed with each flap, it makes no sense at all to reduce flight speed because of the inflexibility of heavier armors. And I don't know of any D&D armors which cover the wings.
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2010-10-12, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: Flying and heavy armor
You will see that the tables don't show variation on the possible angles and speeds of upwards/turning movement. This means that no one bothered making a more complicated table, not that intermediary movements don't exist(because it's simpler that way)
You can either allow the flight to remain indefinitely as long as it is horizontal or calculate the maximum up angle an armored flier would have.
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You can't assume maneuverability includes armor penalties as nothing of the sort is ever mentioned. On the other hand, both armor and load apply to speed at all times, so any movement that allows either is penalized by that.
The easier alternatives are to ignore the armor or to use the armored speed as base speed. The first uses an assumption that is wrong (maneuverability is never mentioned to influenced by armor) and the other, while acceptable by raw, doesn't make sense (reduced fly speed = reduced minimum forward speed), but they're definitely easier.
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Oh, and finally: We kept assuming the creature was moving only a move action per round. If it performs a double move, moving at 35% speed is enough since it'll move 70% of its speed on that round.Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-10-12 at 06:48 PM.